Israel president Shimon Peres accuses Britain of pro-Arab bias

[dennis tooth]

You make it sound like peace, safety etc and democracy are independent of each other.

 

There's a reason that democracies are the safest, wealthiest, most peaceful countries on the planet.

 

It's because people who have the essentials for life want to have some measure of control over their society.

 

In turn, democracy helps to maintain the essentials of life; the government has to look after its people if the people have control over who the government is.

 

It's certainly true in this country that a lot of people don't realise how lucky they are to live in a wealthy liberal democracy.

 

 

 

 

Ever heard of this dude named Hitler. Or the USA.

 

And Im pretty sure wherever you look that democracy followed immense wealth rather than created the immense wealth, the immense wealth part came from wars etc, certainly here, I dont think we got rich off potatoes and Cox apples.

 

Our own democratic system was imposed from France on our king after we lost a war with them.

 

Does he get anything wright?

[VladimirIlyich]

Nobody's forcing either of you to stick around. Might have to wait a few weeks to get a passport though.

 

Or you could always put your money where your mouth is and start your own grassroots party with the aim to end our "plutocracy".

Sounds like the rantings of a fascist which you seem to accuse others on here of.

[Jairzinho]

How are plutocracies usually ended?

[stringvest]

Nobody's forcing either of you to stick around. Might have to wait a few weeks to get a passport though.

 

".

This sounds like the line Israel will use once this round of hostilities has stopped in Gaza as part of Operation Ethnic Cleanse.

[Gnasher]

Nobody's forcing either of you to stick around. Might have to wait a few weeks to get a passport though.Or you could always put your money where your mouth is and start your own grassroots party with the aim to end our "plutocracy".

As hitler said to the Jews in early 30's Germany

[KopOut]

I think people aren't arsed about democracy, they just want the same thing, they want peace, safety, food and shelter, anything else is a bonus. When democracy can't provide that they'll turn elsewhere, to a Hitler or a Putin.

 

Democracy sort of works for us because we're kept fed and watered, if that stopped working for us we'd have no problem putting Nigel Farage and some Imperial Stormtroopers in charge.

 

The idea of getting farmers in Afghanistan to go to a voting booth and give a shit is almost Monty Python esque.

 

Also, Iran is a democracy isn't it? Didn't they just radically change their policy towards the west following free and fair elections? I've also read their society is, despite what the yanks would have us believe, is pretty open with quite an urbane middle class.

 

Muslims are probably like Christians, some are mental Louis Theroux fodder lunes and others probably only put it down on doctors forms out of habit.

 

I don't think there's anything inherent about religion that makes them prone to these types of regimes. If so. How do you explain the 'godless' Soviet Union and modern China?

Who was it that said "Religion is the opiate of the people"?

 

You know, Stalin never destroyed the Russian Orthodox Church. All those Russian Religious structures are in tact, together with their congregations.

 

Hitler died a Catholic, too, from memory.

 

Revolution has always been about inequality - completely unbalanced distribution of scarce resources.

 

Today, however, we have unbalanced distribution of ABUNDANT resources.

[KopOut]

On top of this. the Democratic process has been totally undermined by the monetry creation process - monetry policy including taxation, is the same fucked up process regardless of which elected party takes control. TREASURY acts independantly, beyond democracy. Thats why its called 'the money power' by so many.

[stringvest]

The money power?

[Strontium]

Sounds like the rantings of a fascist which you seem to accuse others on here of.

 

Yeah, suggesting people get involved in the democratic process if they aren't happy with the options available is a typical fascist trait, dontcha know.

 

You don't half talk some shit sometimes.

[KopOut]

The money power?

Probably on youtube.

 

Essentially, even during a regime change, keeping an eye on whats going on behind the scenws with regard to monetry policy, can be difficult.

 

For instance, Gaddafi - overthrown, supposedly a nice democracy put in place after rebel takeover, but I bet the central bank has everybody by the short and curlies; in other words poverty is the short order of the day.

 

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

[Stu Monty]

Nobody's forcing either of you to stick around. Might have to wait a few weeks to get a passport though.

 

Or you could always put your money where your mouth is and start your own grassroots party with the aim to end our "plutocracy".

You've pulled that utterly pathetic comment out before when you can't defend the current system/situation. Painfully shit stuff.

 

I'm waiting for a sensible rebuttal, or an acceptance, of both points.

 

1.The US believes in a deity. How does that not scupper your point.

 

2.This is a plutocracy.

[KopOut]

Yeah, suggesting people get involved in the democratic process if they aren't happy with the options available is a typical fascist trait, dontcha know.

 

You don't half talk some shit sometimes.

You are spoton. We have a process.

 

The current problem, is that the blind are leading the blind

On display, we have several types of red meat, but what we perhaps desire, is chicken.

 

Or, its like having to choose between the christian party, islamic party or jewish party, and make your vote count, when in fact, one is an atheist.

[KopOut]

[VladimirIlyich]

Yeah, suggesting people get involved in the democratic process if they aren't happy with the options available is a typical fascist trait, dontcha know.

 

You don't half talk some shit sometimes.

Interesting you only had a go back at me but as another poster pointed out most of us cant get involved due to financial penalty.

Apart from a meaningless vote at present that is.

[ZonkoVille77]

Can't remember posting my last few posts over the weekend. Must relax in the aul gin.

[Gnasher]

Sounds like the rantings of a fascist which you seem to accuse others on here of.

No no no, you've read between the lines, what stronts is actually saying is if you do not like the status quo take the good ol democratic route, its quite simple, all you have to do is,

 

 

A, Have a quick whip round, about 10 billion quid should get you off the ground, go to the the main media outlets to get your message out to the masses (Rupert Murdoch, Paul Darcey etc seem reasonable chaps, if not try the BBC) and see what happens.

 

Or,

 

B, get a passport and fuck off.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

[Strontium]

You've pulled that utterly pathetic comment out before when you can't defend the current system/situation. Painfully shit stuff.

 

All I'm saying is if anyone isn't happy in this country, and they can't be arsed trying to change things, then the option to go elsewhere is always available.

 

This isn't Cuba, after all; we don't ban anyone from leaving.

 

I'm waiting for a sensible rebuttal, or an acceptance, of both points.

 

1.The US believes in a deity. How does that not scupper your point.

 

2.This is a plutocracy.

 

What point is supposed to be scuppered by pointing out that most Americans believe in God? The US also has separation of church and state as one of its founding principles. It even has gay marriage. Contrast with most countries in the Middle East, where being gay is punishable by prison or death.

 

You're entitled to your opinion about our democracy. Needless to say I don't agree.

[Strontium]

No no no, you've read between the lines, what stronts is actually saying is if you do not like the status quo take the good ol democratic route, its quite simple, all you have to do is,

 

 

A, Have a quick whip round, about 10 billion quid should get you off the ground, go to the the main media outlets to get your message out to the masses (Rupert Murdoch, Paul Darcey etc seem reasonable chaps, if not try the BBC) and see what happens.

 

Or,

 

B, get a passport and fuck off.

 

 

False dichotomies ftw.

 

Amazingly enough I have been able to stand for election on numerous occasions, without having to spend 10 quid, let alone 10 billion.

 

Would love to know who these political parties with billions to spend are, incidentally.

 

Of course, I did have to get off my arse for an hour and collect some signatures from the neighbours.

 

The point is: do SOMETHING. Don't just moan about things. Contrary to popular misbelief, it isn't particularly expensive to have a say in things, all it costs is time and effort.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

 

False dichotomies ftw.

 

Amazingly enough I have been able to stand for election on numerous occasions, without having to spend 10 quid, let alone 10 billion.

 

Would love to know who these political parties with billions to spend are, incidentally.

 

Of course, I did have to get off my arse for an hour and collect some signatures from the neighbours.

 

The point is: do SOMETHING. Don't just moan about things. Contrary to popular misbelief, it isn't particularly expensive to have a say in things, all it costs is time and effort.

 

I think you are missing the point. The above isn't the issue. The issue is competing against the bigger parties. And to do that, takes money. A lot of it.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

All I'm saying is if anyone isn't happy in this country, and they can't be arsed trying to change things, then the option to go elsewhere is always available.

 

This isn't Cuba, after all; we don't ban anyone from leaving.

 

 

 

What point is supposed to be scuppered by pointing out that most Americans believe in God? The US also has separation of church and state as one of its founding principles. It even has gay marriage. Contrast with most countries in the Middle East, where being gay is punishable by prison or death.

 

You're entitled to your opinion about our democracy. Needless to say I don't agree.

 

Why Religion Rules American Politics

 

Religion is important for American politics because religion is important for Americans.¹Yet, there are factors in American political life that amplify the role of religion in a way that is not seen in other developed countries.

 

For a developed country, the U.S. is extraordinarily high on religion. Thus 65 percent of Americans say that religion is important in their daily lives compared to just 17 percent of Swedes, 19 percent of Danes, and 24 percent of Japanese.²

 

Why America is more religious than Europe

There are several likely reasons why Americans say that they are so much more religious than Europeans. One may be that they exaggerate their own religiosity in the same way that they claim about twice the attendance rates relative to people actually showing up in church.¹

 

There is also a large immigrant population, many of whom hail from countries that are poor and comparatively religious. Immigrant groups that happen to be linguistically isolated may remain quite religious even if the broader society becomes increasingly secular.¹

 

Life is more difficult in the U.S. than in Europe by several measures even though Europe is currently in an economic decline.³ 

 

Problems here range from health problems and lower life expectancy, to higher crime rates, and relative lack of involvement in the community.⁴All of these problems are bound up with inequality - with a chasm between the living conditions of rich and poor.⁴ This gap has widened in recent decades and reveals holes in social safety nets relative to Europe.⁵

 

So Americans feel far less secure economically, and in relation to their health and well-being than the overall wealth of the country in terms of GDP per capita would predict.⁴This existential insecurity provides a fertile ground for religion.¹

 

Historians are fond of attributing American religiosity to historical factors such as the Puritan founders. Yet history counts for little in these matters given that virtually every country has a devout past -- specifically the currently secular countries of Europe.

 

Why religion is emphasized in American politics

Religion influences American politics to a degree not seen in other developed countries. Despite the constitutional firewall between church and state, national politicians hardly ever give a major speech without invoking religion.

 

The president is forever asking God to bless America, sending his prayers to victims of disasters, hosting religious leaders, and extolling religious values. Such advocacy of religion is unheard of in Europe but that may be because the majority is no longer religious and because voting members of the native population (as distinct from immigrants) are not very devout.

 

In America, religion is much more a part of public life whatever the constitution says. There are various reasons for this. One is that evangelical Christians under the banner of the Moral Majority made a determined push to influence political leaders since the 1970s and to inject religion into political debates. This broad agenda animates contemporary right-wing media including talk radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh and TV channels such as Fox News.

 

The religious propensities of immigrants mean that they are receptive to the conservative religious message and can be induced to vote across class lines. In doing so they support an agenda that favors the wealthy and makes them even poorer.

 

Given this threat from the religious right, Democrats feel pressure to emphasize their own religious credentials, or risk losing a chunk of the poorer immigrant population who make up their natural constituency. 

 

So religion is embroiled in American political life and that magnifies the apparent significance of religion in people's everyday lives. According to wits, U.S. conservatives went to war in Afghanistan to separate religion from politics abroad while striving to unite religion and politics at home.

 

American politicians talk a lot about religion. Yet, they have no more in common with theocrats like the Taliban than ordinary Americans have with the religious fervor of ordinary Afghanis.

 

Many poor people in America undermine their economic interests by voting for Republican politicians who are interested in further concentrating wealth in the hands of the affluent. They do so, in part, because the Republicans appeal to their religious propensity.

 

That religious propensity is strengthened by increasing insecurity in the lives of the poor because difficult living conditions are associated with increased religiosity.¹ So the worse their living conditions become, the more likely they are to follow a self-defeating voting pattern. That seems like another great reason for really separating church and state.

 

Sources 

1. Barber, N. (2012). Why atheism will replace religion: The triumph of earthly pleasures over pie in the sky. E-book, available here.

2. Gallup (2010). Religiosity highest in world's poorest nations.

3. Zuckerman, P. (2008). Society without God: What the least religious nations can tell us about contentment. New York: New York University Press.

 

4. Wilkinson, R., & Pickett, K. (2010). The spirit level: Why greater equality makes societies stronger. New York: Bloomsbury Press. 

 

5. Huffington, A. (2010). Third World America. New York: Crown.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-barber/why-religion-rules-americ_b_1690433.html

[Nunavut Patrick]

How are plutocracies usually ended?

Bunch of astronomers get together and strip it of planethood.

[Jairzinho]

Works for me.

[VladimirIlyich]

Why Religion Rules American Politics

Religion is important for American politics because religion is important for Americans.¹Yet, there are factors in American political life that amplify the role of religion in a way that is not seen in other developed countries.

For a developed country, the U.S. is extraordinarily high on religion. Thus 65 percent of Americans say that religion is important in their daily lives compared to just 17 percent of Swedes, 19 percent of Danes, and 24 percent of Japanese.²

Why America is more religious than Europe

There are several likely reasons why Americans say that they are so much more religious than Europeans. One may be that they exaggerate their own religiosity in the same way that they claim about twice the attendance rates relative to people actually showing up in church.¹

There is also a large immigrant population, many of whom hail from countries that are poor and comparatively religious. Immigrant groups that happen to be linguistically isolated may remain quite religious even if the broader society becomes increasingly secular.¹

Life is more difficult in the U.S. than in Europe by several measures even though Europe is currently in an economic decline.³

Problems here range from health problems and lower life expectancy, to higher crime rates, and relative lack of involvement in the community.⁴All of these problems are bound up with inequality - with a chasm between the living conditions of rich and poor.⁴ This gap has widened in recent decades and reveals holes in social safety nets relative to Europe.⁵

So Americans feel far less secure economically, and in relation to their health and well-being than the overall wealth of the country in terms of GDP per capita would predict.⁴This existential insecurity provides a fertile ground for religion.¹

Historians are fond of attributing American religiosity to historical factors such as the Puritan founders. Yet history counts for little in these matters given that virtually every country has a devout past -- specifically the currently secular countries of Europe.

Why religion is emphasized in American politics

Religion influences American politics to a degree not seen in other developed countries. Despite the constitutional firewall between church and state, national politicians hardly ever give a major speech without invoking religion.

The president is forever asking God to bless America, sending his prayers to victims of disasters, hosting religious leaders, and extolling religious values. Such advocacy of religion is unheard of in Europe but that may be because the majority is no longer religious and because voting members of the native population (as distinct from immigrants) are not very devout.

In America, religion is much more a part of public life whatever the constitution says. There are various reasons for this. One is that evangelical Christians under the banner of the Moral Majority made a determined push to influence political leaders since the 1970s and to inject religion into political debates. This broad agenda animates contemporary right-wing media including talk radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh and TV channels such as Fox News.

The religious propensities of immigrants mean that they are receptive to the conservative religious message and can be induced to vote across class lines. In doing so they support an agenda that favors the wealthy and makes them even poorer.

Given this threat from the religious right, Democrats feel pressure to emphasize their own religious credentials, or risk losing a chunk of the poorer immigrant population who make up their natural constituency.

 

So religion is embroiled in American political life and that magnifies the apparent significance of religion in people's everyday lives. According to wits, U.S. conservatives went to war in Afghanistan to separate religion from politics abroad while striving to unite religion and politics at home.

American politicians talk a lot about religion. Yet, they have no more in common with theocrats like the Taliban than ordinary Americans have with the religious fervor of ordinary Afghanis.

Many poor people in America undermine their economic interests by voting for Republican politicians who are interested in further concentrating wealth in the hands of the affluent. They do so, in part, because the Republicans appeal to their religious propensity.

That religious propensity is strengthened by increasing insecurity in the lives of the poor because difficult living conditions are associated with increased religiosity.¹ So the worse their living conditions become, the more likely they are to follow a self-defeating voting pattern. That seems like another great reason for really separating church and state.

Sources

1. Barber, N. (2012). Why atheism will replace religion: The triumph of earthly pleasures over pie in the sky. E-book, available here.

2. Gallup (2010). Religiosity highest in world's poorest nations.

3. Zuckerman, P. (2008). Society without God: What the least religious nations can tell us about contentment. New York: New York University Press.

 

4. Wilkinson, R., & Pickett, K. (2010). The spirit level: Why greater equality makes societies stronger. New York: Bloomsbury Press.

 

5. Huffington, A. (2010). Third World America. New York: Crown.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-barber/why-religion-rules-americ_b_1690433.html

Excellent post Skids.

[Gnasher]

False dichotomies ftw.Amazingly enough I have been able to stand for election on numerous occasions, without having to spend 10 quid, let alone 10 billion.Would love to know who these political parties with billions to spend are, incidentally.Of course, I did have to get off my arse for an hour and collect some signatures from the neighbours.The point is: do SOMETHING. Don't just moan about things. Contrary to popular misbelief, it isn't particularly expensive to have a say in things, all it costs is time and effort.

Oh i see, i obviously misunderstood. I thought you meant form a new political party to rival the big boys and change the world. What you really meant was get a few signatures,hire a Micky mouse type costume and stand around a council hall on election night for a bit of a laugh.