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Graeme Souness the Player

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14 minutes ago, The Guest said:

Football is constantly evolving and you have to take that into account.  If you put that shocking in 2010 team with Konchesky and Jovanovic etc in a time machine and travelled them back to 1978 they would run rings around Dalglish and Souness etc.  They would just outrun them for a start but on top of that they would just keep the ball better and be far more tactically aware.  The training and education of players is just astronomically better.  If you watch old games even from 20s years ago there’s just so much launching the ball under no pressure.  I watched the famous Liverpool Leeds charity shield game the other week and the standard was comically bad looking back now.  Some people just outright refuse to see it though.

 

When comparing Souness to Gerrard it’s unfair on Souness because he was born decades earlier.  If he’d have been born the same year as  Gerrard I’ve no doubt he’d have been a better player than he was because he would have worked under the same training methods, played on better pitches etc but there’s nothing to say he would have been the player Gerrard was for me.  When there’s people actually saying he was a better player dominating midfields and stuff i honestly find it hilarious.  He just did not have the variety and set of skills Gerrard had.  When you bring up tactical awareness etc you need to get a grip.  Go back and watch some old games.  They’re absolutely wide open constantly.  It’s relative obviously but you’re living in a fantasy land.  I’m giving Souness a massive benefit of the doubt.  I’m not just whitewashing what he was at his time he is nowhere near Gerrard.

Well done for trying to hold your own. The beauty of youth, but unfortunately your opinion is actually without merit as you haven't seen Souness play and comments on basis of youtube clips. You have no idea about how good he was. It's a bit like Evertonians talking about how it is to play in the Champions League. 

 

Not trying to put Gerrard down I absolutely loved how he carried us, but seen them both and it's a no contest. Souey by a mile. End of discussion.

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2 minutes ago, Johnlj said:

Well done for trying to hold your own. The beauty of youth, but unfortunately your opinion is actually without merit as you haven't seen Souness play and comments on basis of youtube clips. You have no idea about how good he was. It's a bit like Evertonians talking about how it is to play in the Champions League. 

 

Not trying to put Gerrard down I absolutely loved how he carried us, but seen them both and it's a no contest. Souey by a mile. End of discussion.

When I say I didn’t see Souness play I mean I wasn’t there in the ground watching him week in week out.  I’ve watched countless videos and YouTube matches not just clips of him killing people.

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2 minutes ago, The Guest said:

I’m not judging Souness on that game.  I’ve watched countless Liverpool games and highlights of the teams before I was born.  I mentioned Leeds as a recent example of game I watched and the general standard.

That game was a grudge game, they fucking hated one another. The Argentine manager in 1978 said we were the best team on the planet, I understand the advances made but the 2010 side has Joe’ I need a blow ‘ Cole, Jovanavic, Poulsen, Dirk and Maxi, they weren’t running rings around anyone then, let alone 78. Off for a pint in the garden fella, have a good night.

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1 minute ago, VERBAL DIARRHEA said:

That game was a grudge game, they fucking hated one another. The Argentine manager in 1978 said we were the best team on the planet, I understand the advances made but the 2010 side has Joe’ I need a blow ‘ Cole, Jovanavic, Poulsen, Dirk and Maxi, they weren’t running rings around anyone then, let alone 78. Off for a pint in the garden fella, have a good night.

I understand it’s hard for people to accept but it’s the reality of it.  Joe Cole will have been fitter than any player of that era even though he was woefully past it at that point.

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Guesty, baby - why?

 

Gerrard has a couple of things well on his side in addition to tremendous quality. 

Longevity and being local chief amongst them. Rafa did everyone a favor by finding the best use of his talents in what are certainly the best teams Stevie played in while here.

 

But Souness - mate, untouchable in the center of the park, in every way - 7 years, 5 league titles. 3 European Cups. He was the alpha male in one of the greatest runs in football history. The idea that the elite athletes throughout history would not be elite today is ridiculous. In fact, their unique talents would probably be more acute.

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51 minutes ago, The Guest said:

Football is constantly evolving and you have to take that into account.  If you put that shocking in 2010 team with Konchesky and Jovanovic etc in a time machine and travelled them back to 1978 they would run rings around Dalglish and Souness etc.  They would just outrun them for a start but on top of that they would just keep the ball better and be far more tactically aware.  The training and education of players is just astronomically better.  If you watch old games even from 20s years ago there’s just so much launching the ball under no pressure.  I watched the famous Liverpool Leeds charity shield game the other week and the standard was comically bad looking back now.  Some people just outright refuse to see it though.

 

When comparing Souness to Gerrard it’s unfair on Souness because he was born decades earlier.  If he’d have been born the same year as  Gerrard I’ve no doubt he’d have been a better player than he was because he would have worked under the same training methods, played on better pitches etc but there’s nothing to say he would have been the player Gerrard was for me.  When there’s people actually saying he was a better player dominating midfields and stuff i honestly find it hilarious.  He just did not have the variety and set of skills Gerrard had.  When you bring up tactical awareness etc you need to get a grip.  Go back and watch some old games.  They’re absolutely wide open constantly.  It’s relative obviously but you’re living in a fantasy land.  I’m giving Souness a massive benefit of the doubt.  I’m not just whitewashing what he was at his time he is nowhere near Gerrard.

Why are you doubling down on being so wrong by mentioning Jovanovic compared to great Liverpool sides of the past. The 2010 side would probably lose to the youth team in 78 and even our current youth squad. You are now spouting nonsense.

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35 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Guesty, baby - why?

 

Gerrard has a couple of things well on his side in addition to tremendous quality. 

Longevity and being local chief amongst them. Rafa did everyone a favor by finding the best use of his talents in what are certainly the best teams Stevie played in while here.

 

But Souness - mate, untouchable in the center of the park, in every way - 7 years, 5 league titles. 3 European Cups. He was the alpha male in one of the greatest runs in football history. The idea that the elite athletes throughout history would not be elite today is ridiculous. In fact, their unique talents would probably be more acute.

Rafa killed any chance of us winning trophies by stifling Gerrard.  By pushing him further forward it reduced the options in front of him to create and hampered his overall impact on games.  He scored plenty of goals because he would do a brilliant job in any part of the team.  In reality lots of games in that period we fell behind because of negative shithouse tactics playing one up front which would then be rescued by Gerrard dropping back and another forward being brought on.  It was some laughable record set that season of comebacks that everyone conveniently forgets.  It also meant we relied heavily on one forward as no good forward is going to sign and sit on the bench all season barring injury.

 

I didn’t say elite athletes wouldn’t be elite today. Under the same training techniques and past knowledge etc they would likely be the level of players today.  I was saying the obvious that if you plucked them of it of time they wouldn’t be because they weren’t as fit.  They were all on the ale etc not being monitored to within an inch of their life.

 

I’m also not interested in people reeling off trophy counts.  It means very little in this type of conversation.

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I think part of the problem is that there is never any discussion on what made players like Dalglish and to a lesser extent Souness stand out. Someone mentioned before how Dalglish might be the least appreciated now, but how would we know how to compare him? He wasn't fast, wasn't amazing in the air, wasn't a particularly prolific goalscorer over his career. What did he do that was so good? Which current players was he most like?

 

Souness seems like a different case because his strengths are easier to see - he was fucking hard and by today's standards practically a psychopath.

 

I'm nor disagreeing with anyone about how good these players were, not at all. I'd be pretty stupid to do that given they were before my time and I've never really seen full matches of them playing. Just after a bit more detail and discussion about what made them so much better than other players of their time.

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7 minutes ago, The Guest said:

I was saying the obvious that if you plucked them of it of time they wouldn’t be because they weren’t as fit.  

The first part is obviously ridiculous - you are talking about sides that punched well above their weight.

 

On the quoted part, you could have them wearing their old heavy studs and playing with a waterlogged ball too if that makes you feel better.

 

@joe_fishfishThat is the nail on the head -- those players all had that something special in addition to being by far the most talented of their time.

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I actually agree that if you look back at old games, and I've watched pretty much everything that's been on BBC/itv/sky/bt recently, the game is quite different. Tactically, the pitches are terrible, the boots were crap, balls heavy, players are less fit, games were technically not the level of today's top teams.  

But it's not a fair comparison. The fair comparison would be to take players of yesteryear and give them modern training, fitness levels, pitches, nutrition and professionalism, and see how they'd get on

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On the subject of modern training and fitness levels I genuinely reckon you could take John Barnes in his prime, give him absolutely nothing from the modern era, make him play in his crappy old boots and everything, and he'd still be fucking amazing.

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4 hours ago, YorkshireRed said:

Kenny Dalglish is the greatest Liverpool player ever bar none. Souness and Gerrard are two and three. A hair’s breadth between them and I can understand arguments for both being number two. For me it’s Stevie because he could play in more positions and excel at them all. The position they both played in, Souness gets the nod there but only just. 
 

Another debate would be that if these are the undisputed top three then who is our fourth best player ever?

 

Maybe that’s for another thread...

Digger, then Rush. Although I can’t really put Souness in as haven’t seen him play, so I’d have:

 

1 - Kenny (only saw the last bits and was too young to register, but I’ve seen the clips and love the man. I would have Stevie first, but even he says King Kenny is number 1. Also, met him at a party and he befriended my dad who’s a blue. Swapped numbers the lot. Never did ring him in spite of my daily badgering. I was 7)

 

2 - Stevie. So lucky to have witnessed his full career here. People saying Souness by miles, but I’ve never seen anyone be better than him on the whole. Gerrard wouldn’t have been intimidated by Souness’ hard man stuff either, which I imagine prevented plenty he was up against playing their normal game for fear of a two footed lunge. Gerrard would have met him head on. Better at some things, but not same level as the complete package. He’s a phenomenon. Local boy, home team captain, absolutely rinsed all before him.

 

3 - Barnes. What made me abandon my blue dad’s ambition to get me to be a toffee. Fell in love with him and still get mesmerised at the way he glided, jinked, changes pace and caressed the ball. Best winger I’ve ever seen, including Giggs.

 

4 - Rush. What can you say - Rush is all you need. Saw him score so many winners as a kid and then still manage to hit 15 goals a season when bringing Robbie through. Absolute legend.

 

5 - Fowler. Again, based on elongated periods watching him. There was loads in the late 80s who were turned out when Kenny left that should be in here, but Fowler was unreal in his years before the first knee injury. 30+ goals 3 full seasons running and such a good lad with so many amazing memories and moments.

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2 hours ago, The Guest said:

Football is constantly evolving and you have to take that into account.  If you put that shocking in 2010 team with Konchesky and Jovanovic etc in a time machine and travelled them back to 1978 they would run rings around Dalglish and Souness etc.  They would just outrun them for a start but on top of that they would just keep the ball better and be far more tactically aware.  The training and education of players is just astronomically better.  If you watch old games even from 20s years ago there’s just so much launching the ball under no pressure.  I watched the famous Liverpool Leeds charity shield game the other week and the standard was comically bad looking back now.  Some people just outright refuse to see it though.

 

When comparing Souness to Gerrard it’s unfair on Souness because he was born decades earlier.  If he’d have been born the same year as  Gerrard I’ve no doubt he’d have been a better player than he was because he would have worked under the same training methods, played on better pitches etc but there’s nothing to say he would have been the player Gerrard was for me.  When there’s people actually saying he was a better player dominating midfields and stuff i honestly find it hilarious.  He just did not have the variety and set of skills Gerrard had.  When you bring up tactical awareness etc you need to get a grip.  Go back and watch some old games.  They’re absolutely wide open constantly.  It’s relative obviously but you’re living in a fantasy land.  I’m giving Souness a massive benefit of the doubt.  I’m not just whitewashing what he was at his time he is nowhere near Gerrard.


Stop. Seriously, just stop. It’s embarrassing now. 

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46 minutes ago, belarus said:

Digger, then Rush. Although I can’t really put Souness in as haven’t seen him play, so I’d have:

 

1 - Kenny (only saw the last bits and was too young to register, but I’ve seen the clips and love the man. I would have Stevie first, but even he says King Kenny is number 1. Also, met him at a party and he befriended my dad who’s a blue. Swapped numbers the lot. Never did ring him in spite of my daily badgering. I was 7)

 

2 - Stevie. So lucky to have witnessed his full career here. People saying Souness by miles, but I’ve never seen anyone be better than him on the whole. Gerrard wouldn’t have been intimidated by Souness’ hard man stuff either, which I imagine prevented plenty he was up against playing their normal game for fear of a two footed lunge. Gerrard would have met him head on. Better at some things, but not same level as the complete package. He’s a phenomenon. Local boy, home team captain, absolutely rinsed all before him.

 

3 - Barnes. What made me abandon my blue dad’s ambition to get me to be a toffee. Fell in love with him and still get mesmerised at the way he glided, jinked, changes pace and caressed the ball. Best winger I’ve ever seen, including Giggs.

 

4 - Rush. What can you say - Rush is all you need. Saw him score so many winners as a kid and then still manage to hit 15 goals a season when bringing Robbie through. Absolute legend.

 

5 - Fowler. Again, based on elongated periods watching him. There was loads in the late 80s who were turned out when Kenny left that should be in here, but Fowler was unreal in his years before the first knee injury. 30+ goals 3 full seasons running and such a good lad with so many amazing memories and moments.


I respect your right to have an opinion, but it’s hard to take it serious when you say you can’t rate Souness because you never saw him play, but then put Dalglish first because you saw him on YouTube and Stevie said he was 1st. 

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1 hour ago, The Guest said:

Rafa killed any chance of us winning trophies by stifling Gerrard.  By pushing him further forward it reduced the options in front of him to create and hampered his overall impact on games.  He scored plenty of goals because he would do a brilliant job in any part of the team.  In reality lots of games in that period we fell behind because of negative shithouse tactics playing one up front which would then be rescued by Gerrard dropping back and another forward being brought on.  It was some laughable record set that season of comebacks that everyone conveniently forgets.  It also meant we relied heavily on one forward as no good forward is going to sign and sit on the bench all season barring injury.

 

I didn’t say elite athletes wouldn’t be elite today. Under the same training techniques and past knowledge etc they would likely be the level of players today.  I was saying the obvious that if you plucked them of it of time they wouldn’t be because they weren’t as fit.  They were all on the ale etc not being monitored to within an inch of their life.

 

I’m also not interested in people reeling off trophy counts.  It means very little in this type of conversation.


Bollocks. 

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3 hours ago, The Guest said:

Football is constantly evolving and you have to take that into account.  If you put that shocking in 2010 team with Konchesky and Jovanovic etc in a time machine and travelled them back to 1978 they would run rings around Dalglish and Souness etc.  They would just outrun them for a start but on top of that they would just keep the ball better and be far more tactically aware.  The training and education of players is just astronomically better.  If you watch old games even from 20s years ago there’s just so much launching the ball under no pressure.  I watched the famous Liverpool Leeds charity shield game the other week and the standard was comically bad looking back now.  Some people just outright refuse to see it though.

 

When comparing Souness to Gerrard it’s unfair on Souness because he was born decades earlier.  If he’d have been born the same year as  Gerrard I’ve no doubt he’d have been a better player than he was because he would have worked under the same training methods, played on better pitches etc but there’s nothing to say he would have been the player Gerrard was for me.  When there’s people actually saying he was a better player dominating midfields and stuff i honestly find it hilarious.  He just did not have the variety and set of skills Gerrard had.  When you bring up tactical awareness etc you need to get a grip.  Go back and watch some old games.  They’re absolutely wide open constantly.  It’s relative obviously but you’re living in a fantasy land.  I’m giving Souness a massive benefit of the doubt.  I’m not just whitewashing what he was at his time he is nowhere near Gerrard.

I've read some crap on this site but that is possibly the worst.

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1 hour ago, JohnnyH said:


I respect your right to have an opinion, but it’s hard to take it serious when you say you can’t rate Souness because you never saw him play, but then put Dalglish first because you saw him on YouTube and Stevie said he was 1st. 

Why is that hard? I have seen Kenny at the end of his playing days, I’ve never seen souness play. It’s not hard. Are you suggesting number 1 shouldn’t be Kenny? Because that was deemed as a given previously, by everyone discussing it, so wasn’t really the point of the conversation. I had no emotional attachment to Souness. In fact if anything it was a negative feeling as a kid due to him dismantling our team and making a shit one, the story to the rag and then later his hypocrisy of criticising Suarez for his bite dragging the Liverpool name through the mud, when he broke someone’s jaw in the red of Liverpool.

 

You say I never saw Kenny play. I said I had seen him but was too young to fully register his form, but by the time he left his manger role, he was a firm favourite and hero to me. It’s hard to take you seriously when you don’t read things properly and misquote me, probably on purpose to fit your patronising response. 

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10 hours ago, belarus said:

Why is that hard? I have seen Kenny at the end of his playing days, I’ve never seen souness play. It’s not hard. Are you suggesting number 1 shouldn’t be Kenny? Because that was deemed as a given previously, by everyone discussing it, so wasn’t really the point of the conversation. I had no emotional attachment to Souness. In fact if anything it was a negative feeling as a kid due to him dismantling our team and making a shit one, the story to the rag and then later his hypocrisy of criticising Suarez for his bite dragging the Liverpool name through the mud, when he broke someone’s jaw in the red of Liverpool.

 

You say I never saw Kenny play. I said I had seen him but was too young to fully register his form, but by the time he left his manger role, he was a firm favourite and hero to me. It’s hard to take you seriously when you don’t read things properly and misquote me, probably on purpose to fit your patronising response. 


My response wasn’t patronising. It was a genuine, clear comment.  
 

You said:

13 hours ago, belarus said:

only saw the last bits and was too young to register, but I’ve seen the clips and love the man.

So I think my comment that you've never seen him play stands up. But now you’ve added that his role as manager made him a hero to you. Fair enough. In my mind this list is about the footballers, and you’ve dismissed one because you “never saw him play” but have made another No.1 based on what he did as manager given you’ve clearly stated you were “too young register” him as a player.  So I think I read your post properly and don’t think I’ve misquoted you at all. And as such I think my comment about your post was fair and not patronising at all. If only you could read things properly, eh? (Jokingly patronising) 
 

Now you’ve added the bits about Souness’s job as manager and the Sun article I feel that adds a lot more to your reasoning. Loads of people understandably can’t get past that when thinking about Souness and his place in our club greats list. I 100% get that. I’ve seen him apologise multiple times for the Sun article, and I feel those apologies were genuine and heartfelt and so I’ve moved on from it. I think he 100% regrets it. In fact I know it, and so I’ve forgiven him in my head and moved on. Many haven’t. I think it’s sad that they can’t find it in them to forgive something from 30 years ago that the person has repeatedly and profoundly apologised for, but that’s absolutely their prerogative.
 

He also cocked up as manager, but I’m absolutely fine with that. I was very happy when he took over. He came in with his ideas and they failed. He didn’t do it on purpose and he lost his job, so I’ve no issue there. That’s just football. 
 

I’m not suggesting Kenny shouldn’t be No. 1, but I’m also not suggesting he should be. The position is meritorious. If somebody thinks a player was better, then make your case. @The Guest doesn’t rate older players at all, so he most likely doesn’t have Kenny at one. At a wild guess, I reckon Gerrard is his No. 1. And that’s fine. But as it’s a footy forum we get to question it too. Just as he has downplayed and questioned our choices. But I certainly hope at some point Kenny slips from number 1 as that'll mean we’ve signed an amazing player at some point in the future. 
 


 

 

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44 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:


My response wasn’t patronising. It was a genuine, clear comment.  
 

You said:

So I think my comment that you've never seen him play stands up. But now you’ve added that his role as manager made him a hero to you. Fair enough. In my mind this list is about the footballers, and you’ve dismissed one because you “never saw him play” but have made another No.1 based on what he did as manager given you’ve clearly stated you were “too young register” him as a player.  So I think I read your post properly and don’t think I’ve misquoted you at all. And as such I think my comment about your post was fair and not patronising at all. If only you could read things properly, eh? (Jokingly patronising) 
 

Now you’ve added the bits about Souness’s job as manager and the Sun article I feel that adds a lot more to your reasoning. Loads of people understandably can’t get past that when thinking about Souness and his place in our club greats list. I 100% get that. I’ve seen him apologise multiple times for the Sun article, and I feel those apologies were genuine and heartfelt and so I’ve moved on from it. I think he 100% regrets it. In fact I know it, and so I’ve forgiven him in my head and moved on. Many haven’t. I think it’s sad that they can’t find it in them to forgive something from 30 years ago that the person has repeatedly and profoundly apologised for, but that’s absolutely their prerogative.
 

He also cocked up as manager, but I’m absolutely fine with that. I was very happy when he took over. He came in with his ideas and they failed. He didn’t do it on purpose and he lost his job, so I’ve no issue there. That’s just football. 
 

I’m not suggesting Kenny shouldn’t be No. 1, but I’m also not suggesting he should be. The position is meritorious. If somebody thinks a player was better, then make your case. @The Guest doesn’t rate older players at all, so he most likely doesn’t have Kenny at one. At a wild guess, I reckon Gerrard is his No. 1. And that’s fine. But as it’s a footy forum we get to question it too. Just as he has downplayed and questioned our choices. But I certainly hope at some point Kenny slips from number 1 as that'll mean we’ve signed an amazing player at some point in the future. 
 


 

 

Plenty of fans have Suarez as number one.

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5 minutes ago, Tony Moanero said:

Plenty of fans have Suarez as number one.

I think a some fans have him as the most talented player to have ever played for the club, and maybe having had the single most outrageously good season. However "best" probably requires a greater degree of longevity, and the cause is also helped by a perception (rightly or wrongly) that a player has a degree of affiliation with the club. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I think a some fans have him as the most talented player to have ever played for the club, and maybe having had the single most outrageously good season.

 

However "best" probably requires a greater degree of longevity, and the cause is also helped by a perception (rightly or wrongly) that a player has a degree of affiliation with the club. 

 

 

I agree with the second part. In my opinion, Kenny Dalglish is the most talented player to have played for Liverpool.

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10 minutes ago, Tony Moanero said:

I agree with the second part. In my opinion, Kenny Dalglish is the most talented player to have played for Liverpool.

Fair enough, Tony.

 

Decent arguments could be made for Gerrard, Dalglish, Barnes and Suarez. And that's just attacking players. Hansen and VVD were/are phenomenally talented footballers. For example, sometimes during games I just watch what VVD does for five minutes and I'm blown away by his technical, physical and tactical ability. 

 

How do you go about comparing them to attacking players? It's difficult.

 

 

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