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Rafa Benitez not to blame for Liverpool FC's awful start

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Mate you do come across as a bit of a snidey cunt when it come to Rafa, your obsession with smarmy remarks and comments are almost as bad as herpes and antynwa.

 

That's selective eyesight, people tend to sweep right past the compliments and select the comment they object to.

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That's selective eyesight, people tend to sweep right past the compliments and select the comment they object to.

 

I can't understand how you have been put into this anti-Rafa notion Steve and have never understood why but that post sums it up perfectly where yourself is concerned.

 

You are probably the most balanced poster on here where it comes to the man to be honest.

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Fast forward 10 years. Another new manager. He will get a shitload of abuse if he doesn't start off well. And the root cause will be 2007-2010.

 

 

and if he is playing the crap football we are now, touching his fat ass on the bottom of the table then he will deserve it.

 

And the root cause will not be 08-10 (an unprecedented time of internal turmoil) it will be Istanbul or the top spot in Europe or 1983-1985 or pick any year in the early 70's cuz that is the standard and what we should strive for, not suggesting it is somehow dignified to realize you are crap, with arguably no way out of the mire but say and do nothing.

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You are probably the most balanced poster on here where it comes to the man to be honest.

 

No, I'm not - nothing like, in fact.

 

But that's part of the problem. I think someone should be able to express a different viewpoint without the words "spastic" or "snidey cunt" appearing afterwards.

 

And it generally comes from people who won't have a bad word said about 'him'. That doesn't bother me that much, but those who continue to paint him as an infallible genius who can do and say what he pleases without response are going to continue to be disappointed.

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Goatboy, you can stick pins in your Rafa doll to you heart's content it won't alter the fact that the vast majority of LFC supporters all over the world would have him back in a heartbeat.

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Some of that is exaggerated though. His gross spend almost doubles his predecessor's, even taking inflation into account which was just clubs like Chelsea and City, United to an extent, throwing their weight around.

 

The whole priest thing has camouflaged that 'wank' :whistle: about 10m net spend, he's getting away with that I notice.

 

As for the 300m squad value, fat lot of good it did us last season and if anyone mentions Gerrard and Torres' troubles that only reinforces the point.

 

Rafa was hugely distracted by the end. Any pretence that wasn't go happen again won't stand up.

 

People accuse me and others of banging on - it's okay for them to keep the Rafa mythology machine at full speed, like - but don't you suspect there's anger in us too?

 

We had the best coach in Europe and now we don't, that's enough for anyone to wig out. What's worse though is the sheer weight of propaganda used to enforce the notion that Rafa, or more accurately his character, played no part in his eventual failure.

 

Even now he seems incapable of letting stuff float by, though the latest isn't inconsequential.

 

Press conference is done, dusted. Wallop Strokeface tonight and focus on training and coaching your team.

 

That it isn't for us still rankles.

 

It is interesting when I said the right conditions you assumed it was solely monetary. I was more talking about the infrastructure, he was promised many things as a manager.

 

A bit like when a world class player signs, he normally has many options at the time he rarely chooses a club for money. More what he can achieve at the club. This is generally about medals for a player but for a manager they can influence results and the environment so it is about a legacy also.

 

When I talk about the right conditions I refer to the conditions that Wenger has had to work under. The club has had a board with long term aims they have invested in a stadia and there has been a consistent and clear plan. There is trust and it is widely accepted he had an excellent confidant in Dein initially that precipitated the job being made easier.

 

This never happened for Rafa the club was virtually up for sale the whole time firstly under Moores and then indirectly under Hicks & Gillette.

 

Now it would be foolhardy to acknowledge Rafa never overstepped the lines at times. One of his biggest failings for me was he didn't seem to have a confidant someone to reign him in at times someone at the club he could trust.

 

Lets be honest though it took Ferguson to learn after picking the wrong battle with JP McManus and Magnier after he had been in the job for 16 years that you have to be selective.

 

Where as you seem to claim Rafa instigated many of the problem and infer he was like this at Valencia and you consider it almost a trait of his personality.

 

I suggest no manager would have been able to behave in an acceptable manager for you and garner excellent results under the conditions. In other words few top class managers who have been mislead will just be able to shut up and coach the team.

 

In fact as we are finding out under Roy even the poorer managers cant keep their gob shut.

 

So like a player a manager has limited time to choose the right job so I can see why it still rankles.

 

Let us hope should NESV appoint a new manager or stick with what they have they get the "right" conditions to work within. It is the only way to ensure history does not repeat itself.

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Apart from suggesting Valencia were pretty stable and it still didn't suit him, I'd say you were correct.

 

And we also need stability and patience from supporters. Hopefully all the Hodgson shite is an exorcism, the culmination of a special sequence of events and clash of specific unworkable personalities, and not a result of the modern 'now now now' infestation finally reaching L4.

 

Kenny left in 91, we then had 4 managers in 19 years and Souness got less than three of those. We're about to dump one in months. I don't happen to agree that Rafa was "forced out" anyway, but certainly not for one bad season where we nearly reached another cup final. That was also a set of special circumstances, where the best wishes and motives of the manager himself have never been investigated fully or even mentioned, he just 'happened' to land sunny side up. Again.

 

I'd love them to give it to someone like Di Matteo, say take your time son and everybody knuckle down for a long, hard crawl to the top with good passing, attacking football as the cornerstone.

 

But NESV are 300m short and they'll want it back somehow and not 5-10 years hence either. I'm sure we're probably going to muddle into quick-fix territory.

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What we need is a coherant plan!

 

Other than, here is some money go and win the league, can anybody pin down the actual long term plan for the club? And by that, I mean in the way Arsenal and United in 88 went about setting one.

 

Lets take Rafa, comes in 2004 with a massive rebuilding job and is immediately expected to challenge, money is tight but investment is coming! And that was it for the next three seasons, wait until the investment but make do with what you can, the investment turned into a couple of crooked parasites and four years after taking the job we suddenly start looking at the youth development and the reserves!

 

So what do we do in the summer? Appoint a 63 year old, who brings his even older coach to the club, short term thinking again.

 

The club needs a plan, we know our aims, and they are too challenge so how do we go about doing that? And once we know what this plan is, get the manager in to implement that.

 

The stadium has replaced new owners as the 'must have' whilst we continue to pay money for the Konchesky's and Pennants, and nobody has said, this is what we are going to do. That is why there is no patience, we all still think that challenging is what we are about, what our aim is and Roy seems to think it is avoiding relegation!

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Their is two ways of looking at Instanbul (The part of the article I questioned). Firstly to get that squad past Juventus, Chelsea etc was monumental, no question. When you look at the final, however, we were very fortunate, and Rafa got it completely wrong (as he did in Athens, even though it doesn't diminsh the feat of getting to the final). Apart from 6 magical, unexplained minutes, we got murdered.

 

I dont think we got murdered, yes we were fortunate, but we started well and should have had a stone wall penalty before Milan literally broke down the pitch and scored. We get the penalty and you can chalk off one of their goals too. Also how Gattuso stayed on the field after we got our penalty I'll never know. Alot is made of the being 3-0 down and admittedly it could have been 4, but it could just as easily have been 2-1 or better.

 

Milan also got two of their goals on the break, while we were chasing the game.

 

The manager had some decisions forced on him, but he also made some very good ones, going to 3 at the back and luckily we got the three goals very quickly, but Ancelloti being no mug soon spotted the three at the back and threw on winger Serginho (i think thats the spelling) wingers can often thrive in the space behind the midfield and three man defence, Rafa responded by moving Stevie back there.

 

Yes we had luck, but to win any knockout competition you need luck, no unlucky side has ever won a cup in my opinion. Even when Barca mauled United a couple of years ago, they could have been buried in the first 15-20 mins.

 

With regard to Athens, he may have got it wrong, but we were the better side that night, without creating too much, Milan had the fortune that night.

 

In Cardiff, Pepe had a mare until the shootout, hardly the managers fault.

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What we need is a coherant plan!

 

Other than, here is some money go and win the league, can anybody pin down the actual long term plan for the club? And by that, I mean in the way Arsenal and United in 88 went about setting one.

 

Lets take Rafa, comes in 2004 with a massive rebuilding job and is immediately expected to challenge, money is tight but investment is coming! And that was it for the next three seasons, wait until the investment but make do with what you can, the investment turned into a couple of crooked parasites and four years after taking the job we suddenly start looking at the youth development and the reserves!

 

So what do we do in the summer? Appoint a 63 year old, who brings his even older coach to the club, short term thinking again.

 

The club needs a plan, we know our aims, and they are too challenge so how do we go about doing that? And once we know what this plan is, get the manager in to implement that.

 

The stadium has replaced new owners as the 'must have' whilst we continue to pay money for the Konchesky's and Pennants, and nobody has said, this is what we are going to do. That is why there is no patience, we all still think that challenging is what we are about, what our aim is and Roy seems to think it is avoiding relegation!

 

 

It's possible a bit of foresight was shown there.

 

Not much point giving the job to a young, progressive, long-term team builder when you don't actually know who will be running the club or whether we even have a future!

 

Given the hysteria about spending on players - even when Rafa had bought 100m's worth in 15 months it still wasn't enough for him or the fans - it hardly seems likely that everyone's going to just accept a couple of years in the 'wilderness'.

 

Personally I'd go for the complete overhaul and wait; I'm sick of watching so many players earn so much and do so little. Maybe there are managers out there who can not only inspire men to full dedication but get them to over achieve with the ability they have, and can spot a gifted player that won't break the bank.

 

But that's a revolution. The new owners may come with full confidence that they know what to do, but in a new country and a new sport they may fudge and bow to currently accepted 'wisdom'.

Edited by goatboy59

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It's possible a bit of foresight was shown there.

 

Not much point giving the job to a young, progressive, long-term team builder when you don't actually know who will be running the club or whether we even have a future!

 

Given the hysteria about spending on players - even when Rafa had bought 100m's worth in 15 months it still wasn't enough for him or the fans - it hardly seems likely that everyone's going to just accept a couple of years in the 'wilderness'.

 

Personally I'd go for the complete overhaul and wait; I'm sick of watching so many players earn so much and do so little. Maybe there are managers out there who can not only inspire men to full dedication but get them to over achieve with the ability they have, and can spot a gifted player that won't break the bank.

 

But that's a revolution. The new owners may come with full confidence that they know what to do, but in a new country and a new sport they may fudge and bow to currently accepted 'wisodom'.

 

I can't see NESV bowing to conventional wisdom like that. Hopefully they're examining the underage structures at a club like Arsenal and the administration at somewhere like Bayern and various other successful models besides.

 

Given the consequent windfall involved, I think they'll still want at least a crack at fourth place this season, which should necessitate at least some big changes in January.

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It's possible a bit of foresight was shown there.

 

Not much point giving the job to a young, progressive, long-term team builder when you don't actually know who will be running the club or whether we even have a future!

 

Given the hysteria about spending on players - even when Rafa had bought 100m's worth in 15 months it still wasn't enough for him or the fans - it hardly seems likely that everyone's going to just accept a couple of years in the 'wilderness'.

 

Personally I'd go for the complete overhaul and wait; I'm sick of watching so many players earn so much and do so little. Maybe there are managers out there who can not only inspire men to full dedication but get them to over achieve with the ability they have, and can spot a gifted player that won't break the bank.

 

But that's a revolution. The new owners may come with full confidence that they know what to do, but in a new country and a new sport they may fudge and bow to currently accepted 'wisdom'.

 

 

I do understand why the club went for Roy! He was to them an option to suggest that they still had ambition, at least to the media, whilst keeping things steady. I argued at the time, it was not a football decision, and what we are seeing now is evidence of that, at least in my opinion.

 

The problem Rafa had was that the club, and him, argued for patience to set up a long term plan after four seasons and after the desired investment had arrived! It did, even to me, an apologist, seem like a shift in direction and an unplanned one at that, had this been the plan from the off then he the pressure would have been less and the increased panic to sell would have been less.

 

As you said more Hypia's less Dioufs, more Carraghers less waiting for Gerrards.

 

I see no direction for the club at the moment!

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Here's the thing. Once the genie is let out of the bottle, you can't put it back in.

 

I'd like to think that the majority of the match-going Liverpool support still try to adhere to "the old ways" (as misty eyed as that sounds). Part of which involves supporting the manager, supporting the team, and giving every new manager and player a fair shake of the stick.

 

But, there has been an increasing minority of, quite frankly, boo-boys who have disgraced themselves in the way they handled themselves over Benitez. And once that kind of shit was allowed to stand, you can't stop it resurfacing again and again. Now its a different bunch of people, and its all over a different manager - but the root cause is the same.

 

Allowing a small crowd of boo-boys to get away with what their bullshit.

 

Cancers like that should have been eradicated when they first took root.

 

Fast forward 10 years. Another new manager. He will get a shitload of abuse if he doesn't start off well. And the root cause will be 2007-2010.

 

You can't put the genie back into the bottle. And for that, you can blame the Antyna's et al of this world, along with some of the "senior" members of this forum.

 

Fanbases, and their reputations and codes of conduct, take generations to build. And only a couple of years to destroy.

 

PS: you don't think that Rafa got "10-times" the abuse that Roy has gotten? Rafa never lead a team into the relegation zone. He was getting abuse ON THIS FORUM by aforementioned cancerous boo-boys, when he was leading the team to 2ND PLACE. Can you, even for a minute, contemplate the amount of abuse Rafa would have received if he lead a team to 18th place?

 

 

Spot on chap.

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Apart from suggesting Valencia were pretty stable and it still didn't suit him, I'd say you were correct.

 

 

Ah the mighty Valencia? Remind me again what happened to them when Rafa left and how long it took to get the club back to a decent level. They will probably never achieve those dizzy heights again. Much like us, I fear.

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Ah the mighty Valencia? Remind me again what happened to them when Rafa left and how long it took to get the club back to a decent level. They will probably never achieve those dizzy heights again. Much like us, I fear.

 

Or Inter after Mourinho left. Ooops...

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Or Inter after Mourinho left. Ooops...

 

Yeah.. Inter are fucked aren't they. 1 Trophy in the bag. 2nd in the league and 2 points away from qualifying from the group stages of the CL. All with pretty much zero spend this summer...Oh and they're playing "better" football.

 

Mourinho is a great manager; and the Inter fans love him for what he achieved with them. The CL being the significant achievement. The title had already been won under Mancini several times albeit against a backdrop of all the other major players being significantly weakened, namely Juve & AC Milan. Unfortunately for Rafa those clubs are again on the rise having invested heavily this summer.

 

If Mourinho was the primary driver behind the success of Chelsea & Inter; like Rafa was behind Valencia & Liverpool, perhaps it's worth looking at the respective clubs when both Managers left?

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Yeah.. Inter are fucked aren't they. 1 Trophy in the bag. 2nd in the league and 2 points away from qualifying from the group stages of the CL. All with pretty much zero spend this summer...Oh and they're playing "better" football.

 

Mourinho is a great manager; and the Inter fans love him for what he achieved with them. The CL being the significant achievement. The title had already been won under Mancini several times albeit against a backdrop of all the other major players being significantly weakened, namely Juve & AC Milan. Unfortunately for Rafa those clubs are again on the rise having invested heavily this summer.

 

If Mourinho was the primary driver behind the success of Chelsea & Inter; like Rafa was behind Valencia & Liverpool, perhaps it's worth looking at the respective clubs when both Managers left?

 

Mourinho has always left his club in better shape than he found them and more importantly he has left them as a winning club not a team losing and going backwards.

 

Real is the big test for him, overhauling Barca would be his best achievment IMO

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Mourinho has always left his club in better shape than he found them and more importantly he has left them as a winning club not a team losing and going backwards.

 

Real is the big test for him, overhauling Barca would be his best achievment IMO

 

Mourinho; has always gone to clubs with massive investment in the teams either prior to his reign or during. Fantastic coach; no doubt and his achievement at Porto still stand head and shoulders of anything else he's done in the game. But Chelsea winning the title is no shocker; nor is Inter; or even Real who have spent in excess of £400m to create their team. He's taking teams on from a relative safe position. I'd like to see how he does in an unstable team with unrealistic expectation with little investment.

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If Mourinho was the primary driver behind the success of Chelsea & Inter; like Rafa was behind Valencia & Liverpool, perhaps it's worth looking at the respective clubs when both Managers left?

 

Wouldn't it be more enlightening to look at those same clubs before he arrived?

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Ah the mighty Valencia? Remind me again what happened to them when Rafa left and how long it took to get the club back to a decent level. They will probably never achieve those dizzy heights again. Much like us, I fear.

 

Left them with a league title and a UEFA Cup, right?

 

I can see one slight difference between them and us.

 

No one is arguing he wasn't a vital component, either for them or for us. What we were discussing is the idea that Rafa thrives under stable, secure hierarchy. No argument, except for when people say he becomes a secure, stable individual himself.

 

But they're all vital components aren't they? Pako, Alonso, Heighway etc.

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