Is Rafa capable of winning the Premier League?

[The Owld Fecker]

The reason I'm asking is that I don't believe he actually understands what is required.

 

Ever since the days of Shankley Liverpool have had teams that had leaders all over the pitch and the vast majority of players could look after themselves if they needed to.

 

Now, I look at Rafa's teams and without Gerrard and Carragher they seem toothless in a similar way to Arsenal.

 

Chelsea and Man Utd, on the other hand!!

 

Fine if your competing in European competitions where the ability to engage in physical battles is not so important but not cut out for the Premier League.

 

Far too many just seem to lack genuine "bottle".

 

 

 

Thoughts.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

The reason I'm asking is that I don't believe he actually understands what is required.

 

Ever since the days of Shankley Liverpool have had teams that had leaders all over the pitch and the vast majority of players could look after themselves if they needed to.

 

Now, I look at Rafa's teams and without Gerrard and Carragher they seem toothless in a similar way to Arsenal.

 

Chelsea and Man Utd, on the other hand!!

 

Fine if your competing in European competitions where the ability to engage in physical battles is not so important but not cut out for the Premier League.

 

Far too many just seem to lack genuine "bottle".

 

 

 

Thoughts.

 

:sleep:

[Guest Ulysses Everett McGill]

The reason I'm asking is that I don't believe he actually understands what is required.

 

Ever since the days of Shankley Liverpool have had teams that had leaders all over the pitch and the vast majority of players could look after themselves if they needed to.

 

Now, I look at Rafa's teams and without Gerrard and Carragher they seem toothless in a similar way to Arsenal.

 

Chelsea and Man Utd, on the other hand!!

 

Fine if your competing in European competitions where the ability to engage in physical battles is not so important but not cut out for the Premier League.

 

Far too many just seem to lack genuine "bottle".

 

 

 

Thoughts.

 

 

Who's Shankley?

 

Nice try though, actually, no it wasn't, at all

[RedinSweden]

Great idea for a thread.

[The Owld Fecker]

Who's Shankley?

 

Nice try though, actually, no it wasn't, at all

 

Oops, sorry!

 

Having said that, the first Liverpool team that I remember stills trips, automatically, off of the tongue.

 

L,L,B,M,Y,S,C.H.St J,S,T.

 

If you can remember it too then look at all of the leaders in there!

 

Not bad for a Sunderland supporter!

 

;)

 

The question, though, was a serious one - not an attempted wind up.

Edited November 6, 2009 by The Owld Fecker

[Barrington Womble]

The reason I'm asking is that I don't believe he actually understands what is required.

 

Ever since the days of Shankley Liverpool have had teams that had leaders all over the pitch and the vast majority of players could look after themselves if they needed to.

 

Now, I look at Rafa's teams and without Gerrard and Carragher they seem toothless in a similar way to Arsenal.

 

Chelsea and Man Utd, on the other hand!!

 

Fine if your competing in European competitions where the ability to engage in physical battles is not so important but not cut out for the Premier League.

 

Far too many just seem to lack genuine "bottle".

 

 

 

Thoughts.

 

Anyone who has read my posts over the years knows I'm no fan of the manager, but I think recruiting "captains" has actually been one of his aims. Kuyt (was captain at feyenoord), Torres (captain at Atleti), Keane (captain at Spurs), masch (captain of argentina), benayoun (captain of israel) and even insua (captain at all levels but senior for the argies). And that's what just spring immediately to mind from players the manager has brought in. Having people who are used to leading on the field is not a problem for us imo.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

The reason I'm asking is that I don't believe he actually understands what is required.

 

The fact that he game within two draws of it last season doesn't really support this. As for your point about leaders, well that's just nonsensical. You only have to look at the amount of players that were captains and vice captains at former clubs.

[Fowlers God]

Anyone who has read my posts over the years knows I'm no fan of the manager, but I think recruiting "captains" has actually been one of his aims. Kuyt (was captain at feyenoord), Torres (captain at Atleti), Keane (captain at Spurs), masch (captain of argentina), benayoun (captain of israel) and even insua (captain at all levels but senior for the argies). And that's what just spring immediately to mind from players the manager has brought in. Having people who are used to leading on the field is not a problem for us imo.

 

FAIL

 

Masch was a forgotten promise sat on curbishley's bench at West Ham until we bought him.

 

Apart from that one epic fail. You have managed to include a post of 4 players who are still playing for liverpool that have been captains at one stage in the career. How about the rest of the squad?

 

I do like your idea's though!

[Catch22]

The reason I'm asking is that I don't believe he actually understands what is required.

 

Ever since the days of Shankley Liverpool have had teams that had leaders all over the pitch and the vast majority of players could look after themselves if they needed to.

 

Now, I look at Rafa's teams and without Gerrard and Carragher they seem toothless in a similar way to Arsenal.

 

Chelsea and Man Utd, on the other hand!!

 

Fine if your competing in European competitions where the ability to engage in physical battles is not so important but not cut out for the Premier League.

 

Far too many just seem to lack genuine "bottle".

 

 

 

Thoughts.

 

You say that Rafa might not be capable of winning the PL but he has won a League of at least as high quality.

You then compare us to Arse, who are managed by a man who has proved he is capable of winning the PL, by doing it 3 times.

 

The reason Arse & ourselves can't win the PL is because we spend vastly less than the Mancs,Chavs & now City which must leave gaps in the squad.

 

At some point this season the areas which Arse have had to neglect for financial reasons will hurt them & there will be similar idiotic media criticism that is Wenger's fault.

 

If Avran Grant had been in charge all season his points average would have won the League yet the idea that he is a great manager is extremely far-fetched.

 

The best driver can't win Forumla 1 unless he is in 1 of the fastest cars & no manager can win the modern PL unless he has 1 of the top 2/3 paying squads.

 

And the idea that our players lack "bottle" is ludicrous.

[Whelan]

Anyone who has read my posts over the years knows I'm no fan of the manager, but I think recruiting "captains" has actually been one of his aims. Kuyt (was captain at feyenoord), Torres (captain at Atleti), Keane (captain at Spurs), masch (captain of argentina), benayoun (captain of israel) and even insua (captain at all levels but senior for the argies). And that's what just spring immediately to mind from players the manager has brought in. Having people who are used to leading on the field is not a problem for us imo.

 

I think you are on the right track with how he has recruited players, but as with the highlighted players, there is a flaw, particularly against Lyon at home the two highlighted just stood back and watched (IMO). I think the mentality of some of our players stinks, which is why Gerrard and Torres is becoming an issue, too many lack the appetite for a scrap and when the going gets tough wilt, Aurelios performance against Arsenal the 4-4 springs to mind.

 

That is why I was so pleased with Agger (despite still being injury prone) on Wednesday and Torres in general, they are prepared to fight their way through this patch and have no problems taking responsibility.

 

Oh, and yes he can win the league, I am 90% convinced he can (only nobheads are 100% convinced of anything).

[WhiskeyJar]

Sorry, I cant agree, and due to the hugeness of the reply that I am thinking of I just dont have time to type the reply since I am at work.

 

I guess you just to work out my reply!!

[King Emlyn]

He's capable yes, but not in the current situation i wouldn't have thought. I'm not sure anybody would be.

[navbasi]

He's capable yes, but not in the current situation i wouldn't have thought. I'm not sure anybody would be.

 

Seconded.

[Barrington Womble]

FAIL

 

Masch was a forgotten promise sat on curbishley's bench at West Ham until we bought him.

 

Apart from that one epic fail. You have managed to include a post of 4 players who are still playing for liverpool that have been captains at one stage in the career. How about the rest of the squad?

 

I do like your idea's though!

 

as far as i know masch has captain argentina at every level he's played at for the argies and was always a captain in waiting. Apart from a few months at WHU, he's always been seen as a top player and a leader. We got him, but I bet just about every club in europe looking for that type of player would have been in for him given the chance - we are a top club, so he came to us. He's always been a leader and that what we bought. I would give you a big "FAIL" too, but I am not nerdy enough to know how to do that! As for how about the rest of the squad - on Wednesday we had at least 5 "captains" on the pitch (carra, insua, masch, kuyt, torres), how many do you want (and i might be wrong, but the Greek might also have been a captain in the past too)? We have more than enough leaders on the pitch, what we need is more ability at playing football.

[Barrington Womble]

I think you are on the right track with how he has recruited players, but as with the highlighted players, there is a flaw, particularly against Lyon at home the two highlighted just stood back and watched (IMO). I think the mentality of some of our players stinks, which is why Gerrard and Torres is becoming an issue, too many lack the appetite for a scrap and when the going gets tough wilt, Aurelios performance against Arsenal the 4-4 springs to mind.

 

That is why I was so pleased with Agger (despite still being injury prone) on Wednesday and Torres in general, they are prepared to fight their way through this patch and have no problems taking responsibility.

 

Oh, and yes he can win the league, I am 90% convinced he can (only nobheads are 100% convinced of anything).

 

There is a difference between being a leader and an inconsistent or not very good footballer. Torres and Gerrard are just better platers, so they look like they are trying when in fact it's just they are better than others. There are times when Benayoun and Kuyt can be a little out of their depth football wise and that is clearly less applicable to players such as torres, gerrard and agger imo.

[bigbak]

If he'd been given 5 years to build a team regardless of results and with the same money he'd have done it by now. As it is, he had to continue qualifying for the Champions Leagues while rebuilding a poor squad that Houllier left behind.

The press point at some poor signings, but given the money he's had, he's needed to take gambles.

 

I'd point the finger at the scouts for not finding the cheap gems like other teams that are catching up have managed to.

 

Will he win it now? I'm doubtful. Man U and Chelsea have bankrolled their squads over the years and can get away with adding a £30m player with a couple of gambles each season.

Arsenal are an enigma.

If Chelsea think they can get £150m for the naming rights on Stamford Bridge, what should we get? Imagine an extra £10m a year on the transfer kitty?

[Whelan]

There is a difference between being a leader and an inconsistent or not very good footballer. Torres and Gerrard are just better platers, so they look like they are trying when in fact it's just they are better than others. There are times when Benayoun and Kuyt can be a little out of their depth football wise and that is clearly less applicable to players such as torres, gerrard and agger imo.

 

Don't think I explained that very well, a good example to me of a 'winning' mentality is Lucas (note Mentality Silverling! not player), he always wants the ball, never hides, no matter what the situation and no matter how much criticism he is getting, the same with Carragher no matter how poorly he has been playing he has not hid.

 

Maybe Kuyt is not good enough and as the team is playing poorly that shows, but Benny has all the skills in the world and I am reminded at present what the Hammers in work said about him 'Good when you are playing well, but won't get you out of a hole'. You don't have to be a great player to show for the ball, to put yourself on the line, to make yourself available, in that sense Benny is found wanting, as is Aurelio and Babel. Three players who are better than Park, Fletcher (contentious I know) but have less effect on the team.

[ThePositiveOne]

Given his current working conditions, I'd say no....

 

Improve then then yes, definitely....

[Antynwa]

I think he's been capble of winning the league for the past two seasons.

[The Woolster]

as far as i know masch has captain argentina at every level he's played at for the argies and was always a captain in waiting. Apart from a few months at WHU, he's always been seen as a top player and a leader. We got him, but I bet just about every club in europe looking for that type of player would have been in for him given the chance - we are a top club, so he came to us. He's always been a leader and that what we bought. I would give you a big "FAIL" too, but I am not nerdy enough to know how to do that! As for how about the rest of the squad - on Wednesday we had at least 5 "captains" on the pitch (carra, insua, masch, kuyt, torres), how many do you want (and i might be wrong, but the Greek might also have been a captain in the past too)? We have more than enough leaders on the pitch, what we need is more ability at playing football.

 

I think Lucas has been captain of Brazil at junior levels as well, so that is 6

[Carlos Durninio]

Should have won it last season but couldn't help but interfere, so yes he can.

 

Not that it concerns you mind.

[Crazyhorse7778]

Alonso was captain at Sociedad aswell wasn't he?

[The Owld Fecker]

I take the points made about Rafa having recruited players who have captained teams.

 

However, just being a captain is not always a good yardstick.

 

SG, for me is a great captain as someone who never hides, inspires by example as well as expecting the same passion in others and is not scared to let them know when they fall short and I see JC in a similar light as I did Alonso when he was with you.

 

A team, though IMHO needs a fair sprinkling of similar characters to be strong enough to win the Premier and I just don't think that you have enough of them.

 

Think back to your title winning teams of the past and when you compare the players you will see what I mean.

 

We had Whitehead as captain for a number of seasons and he never hid but was not passionate and was not the type to get at others.

 

Now we have Cana who is more of a Stevie G character as well as a number of others with similar qualities and the difference is remarkable!

 

Also, in using Arsenal as a comparison I was not comparing the managers but highlighting the fact that they have never managed to replace the likes of Viera, Adams etc.with similar characters, so IMHO cannot be considerd serious title contenders.

 

Maybe, I should have should of emphasised more about the characteristics I was thinking of - not just used the word "leader", which can be interpreted as captain.

[Guest LFD]

You say that Rafa might not be capable of winning the PL but he has won a League of at least as high quality.

You then compare us to Arse, who are managed by a man who has proved he is capable of winning the PL, by doing it 3 times.

 

The reason Arse & ourselves can't win the PL is because we spend vastly less than the Mancs,Chavs & now City which must leave gaps in the squad.

 

At some point this season the areas which Arse have had to neglect for financial reasons will hurt them & there will be similar idiotic media criticism that is Wenger's fault.

 

If Avran Grant had been in charge all season his points average would have won the League yet the idea that he is a great manager is extremely far-fetched.

 

The best driver can't win Forumla 1 unless he is in 1 of the fastest cars & no manager can win the modern PL unless he has 1 of the top 2/3 paying squads.

 

And the idea that our players lack "bottle" is ludicrous.

 

I agree with this.

[Delmar]

I hate Sunderland.