What a difference a year makes...

[Nunavut Patrick]

Huddersfield aren't challenging cos we took Shanks from them:yes:

[johnb]

So Top 4 is the benchmark?

 

Bit of a comedown from "We will win the League and Champions League."

 

Oh, and Shankly came in December 1959 and had the Division One title by Spring 1964. Having taken us over when we were in the Second Division and winning that in 1961-62.

 

1961-62 - Division 2 champions

1963-64 - Division 1 champions

1964-65 - F.A. Cup Winners

1965-66 - Division 1 champions, European Cup-Winners-Cup finalists

1968-69 - Division 1 runners-up

1970-71 - F.A. Cup finalists

1972-73 - Division 1 champions, UEFA Cup winners

1973-74 - F.A. Cup winners, Division 1 runners-up

THERE IS NO ARGUMENT ANY MORE.

[Hermes]

And I find it bizarre that you can go from "Let's see how we do from February onwards, if there is no significant improvement then Houllier should be sacked." at the top of this thread to "We should sack him for that?" a few posts later.

Okay let me explain my stance on Houllier. I can't go into too much detail as that will be in the next issue of TLW. If I divulge it now then Dave could lose 100,000 in circulation figures.:whistle:

 

I think any manager deserves a season of failure without being sacked. Houllier has had one, this one hasn't finished remember. If he'd been appointed in November 2002 then he'd have been sacked by now, and rightly so. But he has won 4 trophies (not 6 as some people, GH included ludicrously claim) and progressed in the first 3 seasons. He deserves until the end of this season to prove he can turn it around (CL qualification) and produce the attacking football we saw when the whole squad was available. If he fails in either of these he should go. We should sack him even if he achieves that? No? Then you agree with me.

 

 

John, I could have quoted Shankly's record from my head. Looking it up and then posting it insults me.

[johnb]

Okay let me explain my stance on Houllier. I can't go into too much detail as that will be in the next issue of TLW. If I divulge it now then Dave could lose 100,000 in circulation figures.:whistle:

 

I think any manager deserves a season of failure without being sacked. Houllier has had one, this one hasn't finished remember. If he'd been appointed in November 2002 then he'd have been sacked by now, and rightly so. But he has won 4 trophies (not 6 as some people, GH included ludicrously claim) and progressed in the first 3 seasons. He deserves until the end of this season to prove he can turn it around (CL qualification) and produce the attacking football we saw when the whole squad was available. If he fails in either of these he should go. We should sack him even if he achieves that? No? Then you agree with me.

Disagree completely. He SHOULD have been sacked last summer, if not before.

 

Why?

 

Because it was obvious - to me - he would progress us no further.

 

Which has been shown to be true.

 

He finishes Fourth and so what? Not good enough.

 

But he has evidently succeeded in convincing some that it is acceptable.

 

May 2001 (Treble) or May 2002 (80 points), would you have accepted Fourth in May 2004?

 

I doubt it.

 

If I had a sympathetic bone in my body I might feel sorry for people who think he can deliver. Good thing I don't.

[Guest carl cross]

Last summer an awful lots of fans wanted GH out as we failed to get the CL place on the last day ( another gutless woeful display )

 

But the signing of Kewell gave us hope back only for that hope to be ripped away by more woeful displays similar to last year.

 

The year before we all saw Diuof in the world cup and saw an interesting player and were glad he was joining us. We were sold the lie or this serial killer crap only to see a player who cannot score cannot cross. He is no more a player than the fanct dan at the scum. Both a waste of over 10mill.

 

When we fail to get the CL place this time Cisse will not be enough. we all know what Kewell can do, not many know what cisse can do in the prem.

 

He should have gone last year but moores does not have it in him to sack the managers he appoints. Come this May I dont think he will have any choice.

 

4th place a miracle

5th place possible

6th place quite likely

[Rushian]

There was an extremely strong case for Houllier being given another season last summer as Hermes alluded to. To deny that is farcical.

[johnb]

Does it look farcical now Steve?

[Duncan Clench]

Oh dear! Another woeful performance from the lads and GH is back in trouble with the Liverpool faithful! Still not thought of anyone to replace him yet though! We are in trouble. We're a team that looks like we don't have a clue what playing in the prem is all about, why can't we struggle in a match and still win three points? That's what it's all about surely. When things aren't going well then we're there for the taking because there isn't a single player (and I include Gerrard, Owen and all the other favourites) that can inspire the rest of the team to get those points. What does GH say to them at half time when we're looking like shit again? Not a lot from what I can see because they come out for the second half looking beaten already. This is what it comes down to, the manager cannot inspire the team to victory and therefore he should resign out of respect for the club and it's traditions.

 

"Third most successful manager in the premier league"? Have to disagree I'm afraid. Trophy-wise, yes. But to be honest, if I was manager of the club for the last few years I'm pretty sure we'd have finished third at least! Look at who we're up against for the "Holy "Grail" of 4th spot. Charlton (Alan Curbishley, a better manager that GH I think, but without the gift of a free Owen/Gerrard/Carra etc). Who's most succesful, the manager with an almost ready-made team with oodles (great word) of money to spend who wins a few cups and finishes in the top 5 regularly? Or is it the man who brings a team up from the lower divs and makes them a Premier league outfit year after year with no money? Who get's the best out of their players, Houllier or Curbishley? Or Coleman? Bruce even?

 

Oh, and one more thing. Henchoz at RB and Biscan at CB? Are you purposely trying to wind me up Mr. Houllier? Spurs have now won 4-in-a-row without a manager.........Hmmmmmmmmm!

[Anubis]

I hope your right about the top 4 position Hermes, but I don't think that will disguise the malaise at the heart of the club.

 

We have argumnets in the board room, the manager seems incapable of motivating his players, and his tactical decisions over the past few seasons have left much to be desired. The players seem incapable of motivating themselves, and seem to care little about where they finish, and the ticket office is a fucking farce. The malaise has spread to the fans, and the atmosphere has been very poor for some time.

 

I just can't see us getting more than a UEFA Cup spot.

[thechap]

Hermes - I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think you are showing naive blind faith in GH. Getting into 4th place depends on GH. Not the players because they in turn depend on GH making the right decisions and motivating them. Gh has shown that he is flawed tactically, so stubborn that he persists with poor players just because he has bought them and refuses to acknowledge the quality of academy players. In short he has lost the plot, and he lost it last season. He used up all reasonable excuses a long time ago and since then has turned to bullshit instead. Yes he has been without some key players but the players he had left should have been achieving far more than they have. I put that lack of achievement fairly and squarely on the manager's shoulders.

 

I hope that I'm wrong, but I do not for one moment believe that GH will deliver 4th place this season. With that belief, I think he should go and at least give his replacement some time to repair the severe damage already done to this (and last) season.

 

The argument about who should replace him is a different one but I am sure that there are NUMEROUS quality managers out there who would give their right arms to manage Liverpool. I would welcome back King Kenny. Saying he has been out of the game too long is absolute crap - unless he has been asleep for several years and not watched any football, which I doubt.

 

 

Gerard - please fuck off now before you drag us any further through the mud. You are embarassing me.

[Rushian]

"Does it look farcical now Steve?"

 

John - you're becoming an Apologista for some of the muppets that follow this club and do knee-jerk and ring 606 at will.

 

There were a host of reasons for giving him another season as intelligent, articulate Reds who travel the length and breadth of this country and Europe following the team argued. And have done at length. You may not have agreed then but it wasn't an open and shut case to get rid of Houllier in the summer.

 

That is very different from being happy with the current situation and wanting GH to stay in charge now.

[johnb]

Not sure what you mean by saying I'm an Aplogista for 606ers. I know of two fanzine editors who argued the same point before the end of last season. ;)

 

Maybe it wasn't an open and shut case but...

 

- worst home run in 50 years

- elimination in first group stage of Champions League

- knocked out of FA Cup 4th Round to Palace at home

- none of the summer signings coming good

- 5th place in League and no Champions League football...

- drop from 80 points to 64 points

- UEFA Cup elimination to Celtic

- worst football any of us have seen for years

- excuse after excuse - World Cup, young team, etc...

 

was enough to make up my mind. I'm still waiting to be proven wrong.

 

All I did was look at it with open eyes and couldn't possibly see things getting any better.

 

Plenty of articulate far-and-wide-travelling Reds are not far removed from my opinion either...

[johnb]

And No I'm Not Forgetting The League Cup!!! ;)

[dave u]

Know what Rushian is saying though John. I said I wanted him to go, but could understand and respect the reasons of those who felt he deserved another year, as could you. I think the abuse you've taken from the pro GH loony party has taken a bit of a toll ;)

 

Can't understand anyone now who still thinks he's the man to bring the title back to L4 though. There is NOTHING to back that up, other than blind faith and silly comments about how it took Ferguson seven years etc.

[Rushian]

It's not about being proven wrong though is it john? It's about what's best for the club. In the summer it certainly wasn't clear that getting rid of Houllier was best for the club - you had very strong arguments both ways. Your arguments then may apply perfectly now as valid reasons for shifting him on though ;)

 

And a plea to TLW (and goatboy if he's reading)!!! Please retire the terms Apologista and Antagonista - after reading the latest issue on the weekend I almost sent it to Private Eye for inclusion in Pseud's corner ;)

[goatboy59]

Who? Me? What have I done? Don't know what you mean - you've got me confused with someone else, mate! :no :$ ;)

[johnb]

Steve,

Apologies for antagonising you. ;)

 

I do know what you're saying. I kinda-half-sorta-grudgingly-only-just-barely admitted last summer that another season could have been justified.

 

Don't feed The Goat! ;)

[johnb]

It's not about being proven wrong though is it john? It's about what's best for the club. In the summer it certainly wasn't clear that getting rid of Houllier was best for the club - you had very strong arguments both ways. Your arguments then may apply perfectly now as valid reasons for shifting him on though ;)

Steve,

Yer right and I said last season that I hoped everything I said was rubbish. I just think getting rid is best for the Club - as to when, well, there's an argument to stick with it until the summer, but that's losing gravitas as each day passes.

[DT]

Gotsta love someone using the word 'gravitas' in a serious context.

[Guest Bellflower]

No, of course he wouldn't. The fact is their is the Championship followed by however many positions qualify for CL. As Shankly would say "First is first and 2nd to 4th is in the money". As long as we finish in CL positions that is all that can be expected. He's failed once, if he fails again then he should go. At least give him the chance to rectify the failure.

Trouble is , he doesn't seem to think he HAS failed.

As for 80 points, when was the last time we won 16 out of 17 ?

[Guest howartj]

"We should be challenging for the top every season". Based on what? We used to 13 years ago. Huddersfield won the Championship 3 seasons in succession in the 1920's. Why aren't they challenging now. Man Utd and Chelsea have more resources than us, Arsenal are equal to us in that respect. We should be in the top 4, and we will be on may 15th.

 

Hermes i think your spot on in what you say i.e. based on 'we used to 13 years ago' but i don't think people are expecting the title, just better football and people played in the position they were signed for, the youngsters given a chance (like John Welsh instead of Cheryou for example) less crappy home defeats (is it 6 already this year ) and most of all stop playing people that aren't good enough for LFC..