Do you agree with the following statements (re: Rafa)

[WaltonRed]

He had improved Gerrard, he's regressing and he knows it himself.

[Carra_is_legend]

For those saying Rafa hasn't improved Torres or Gerrard. Have a look at their goalscoring records before and after working with Rafa. Seriously, go do it, you might surprise yourself.

 

You could also look at Kuyt's goal scoring record before he came to Liverpool.

[T0RRES]

You could also look at Kuyt's goal scoring record before he came to Liverpool.

 

Exactly, signed as a striker.

[Herp McDerp]

You could also look at Kuyt's goal scoring record before he came to Liverpool.

Have a look at Huntelaar's record in the dutch league and compare it to his record at Madrid & Milan, the Dutch league sucks donkey's balls.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Gowldilocks
Provocative.

[zigackly]

For those saying Rafa hasn't improved Torres or Gerrard. Have a look at their goalscoring records before and after working with Rafa. Seriously, go do it, you might surprise yourself.

 

I personally did not say he hadn't improved them. I said they would have improved under any manager worth his wage packet. Where is the list of players Rafa has improved who were not already well known to be potentially world class before he bought them?

 

The opening post said he was one of the best in the business at improving players. Only a fool would say he has never improved any players, but I don't see him as one of the best in the business.

[Brownie]

Gerrard scores loads of goals because he plays further forward under Rafa. That's one of his biggest successes since he's beem here, as is buying Torres.

 

Unfortunately there are plenty of other examples which have proven to be failures.

 

Not sure about the point of this thread though.

[Ted]

Huntelaar had almost a 1 in 2 record with Madrid.

[Carra_is_legend]

Have a look at Huntelaar's record in the dutch league and compare it to his record at Madrid & Milan, the Dutch league sucks donkey's balls.

 

Sure.

 

But then you could look at RVN's record. He turned out ok, didn't he?

 

Or even Van Persie.

[Herp McDerp]

Sure.

 

But then you could look at RVN's record. He turned out ok, didn't he?

 

Or even Van Persie.

Fair enough, comes down to whether you rate Kuyt as highly as those two I suppose.

[Herp McDerp]

Huntelaar had almost a 1 in 2 record with Madrid.

8 in 20 according to Wikipedia.

 

edit:13 starts.

[WaltonRed]

Huntelaar is a good player.

 

If he actually played for Milan and had of started more for Madrid you'd see that.

 

Its not about being good or bad sometimes its about whether the manager fancies you or not.

[Ted]

8 in 20 according to Wikipedia.

 

edit:13 starts.

 

That's not a bad record, really.

[aws]

That's not a bad record, really.

 

Almost to N'Gog standard.

[PaulMcC]

I can't be bothered with this but Reina wasn't a top international when we signed him.

 

He's now the best keeper in the world, but still isn't a top international.

[sparta7]

No - i think quite a few managers would have helped them develop

 

No - because of our annual championship destroying slump

 

No - hes been pretty classless afetr some games this season.

[Jens]

The opening post said he was one of the best in the business at improving players. Only a fool would say he has never improved any players, but I don't see him as one of the best in the business.

 

Name three managers that are better, and tell us why.

Don´t forget how he transformed mediocre Valencia players into winners. Mista, Vicente, Baraja for example.

[drewy]

Name three managers that are better, and tell us why.

Don´t forget how he transformed mediocre Valencia players into winners. Mista, Vicente, Baraja for example.

 

Oh dear.

[Delmar]

1. Rafa is one of the best in the business at developing players. Reina, Gerrard and Torres had probably not been the same players had they played under another manager during the last few seasons.

 

Yes, he is one of the best in developing players. But you have wrong examples there. Those guys are world class talents, they just need polishing. However, one can see the difference he made with Lucas, Arbeloa, Alonso, Kuyt, etc.

 

2. Rafa is capable of transforming a bunch of players into a unit that can be strong throughout a whole season.

 

I think he is capable of that, but he has not done it apart from last year. This year is down the drain, pretty much. So this one is more of no, not so far.

 

3. Rafa is a gentleman, gracious in defeat. He rather points out his team´s mistakes than going after the referee after a bad performance.

 

I think this is true, mainly, the injuries this season are real, and he blames the referees way less than most. He looks at things fairly realistically, as far as I can tell.

 

If you do, then isn´t it obvious he´s the right man for Liverpool Football Club?

 

I think he is the right man, but not necessarily for the above reasons. Furthermore, whether he is the right man is not at all obvious, but in fact highly debatable. I just dislike the fact that he has been forced to fight with one hand behind his back as long as he has been here.

[Juan Galonso]

Have a look at Huntelaar's record in the dutch league and compare it to his record at Madrid & Milan, the Dutch league sucks donkey's balls.

 

Ruud van who?

[zigackly]

Name three managers that are better, and tell us why.

 

Let's start with the three most obvious ones.

 

José Pekerman won the FIFA World Youth Championship three times (1995, 1997 and 2001), and the South American Youth Championship (U20) twice (1997 and 1999). He hasn't been widely regarded as one of the best managers at senior level, but you have to say he is probably the best manager in the game for youth development.

 

Arsene Wenger, I shouldn't think needs any explanation, neither does that Baconfaced twat down the East Lancs, since proving Jockey wrong.

 

Need I go on? Even our former manager Gerard Houllier had a better record with youth development than Rafa when working with France, and overseeing Owen and Gerrard's development through the ranks.

 

As for developing older players, I could name a few who Rafa got improvements out of in his first season, eg Carragher, Biscan and Traore, but you could argue that in two of those cases he simply liberated them from being played out of position.

 

I don't think he is a BAD developer of players, but I don't think he is one of the best around either: I could equally list a number of players who seem to have gone backwards under Rafa or not fulfilled their potential.

 

If I was to list his positive attributes as a manager, I could give you a fine long list, but spotting and developing talent would not feature highly on it.

 

Don´t forget how he transformed mediocre Valencia players into winners. Mista, Vicente, Baraja for example.

 

Well I don't think Valencia were considered mediocre when they got to two Champions League finals just before he took over, do you? I'll give you Mista though.

[Original202]

I'm pretty sure it's a managers job to get the best from players and to mould a team. It's the minimum you expect.

 

We'll be saying the minimum requirement is just for a manager to win more games than he loses next.

[Little Sammy]

1. Rafa is one of the best in the business at developing players. Reina, Gerrard and Torres had probably not been the same players had they played under another manager during the last few seasons.

 

2. Rafa is capable of transforming a bunch of players into a unit that can be strong throughout a whole season.

 

3. Rafa is a gentleman, gracious in defeat. He rather points out his team´s mistakes than going after the referee after a bad performance.

 

 

 

If you do, then isn´t it obvious he´s the right man for Liverpool Football Club?

 

 

1. For every Reina, Gerrard and Torres, there's always a Josemi, Nunez, Kromkamp, Mark Gonzalez, Paletta, Pennant, Lucas, Babel, Voronin, Leto, Keane, Degen, Dossena, Kyriagos, and so on.

 

2. Fair enough, but I'd rather have a unit which wins league titles than one which has gone the whole of his 5 seasons without a single one.

 

3. Again, if being gracious in defat is one of Rafa's major attributes (it's not by the way), then I'd want him sacked in an instant. What I want is a winning mentality, not fucking gracefulness in defeat.

[Section_31]

Jens is Pellegrino and I claim my $5

[kop]

Do you agree with the following statements (re: Rafa):

 

1. We have way too many Rafa-threads these days, all resulting in pretty much the same discussion.

 

2. We could gain much needed forum-peace by merging every Rafa-thread into one, like the transfer-thread we had this summer.

 

3. All Rafa-threads, pro or con, tries to make the truth either black or white while the actual truth most likely is inbetween.

[Brownie]

Do you agree with the following statements (re: Rafa):

 

1. We have way too many Rafa-threads these days, all resulting in pretty much the same discussion.

 

2. We could gain much needed forum-peace by merging every Rafa-thread into one, like the transfer-thread we had this summer.

 

3. All Rafa-threads, pro or con, tries to make the truth either black or white while the actual truth most likely is inbetween.

 

I certainly agree with this.