Danny "The Rock" Agger

[Nicky B]

What on earth was Carragher doing on Wednesday letting the ball go through his legs and letting the Polish chap (cant remember his name) have a chance? Almost a carbon copy of Lyons winner at Anfield, Carra letting a player come in on the blind side. He could have stopped Lyon scoring if he had been more aware, then he does it again.

[zigackly]

I was just pointing to the fact that I am Slovak so there is a tendency to be less objective.

 

Sure but I think everyone can see you have been objective since you started to post here, I don't think there's any need to make an issue of it.

[Paul]

The thing that amazes me about so many people's comments about Carra is that here is a proven defensive rock who has saved us on countless occasions as well as organised and led the team on countless more, and yet they will write him off on the basis of a few dodgy performances. And that's what it was because it's only at the start of the season when he's been shit. Since then he's been a cog in a hugely dysfunctional machine.

 

It's like some people have no concept of the fact that defending is, more than any other aspect of football, a collective function. Defences more than any other area of the team operate as a unit and mistakes in one area of that unit require adjustments from the rest of it. Consequently, if you have full backs regularly being caught out of position or beaten, then the centre backs have to react. Now if that happens once or twice every few games, as has been the case for the last few years, then recovery tackles and (now departed) central midfielders dropping in are par for the course.

 

However, if it happens frequently in every game then the entire defence is fucked. Carra doesn't know where to expect the next fuck up and consequently his own positioning is affected (as it was when covering for Igor Biscan in that oft cited "nightmare" against Henry).

 

In the first few matches Carra made some uncharacteristic unforced individual errors. However, I think his own game has been fine since then; what's been pretty fucking far from fine is the tactics that require full backs to go recklessly up field without much thought about getting back effectively if we lose the ball and the form of players who are clearly still making unforced individual errors.

 

In this shittest of seasons, Jamie Carragher is the least of our worries.

[Dracco]

Sure but I think everyone can see you have been objective since you started to post here, I don't think there's any need to make an issue of it.

 

Thanks.

 

I was accused of beeing biased few times on RAWK and few twats there were stupid cunts. That was one of the reason I was looking for another forum and I found TLW as my cup of coffee.....

 

I like it here and post on other forums very rarely since i registered here. Thanks lads.

[Spy Bee]

In this shittest of seasons, Jamie Carragher is the least of our worries.

When Mr Dependable is no longer dependable that to me is a big problem. With your every effort to be objective Paul, your love for Carragher would blind you from seeing his decline.

[kop]

The thing that amazes me about so many people's comments about Carra is that here is a proven defensive rock who has saved us on countless occasions as well as organised and led the team on countless more, and yet they will write him off on the basis of a few dodgy performances. And that's what it was because it's only at the start of the season when he's been shit. Since then he's been a cog in a hugely dysfunctional machine.

 

It's like some people have no concept of the fact that defending is, more than any other aspect of football, a collective function. Defences more than any other area of the team operate as a unit and mistakes in one area of that unit require adjustments from the rest of it. Consequently, if you have full backs regularly being caught out of position or beaten, then the centre backs have to react. Now if that happens once or twice every few games, as has been the case for the last few years, then recovery tackles and (now departed) central midfielders dropping in are par for the course.

 

However, if it happens frequently in every game then the entire defence is fucked. Carra doesn't know where to expect the next fuck up and consequently his own positioning is affected (as it was when covering for Igor Biscan in that oft cited "nightmare" against Henry).

 

In the first few matches Carra made some uncharacteristic unforced individual errors. However, I think his own game has been fine since then; what's been pretty fucking far from fine is the tactics that require full backs to go recklessly up field without much thought about getting back effectively if we lose the ball and the form of players who are clearly still making unforced individual errors.

 

In this shittest of seasons, Jamie Carragher is the least of our worries.

 

I started commenting on Carra on this thread, and although I know you are refering to "so many people's comments" and "they are writing him off" in general terms, I would still like to state that I for one haven't written him off at all.

 

Carra is however not immune to criticism even if his name is Carra. Saying he had a few bad games at the start of the season is correct, but saying he hasn't been bad since is wrong in my opinion, using the Reading match as evidence. He was really, really poor in that game, making several misstakes when they created their big chances before the penalty. He was constantly out of position, and he lost his man several times.

 

I know he will bounch back though, he has that mentality and professionalims with him, and I also think he has the work ethics to give him a Hyypia-like seasoning to his game. He is a man who can handle criticism aswell so I have no problems giving it to him. It's kind of deliberating aswell to let him have it instead of the usuall suspects, especially concidering the threshold for criticism towards him is much higher than most players.

[Paul]

I started commenting on Carra on this thread, and although I know you are refering to "so many people's comments" and "they are writing him off" in general terms, I would still like to state that I for one haven't written him off at all.

 

Carra is however not immune to criticism even if his name is Carra. Saying he had a few bad games at the start of the season is correct, but saying he hasn't been bad since is wrong in my opinion, using the Reading match as evidence. He was really, really poor in that game, making several misstakes when they created their big chances before the penalty. He was constantly out of position, and he lost his man several times.

 

I know he will bounch back though, he has that mentality and professionalims with him, and I also think he has the work ethics to give him a Hyypia-like seasoning to his game. He is a man who can handle criticism aswell so I have no problems giving it to him. It's kind of deliberating aswell to let him have it instead of the usuall suspects, especially concidering the threshold for criticism towards him is much higher than most players.

 

But Knut you're ignoring my whole point: at the start of the season he was making unforced individual errors; now he's having to fire fight throughout every 90 minutes he plays and it is inevitable that he's being exposed in such circumstances. There isn't a defender in the world that wouldn't be in such circumstances.

[Paul]

When Mr Dependable is no longer dependable that to me is a big problem. With your every effort to be objective Paul, your love for Carragher would blind you from seeing his decline.

 

I don't try or profess to be objective: I'm a passionate and opinionated Red and preface/qualify most things I say with the words "In my view/opinion". I do try to be measured though, which is a different thing.

 

In the context of this specific discussion you'll see if you have another look at what I wrote that I am not blind to Carra's problems this season. However, the very poor form of the first ten or so matches aside, I think it was inevitable. There isn't a defender anywhere in the world that could cope with having to cover huge errors right across the back four without getting egg on his own face like Carra is doing right now for us. I mean, have you see how badly Insua is playing? It's a horror show and is badly affecting the rest of the defensive unit (if you can call the ever-changing line up that is our rear-guard a unit). The variety of inexperienced/shit/injured/confidence-sapped right backs we've seen hasn't helped either.

 

As for labelling what we're seeing as a decline, I made the same mistake I believe you and others are making in doing so with regards to Sami about three years ago. I thought he was finished at the highest level due to his legs appearing to have gone. I was wrong. It was the system that was exposing him just as it's the system (and the chronic form of others) that's exposing Carra right now.

 

Carra's form at the start of the season is definitely the worst I've ever seen from him, but what we've seen since is not about individual problems in my view.

[cmuller]

We need a player with 'presence' and the ability to lead and organise with Carragher looking like he's concentrating on his own game more and more. Personally I'd give the role to Agger, taking on more responsibility would improve him as a player as well as lessening any major pressure Carra is putting on himself.

 

Also this talk of Johnson unsettling things I don't really agree with, Riise was worse at defending but was part of a tight defensive unit for years.

[Spy Bee]

Carra's form at the start of the season is definitely the worst I've ever seen from him, but what we've seen since is not about individual problems in my view.

Well I don't think his form has improved since early season. He's had good games, but generally he's been poor. It's easy to blame it on everyone else, and in fairness that does need to be taken into consideration, but I think even with all that considered Carragher's performances this season have left a lot to be desired.

[Red-Ed]

Quite simply we are missing Hyppia and haven't replaced him adequately.

 

We don't have a physically dominant centre back anymore and Carra, Agger and Skrtel play better when they have someone to build their performances around.

At the moment none of them are playing well enough so the doubt, lack of confidence seeps from one to the other and they lose faith in themselves and their team mates. Consequently they expect the worse and get it!

[kop]

But Knut you're ignoring my whole point: at the start of the season he was making unforced individual errors; now he's having to fire fight throughout every 90 minutes he plays and it is inevitable that he's being exposed in such circumstances. There isn't a defender in the world that wouldn't be in such circumstances.

 

Maybe I ignored that point, although I don't think the working condidtions have changed enough for it to be the deciding factor for the reason behind his bad games (when he has them).

 

It's still a good point you're making though, and I think we are in general ignoring factors like that when we judge player performance. Also, it takes a Carra for us to look for factors like that, simply because we're looking for excuses for why he has a bad game, and those excuses can some times be justified (like the point you just made) and sometimes they are just excuses. When we judge Agger, or Insua, or Lucas, or Kuyt, then the collective factor is mostly ignored. In that perspective players like Carra gets the easy way out more often than not. He will never be the scapegoat (thankfully), even though sometimes he deserves it more than the player who actually gets the stick of the day.

 

I'm turning the discussion now I know, but it's not because I'm missing your point. I understand what you're saying, and I think that point should be made for all of our players when the collective doesn't work.

[TommyW]

good post kop

[Paul]

Maybe I ignored that point, although I don't think the working condidtions have changed enough for it to be the deciding factor for the reason behind his bad games (when he has them).

 

It's still a good point you're making though, and I think we are in general ignoring factors like that when we judge player performance. Also, it takes a Carra for us to look for factors like that, simply because we're looking for excuses for why he has a bad game, and those excuses can some times be justified (like the point you just made) and sometimes they are just excuses. When we judge Agger, or Insua, or Lucas, or Kuyt, then the collective factor is mostly ignored. In that perspective players like Carra gets the easy way out more often than not. He will never be the scapegoat (thankfully), even though sometimes he deserves it more than the player who actually gets the stick of the day.

 

I'm turning the discussion now I know, but it's not because I'm missing your point. I understand what you're saying, and I think that point should be made for all of our players when the collective doesn't work.

 

Well I'd broadly agree with that mate, but with one proviso: the context of the player's form over his entire Liverpool career is also a significant factor that cannot be ignored. If a player has been consistently superb, then the evidence would suggest that there are other factors at play rather just individual form affecting his performances. However, if a player has been largely uninspiring then that points to the individual's ability as a footballer rather than other extenuating circumstances lying at the root of the problem.

 

Therefore, Carra has a decade of greatness under his belt and Insua has maybe half his games for Liverpool that include individual defensive errors. Now, there are extenuating circumstances for Insua (his inexperience), but Carra's mistakes have been far less glaring, far less frequent and are out of character in the context of his career.

[Captain]

no one on the team is like they used to be.

 

I'd say Pepe has been.

 

As for Agger, I rate him. Unfortunately he isn't fit enough. I'd sell him in the summer if we can get a decent fee for him.

[Paul]

I'd say Pepe has been.

 

As for Agger, I rate him. Unfortunately he isn't fit enough. I'd sell him in the summer if we can get a decent fee for him.

 

Me too. I think this is going to be the pattern of his entire career. I remember him having an injury when he arrived and DT telling us on here that he'd had various injuries in Denmark too. There's no doubt that he's a talented player, but I don't think we'll ever get more than what we've seen throughout his time here from him. Maybe he'd be better off in Italy where the physical demands and number of games are less relentless.

 

I feel sorry for him, to be honest. It must be fucking soul destroying having to constantly play in pain/doubt, not to mention miss whole swathes of every season out injured.

[kalasoma]

Is it possible for us to buy a player for one who doesn't have a history of recovering from a repetitive injury? Or, is there something wrong with the doctors/physios/trainers at Melwood?

[rebel23]

Daniel was brilliant today

[ODZ]

Fantastic performance from him today. Calm and assured. Our best CB, my humble opinion.

[The Special One]

I bet he's good in the sack too. Rawr.

[Monster Masch]

Good decision to put him in today. We'll need him against Arsenal, that is for sure.

[Woo]

He's much, much better than Skrtel and Krygiakos, but still needs to prove himself in the long term.

[tenner]

I'm with kop. Nobody wants to believe it, but Cara has been poor all season (bar the odd game). I don't know if his legs have gone, or if he's just playing shite, but he isn't the Carragher we've known for the last few years.

 

I think Carra has been playing very well of late. Was class again today against Everton.

[JohnnyH]

Well it'll be Agger and Skrtel against the Arse with Carra right back, so here's hoping for a repeat performance.

[Brigant Moloch]

aye, as much as I like Kyrgiakos and despite his red card, we'll need quicker, more ball-playing CB against Ze Wunder Arse Jugend

Edited February 6, 2010 by Brigant Moloch