Rafa Benitez not to blame for Liverpool FC's awful start

[gmac]

You're letting yourselves off the hook too easily. The removal of Rafa and the arrival of Hodgson (or another manager of similar calibre) were NOT seperate events.

 

We had a manager with an excellent pedigree (2 La Liga's), and who had already achieved some great things with Liverpool (1 European Cup, 1 FA Cup, runners up in European Cup and League).

 

And more importantly, he had demonstrated a willingness to fight his corner in a screwed up club, where another manager of similar calibre would just have said "FUCK YOU" and walked off to another top club.

 

(seconds after he leaves Liverpool, the reigning European and Italian champions come knocking at his door)

 

The boo boys were told, time and again, that whatever his mistakes, force Rafa out now and his replacement would be nowhere near his pedigree. The boo boys were salivating over Mourinho (sickening), Hiddink, etc.

 

That was all a lie. You were lying to yourselves, and everyone else. In the pre-NESV climate, the ONLY type of manager we would have gotten to replace Rafa is exactly the type we HAVE gotten.

 

The boo boys were all told this, repeatedly. So they can't claim now that their hands are clean. They asked for it. They got it.

 

er.. no, i didn't want benitez sacked, loads did, all i meant you could understand it if there was a manager of the same calibre or above to replace him with. lieing to myself, fuck me don't put words into my gob, i'm arguing about this all the time i fucking loved benitez, he was responsible for my best memories as an lfc fan, a fucking legend and did the fuck i want him sacked.

[isr]

er.. no, i didn't want benitez sacked, loads did, all i meant you could understand it if there was a manager of the same calibre or above to replace him with. lieing to myself, fuck me don't put words into my gob, i'm arguing about this all the time i fucking loved benitez, he was responsible for my best memories as an lfc fan, a fucking legend and did the fuck i want him sacked.

 

gmac, I quoted you because I was responding to the argument separating the 2 things (Benitez out, Hodgson in). As for who is "you" and who were "they" - take that as more of a general pointer towards the "boo boys". The more vocal of them, we all know who they are.

 

I left 2 "you's" in that post. In hindsight, I should have made all references more general. My mistake.

[The Special One]

Well I never saw or wanted Hodgson as a replacement but I still believe bringing Rafa back or even keeping him on would have been a mistake.

 

There were plenty of options available including Dalglish and Pellegrini who claims he was approached back then as well. I think the obvious reason we didn't attract the best was because of the owners. If all this process for NESV was started 6 months ago you can only look to the men who agreed to put Hodgson on a long term contract. I just don't seem convinced by a lot of pro-Rafa supporters claiming he was the best we could have had. He clearly wasn't. I'm thankful for the memories he gave us and I'd never erase those.

 

That's just my two cents on the matter. I've said repeatedly I just don't like being painted with the same brush as those who went overboard, booed him or said 'anyone would be better'. Just like most pro-Rafa supporters don't like the 'He's gone, get over it' line.

[Jose Jones]

Well I never saw or wanted Hodgson as a replacement but I still believe bringing Rafa back or even keeping him on would have been a mistake.

 

There were plenty of options available including Dalglish and Pellegrini who claims he was approached back then as well. I think the obvious reason we didn't attract the best was because of the owners. If all this process for NESV was started 6 months ago you can only look to the men who agreed to put Hodgson on a long term contract. I just don't seem convinced by a lot of pro-Rafa supporters claiming he was the best we could have had. He clearly wasn't. I'm thankful for the memories he gave us and I'd never erase those.

 

That's just my two cents on the matter. I've said repeatedly I just don't like being painted with the same brush as those who went overboard, booed him or said 'anyone would be better'. Just like most pro-Rafa supporters don't like the 'He's gone, get over it' line.

 

You're wrong there TSO.

 

Everyone likes "He's gone, get over it".

[billypilgrimnz]

Rafa was abysmal in his final season. Some poor, poor decisions. Let's not pretend he was definitely taking us to the promised land - he was just another manager who had lost his way after a promising start.

[Kobayashi Maru]

A nicely balanced article I thought. Calls into account and highlights the xenophobic hypocritical nature and double standards employed by the English media, especially those within football.

[Tyler Durden]

There are also those like myself who foresaw what type of manager Liverpool would attract.

 

Like it or not the truth is a lot of the people banging the drum loudest for Rafa's dismissal were also the ones who believed we could still attract the best talent.

 

Maybe not the best reason to keep Rafa and certainly not my only reason, but what's happened since has been all too predictable.

 

Your spot on mate, how many times last year I seen people on here saying the likes of "were Liverpool, every manager in the world would crawl across broken glass to manage us" , it probably was time for Benitez to go but never at the expense of Hodgeson a vastly inferior manager.

As soon as Mourihno ruled himself out quite staunchly we should have knew what we had done.

[Trucker Paddy]

 

Unfortunately, two of those total fuckwits are currently playing in our team.

 

If that's a referal to carragher and gerrad, you want to get a grip, 2 men who would give blood for the club.

Anyway back to the article, not the worst I've seen but "a handful of questionable transfers" come off it, every single big transfer after torres and yossi failed, the author has no problem highlighting Poulsen and Koncheskey so a bit of balance is required

[Carradona]

You're letting yourselves off the hook too easily. The removal of Rafa and the arrival of Hodgson (or another manager of similar calibre) were NOT seperate events.

 

We had a manager with an excellent pedigree (2 La Liga's), and who had already achieved some great things with Liverpool (1 European Cup, 1 FA Cup, runners up in European Cup and League).

 

And more importantly, he had demonstrated a willingness to fight his corner in a screwed up club, where another manager of similar calibre would just have said "FUCK YOU" and walked off to another top club.

 

(seconds after he leaves Liverpool, the reigning European and Italian champions come knocking at his door)

 

The boo boys were told, time and again, that whatever his mistakes, force Rafa out now and his replacement would be nowhere near his pedigree. The boo boys were salivating over Mourinho (sickening), Hiddink, etc.

 

That was all a lie. You were lying to yourselves, and everyone else. In the pre-NESV climate, the ONLY type of manager we would have gotten to replace Rafa is exactly the type we HAVE gotten.

 

The boo boys were all told this, repeatedly. So they can't claim now that their hands are clean. They asked for it. They got it.

 

Am I one of these big, bad, boo boys?

 

I really hope I am.

[Best Believe It]

I'm getting very very bored of this now. The sooner we get a top manager and put an end to this whole discussion, the better.

[Antynwa]

The current squad to all intents in purposes is made up mostly of Rafa's players. Bar Raul, Konchesky and Cole.

 

I'm not saying he's completely responsible. But look what he left Hodgson, a disgruntled Argentinian, mediocre players across the pitch and a disenchanted squad.

 

He's not had it easy Roy, thats not to say he hasn't helped himself.

[Benitaur]

Thats precisely the point. Rafa may have had a bad season. But he was building the club from the youth up, like Wenger has (who has the full support of his board BTW)

 

Attracting even Maurinho or Hiddink is just a short term stopgap, as they were never the type to stay at any one place, as their record proves. Waiting for Carra or someone like that to take over? They have to prove themselves first

 

I laugh every time I hear fans bringing up Dalglish as if there is some secret recipe to winning the league. You win it once, you have this secret.

 

NOONE pre-Rafa has had to deal with such a dominant Manc side and manager, nor the spending power of Chelsea and City, nor the teams Wenger builds.

 

In Rafa's 6 years, his rivals are:

 

the best manager in the Manc's history

the best manager in Arsenal's history

the best manager in Chelsea's history (Maureen, or maybe Ancellotti as time will prove)

 

and other lesser league winners of other leagues like MON, Erickssen, Scolari etc.

 

Is there any doubt Roy would be proven inadequate? Is there any doubt even a league winner of another top league like La Liga or Serie A would struggle to win the league without backing?

 

Putting unrealistic fantasies aside, how do you think realistically Kenny would do, with the backing Rafa was given?

 

In this backdrop, Rafa has done very well IMO. I would go further and say, he would have won us the league at least once if he was backed the way other teams intending to win the league were backed

 

Overall in the same period, Rafa was better than Wenger overall. Only teams with higher spending have won the league in the same period

 

As for the arguments that Rafa was too busy playing politics, thats nonsense and you know it. If he was backed, what politics is there to play? Do you see Wenger or Fergie playing politics with their own board? No, because they are given the resources to win.

[CWD82]

The current squad to all intents in purposes is made up mostly of Rafa's players. Bar Raul, Konchesky and Cole.

 

I'm not saying he's completely responsible. But look what he left Hodgson, a disgruntled Argentinian, mediocre players across the pitch and a disenchanted squad.

 

He's not had it easy Roy, thats not to say he hasn't helped himself.

 

Hodgson has favoured a starting eleven containing Poulsen, Konchesky, Cole and Meirelles. That's 4 out of the eleven

 

He then has Gerrard, Torres and Reina who would get in any team. That's seven out of the eleven

 

He offered Carragher a new contract so that's eight out of the eleven

 

So what we're basically saying is their are 3 signings for the first team that he may want to make because he isn't happy with what he's got. Centreback, wideman and a rightback.

 

That's 3 positions in the first 11 that he appears to believe he needs to strengthen. Not exactly the end of the world and definitely not a team that should be bottom half let alone bottom 3.

 

How many times were we bottom 3 under the previous manager?

[Major Tom]

The removal of Rafa and the arrival of Hodgson (or another manager of similar calibre) were NOT seperate events.

 

Of course they are.

 

The departure of Rafa and the arrival of a new manager are inextricably linked, granted. But the departure of Rafa's and Hodgson's arrival? No chance.

 

Could of been any number of managers but the club made the wrong choice. I do see you have this caveat in your post but that is one massive caveat. Pellegrini is not in Hodgson's league and he would have jumped at the chance.

[Benitaur]

The current squad to all intents in purposes is made up mostly of Rafa's players. Bar Raul, Konchesky and Cole.

 

I'm not saying he's completely responsible. But look what he left Hodgson, a disgruntled Argentinian, mediocre players across the pitch and a disenchanted squad.

 

He's not had it easy Roy, thats not to say he hasn't helped himself.

 

What he left behind was arguably:

 

The best keeper in the league (top 5 in the world)

The best defensive midfielder in the world

The best all round midfielder in the world

The best striker in the world

 

Turned Carra into a world class cb (which will never happen under another manager). And Holland, Brazilian, England and Argentinian regulars such as Kuyt, Johnson, Lucas and Maxi.

 

BTW, Skrtel and Agger are starting regulars in their national teams too and are considered top young CBs.

 

Piss poor team indeed, Rafa left us with.

[TommyW]

fair play to isr, he's right

[Major Tom]

fair play to isr, he's right

 

Except that he isn't!

[Red Banjo]

Yay! Another Rafa thread. Was just thinking this is what we need.

 

How about both managers are to blame for the current problems?

[Hermes]

NOONE pre-Rafa has had to deal with such a dominant Manc side and manager, nor the spending power of Chelsea and City, nor the teams Wenger builds.

 

 

Man City? Are you serious, what did they achieve in the 6 seasons Rafa was here?

[TheResonator]

Could of been any number of managers but the club made the wrong choice. I do see you have this caveat in your post but that is one massive caveat. Pellegrini is not in Hodgson's league and he would have jumped at the chance.

 

Opening article is a good, balanced read and ISR is absolutely right in what he says.

 

Pellegrini might have jumped at the chance (I personally wanted him to come to the club as soon as Rafa left, and I'm even more keen for him to come here now) but our board, which was comprised of Purslow, Broughton, Ayre, Hicks and Gillett were hardly the most 'football savvy' and - as Broughton effectively said in response to a Liverpool fan by e-mail, were significantly guided by the media.

 

Hodgson was riding on the back of an LMA award and a much publicised Europa League final. The press were desperate to get him in a higher profile job. Say what you want about Pellegrini, Dalglish, et al - it was only ever going to be Roy Hodgson or Martin O'Neill that got the job. To Purslow and Broughton, Pellegrini was probably just a manager at a club that spent over 200 million and failed to win the league title.

 

Moreover, it was clear that the person who agreed to take the role on would have to operate on a sell to buy basis (even less than that, think we turned something like a 9m profit this summer?), with a hostile board, a CEO who knew nothing about football and had reputedly tried to make signings above the previous manager, owners who were hated by the fans and trying to refinance, etc. etc.

 

This idea that 'he had to go but we brought the wrong man in' is nonsense. Even Kenny, who many were and are clamouring for, is a colossal gamble and would be a sentimental appointment for a club in our position. He's been out of the game for years and he'd be thrown onto a ship in troubled waters. I actually hoped he wouldn't get it because to see him pilloried in the way that Benitez was if he had, say, lead us to the position we're in now, would be to temper his previous achievements with an appalling epilogue.

 

Another point against the 'he had to go' mantra - why? If he was still in now and we were still underachieving, what would the damage be? Would we be worse off than with Roy? No, our position would be far better. NESV come in and they can legitimately say: "we want to appoint our own man. We respect what Rafa has done but we want to conduct an overhaul of the club." Rafa leaves, we appoint a new manager and then we have had two managers in a year instead of (in all likelihood) three. We also are at less risk of the slippery slope of consecutive manager sackings, for there is always the risk that Hodgson's successor will struggle initially, too. What do we do then? Sack another manager? Things could easily become farcical.

 

Our league position would probably be better if Rafa was still here, but our opportunities and the politics of sacking our manager and having a 'fresh start' would definitely be improved. The only hypothetical argument I can think of that would run contrary to this would be in line with the rumours that Gerrard would have left if Benitez stayed, or what-have-you. Not only do I not believe those rumours, but if our captains mentality was really 'I'll sweat blood for this club. But only if the right people are in charge, and we have the right players. Otherwise I'll sweat blood elsewhere' - fine, he could go. But I'd give him more credit than that and I think he'd have stayed either way.

[rondeco]

It's not like you to ignore something to suit your agenda, Hermes..

 

Oh wait, it is..

[rondeco]

Am I one of these big, bad, boo boys?

 

I really hope I am.

 

What's your point?

[Hermes]

It's not like you to ignore something to suit your agenda, Hermes..

 

Oh wait, it is..

 

What, that Man City prevented Rafa from finishing 6th instead of 7th?

[Major Tom]

Opening article is a good, balanced read and ISR is absolutely right in what he says.

 

 

Am more than happy to disagree with you both on this.

[ritchie]

It's a rumour thats been going round, suppose truth will out eventually and if thats the case a lot of people will think of them differently than they do now.

 

It's not a rumour that Carragher has three times over the last few weeks publically defended Roy Hodgson and demanded he be given more time when no other player has, and when he never once backed Rafa.

 

Rightly or wrongly, he's fully behind Hodgson.