Outside View of Benitez.........

[coachpotato]

 

Lad's a Boro fan apparently.

[coachpotato]

Cancel that, the links been moved!!

[Manny]

Cancel that, the links been moved!!

 

Here it is, I think.

 

Rafa Deserves Wenger-Style Patience

 

Rafa Deserves Wenger-Style Patience

Posted 02/11/09 10:50

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So Rafa Benitez reckons he doesn't have to win trophies this year. Have you finished laughing yet? Surely football is all about winning things; it's a tiresome mantra we hear all too often. Sadly, for his critics, Benitez is absolutely correct. His idiot employers may not agree but let's forget all the wind and pish and look at some facts.

 

If I was to ask most neutrals who was the most successful manager - Benitez or Arsene Wenger, I'd guess most would say Wenger. It sounds right doesn't it? Arsenal play magnificent football, Wenger is erudite, has a clear vision for the club and consistently develops startlingly good talent. Liverpool have just lost at Fulham. Arsenal seem miles ahead. But look at the facts.

 

If you put Rafa's Premier League record up against Wenger's since his arrival in 2004, Benitez is simply more successful if, and it's a crucial if, you judge success by trophies and league positions.

 

In his five years at the club he has won the Champions League, the FA Cup and the Super Cup. He has taken Liverpool to a higher league finish than Arsenal three times out of five. In those same five years Arsene Wenger has won just one FA Cup.

 

They've both been runners-up in the Premier League, Champions League and League Cup once since 2004/05.

 

It's close but in the five seasons Wenger and Benitez have competed against each other, the Spaniard is, by this measure, ahead of Wenger. So not that bad then. Are Arsenal about to sack Wenger? Of course not.

 

Only the criminally stupid would consider Wenger a failure. So why does Rafa attract such prolonged criticism when the man he has outperformed in the past five seasons rightly gets very little?

 

This is partly because Wenger has built capital with three league titles and four FA Cups since his arrival, but in the current climate of short-termism and collective amnesia, that counts for less and less. Mostly, it's because Arsenal have played some simply sublime football even when not winning anything, for which Wenger is rightly lauded.

 

More damaging to Benitez' cause is the accusation that his sides are too cautious, and simply don't play good enough football. Perhaps if they were playing like Arsenal and achieving the same results, his critics would back off. But that's unrealistic. Wenger has been in situ for eight years longer and built the club in his own image against a largely stable background. Benitez has not had that luxury and yet has still done better than Arsenal in his tenure.

 

People say he is cold, prickly, and even arrogant and doesn't man-manage well. Without being on the inside, it's impossible to say, however, even if it's true, let me state again, it's delivered better results than Wenger's supposedly superior methods in this period.

 

Surely, given Wenger's well-deserved stellar reputation, this should be a cause for celebration amongst Liverpool fans and should shut up his critics.

 

They constantly snipe at his managerial style, his transfer records and his tactics in a way that no-one would dream of doing about Wenger but once again, I say look at the results. They might not always have played more attractive football but they have finished higher more often and won more trophies. And on the cheap, he has brought the finest striker of his generation to the club in Torres. Let's also not forget Liverpool were a massive 14 points better than Arsenal last year.

 

Without going over the behind-the-scenes machinations again - I wrote enough about them a couple of weeks ago - Benitez has out-performed Wenger against a background of doubt and uncertainty. It's only eight weeks until the transfer window opens and he still hasn't a clue if any money will be available to him. So he can't plan ahead with any detail. That's no way to run a business.

 

People who say he should be doing better forget that Liverpool are trying to over-throw a couple of football behemoths in Manchester United and Chelsea; clubs with exceptional resources in Chelsea's case and exceptional pedigree and pulling power in United's.

 

This is a humongous task.

 

Over-hauling Chelsea last season was an exceptional achievement and not getting past United is a failure every club has experienced for 11 out of the last 17 seasons. They are simply an awesome organisation led by an extraordinary man in Ferguson. You can't just overthrow them that easily. Chelsea threw over £500 million and six managers at it and only managed to do it twice. I mean, let's get a perspective here.

 

Wenger is rightly acclaimed as a managerial genius but even he has only won three league titles in 13 years and two of those were achieved before the Abramovitch money transformed Chelsea. This is the size of Benitez' task.

 

The fact is progress can't always be made in a smooth, straight line, especially when there is so much turmoil at the club. The road to victory can be a bumpy one.

 

All the Benitez haters who want to see the back of him should realise that he has constructed a formidable power base at the club. All his men are in place in all the key staffing positions. He has almost certainly got a prohibitively expensive pay-out clause in his contract should he be sacked and he signed an extension to 2014 in March.

 

Unless he wants to, it's unlikely that he's going anywhere soon, regardless of this season's results. Getting rid of him would involve a revolution at the club which no-one can be certain would turn out positively. Indeed, things could get much, much worse. Imagine if rather than under-achieving, Rafa has over-achieved so far, given the circumstances he's worked in. His critics need to consider that as a real possibility. This is one tough, some would say impossible, gig he's playing.

 

And anyway, no top-class manager would want his job - working under a couple of comedians like Hicks and Gillett and constantly being on the verge of financial meltdown.

 

Until the club is sold, stabilised and resources delivered, Liverpool is a poisoned chalice. Forget all this Jose Mourinho nonsense, you can't afford him and he wouldn't touch the club in its present state - he's far too canny an operator.

 

This season might turn out to be a poor one by Rafa's standards. So be it. Everyone should be allowed an occasional poor season.

 

When Arsenal has a dip in form, it's called a 'transitional' season. But at Liverpool, it's called a crisis. All concerned need the kind of patience and understanding assigned to Wenger.

 

The size of Liverpool's task - to win the league - is being radically under-estimated by his fiercest opponents. Contrary to popular belief, Benitez isn't a failure at Liverpool, on the contrary, he's already achieved so much. Sacking him now wouldn't be surprising - but it would be an act of monumental stupidity.

[Carlos Durninio]

I read an article by a Villa fan on newsnow yesterday, who is delighted about our current predicament, even going as far as saying he would rather see us lose than Villa win.

 

It's like the top 4 has become the property of these no marks whose own clubs are unlikely to ever see much success, and every fucker wants their say. The internet has played a big role in destroying traditional football support.

[RedinSweden]

I read an article by a Villa fan on newsnow yesterday, who is delighted about our current predicament, even going as far as saying he would rather see us lose than Villa win.

 

It's like the top 4 has become the property of these no marks whose own clubs are unlikely to ever see much success, and every fucker wants their say. The internet has played a big role in destroying traditional football support.

 

Villa? what the fuck? Anyone who prefers defeat of another club to a win for theirs is a massive fucking loser.

[Lefti]

Fantastic article, really good read. Albeit, Rafa has out spent Wenger in that time (which i saw the writer forgot to mention), the fact of the matter is that Rafa had to do that, he had to get "his" squad together, Wenger had 8 years previous to do that time in. This article has really put a smile on my face. Thank you to the poster.

[Carlos Durninio]

Aston Villa Blog - Rafa is cracking up, he's cracking up, he's crack ip

[edinjapan]

Great article and spot on.

[shaunstrudwick]

if Benitez needs time - he needs time without the 2 yank cunts in charge

 

however if the yanks do sell then the new owners will want to bring their own man in (imo)

 

i personally do not think that Benitez has ever looked capable of winning the league - the CL yes - but not the league

 

the yanks will never get rid of Benitez while they are in charge imo - he would only be let go if they were close to selling up

[milky]

Aston Villa Blog - Rafa is cracking up, he's cracking up, he's crack ip

 

The fuck? I've never really minded Villa, but they can fuck off with that shite. I'd say a lot of opposition fans are loving our predicament. A mate of mine showed me a Chelsea forum a while ago, and the hatred for us was unbelievable! I couldn't get over how much they hated us above any other team.

[Fowlers God]

A very good read.

 

Makes you think, what if we have over achieved?

[Nomad]

The fuck? I've never really minded Villa, but they can fuck off with that shite. I'd say a lot of opposition fans are loving our predicament. A mate of mine showed me a Chelsea forum a while ago, and the hatred for us was unbelievable! I couldn't get over how much they hated us above any other team.[/QUOTE]

 

The problem with the chelsea fans and the reason they hate us so much, its down to the fact we dont realy care about them our rivelry is towards the Mancs and bitters and they cant understand why we dont pay them much attention.

 

They think that just because they have shot to success because of a huge buyout that we should hate them and be botherd by them, when infact most of our fans dont realy care about them at all.

 

So they are trying to create a rivelry as they dont realy have one of there own.

[05 Milan]

The problem with the chelsea fans and the reason they hate us so much, its down to the fact we dont realy care about them our rivelry is towards the Mancs and bitters and they cant understand why we dont pay them much attention.

 

Watch the 2004-2005 CL semi-final again and then review that statement. Yes, there was a place in the final to play for, but I'm not sure it would've been the same atmosphere if we'd played Barcelona. The level of hate for Chelsea inside that ground was pretty high.

[Nomad]

Watch the 2004-2005 CL semi-final again and then review that statement. Yes, there was a place in the final to play for, but I'm not sure it would've been the same atmosphere if we'd played Barcelona. The level of hate for Chelsea inside that ground was pretty high.

 

No doubt and what you say is correct the venom that night was incredible but I put that down to hunger and our fans showing them what we are built on.

 

Overall in my opinion I dont beleive we have the same amount of hatred for them as we do for the mancs.

 

obviosley thats not the only reason they hate us but I think iot adds to it

[Xherdan]

Watch the 2004-2005 CL semi-final again and then review that statement. Yes, there was a place in the final to play for, but I'm not sure it would've been the same atmosphere if we'd played Barcelona. The level of hate for Chelsea inside that ground was pretty high.

 

 

Can you imagine what it would have been like had we played the mancs or the bitters on that same night with the same final at stake? The place would have fucking exploded.

[shaunstrudwick]

A very good read.

 

Makes you think, what if we have over achieved?

 

we have over acheived - especially winning in Istanbul and finishing 2nd last year

 

i honestly do not know what needs to happen at this club to bring success

 

i just feel that benitez's time has run it's course - maybe premeturely cos of the ownerships problems - but run it's course all the same

[Nomad]

Can you imagine what it would have been like had we played the mancs or the bitters on that same night with the same final at stake? The place would have fucking exploded.

 

Hehe bitters CL Semi-Final. :whistle:

[milky]

Can you imagine what it would have been like had we played the mancs or the bitters on that same night with the same final at stake? The place would have fucking exploded.

 

Am I right in saying that we could have plated Utd in Athens if they had beaten Milan? I dont think I could handle that. It'd be meltdown.

[INTORRESTING]

villa are getting ideas above their station, not our rivals.

[05 Milan]

Can you imagine what it would have been like had we played the mancs or the bitters on that same night with the same final at stake? The place would have fucking exploded.

 

Maybe, I don't know. That season was unique. Mourinho's shushing, the Gerrard-saga, Fatty breaking Xabi's ankle, various stories creeping out about those arrogant cunts felt they were already in the final. It was just unprecedented circumstances, and I doubt the atmosphere could've been much louder or intense with the mancs or the shite.

 

Of course, that hate is gone now, as it was mostly fuelled by them bursting on to the scene and surpassing us while spending shedloads of money. We're practically on level terms with them now, but they were lightyears ahead four years ago.

[Manny]

Maybe, I don't know. That season was unique. Mourinho's shushing, the Gerrard-saga, Fatty breaking Xabi's ankle, various stories creeping out about those arrogant cunts felt they were already in the final. It was just unprecedented circumstances, and I doubt the atmosphere could've been much louder or intense with the mancs or the shite.

 

Of course, that hate is gone now, as it was mostly fuelled by them bursting on to the scene and surpassing us while spending shedloads of money. We're practically on level terms with them now, but they were lightyears ahead four years ago.

 

The Mourinho factor was huge, as was some of the really dodgy decisions we got against them that season. The hate has rescinded a lot because of the resurgence of the mancs. It's reminded us of our priorities.

[llego]

A little sad that other teams fans see it more clearly than 60% of ours

[cracker]

Yeah I get 442 magazine (the only intelligent footy mag btw - Ok theres some rubbish in it but it always a good read - mind you for over £4 per copy it should be).

 

Anyway as i was saying some of the stuff in there I find surprising re the level of hatred for us. They do a season preview every year where a fan has to name the team he'd most like to beat (and both Chelsea and Villa said us) and their most hated opponent - no not Drogba or Micheal Brown or Rooney or Lucas Neill or Terry but one lad (can't remeber what team he was from) said Jamie Carragher - I could not believe it. Why hate Carra? - I would have thought even to people outside of Anfield he'd be respected for his effort, loyalty, honesty in interviews ...etc but not so it seems.

 

Oh and another thing similar to this which I have just remebered - on Saturday in the Daily Post they have an interview 'Ask the enemy' or something like that where they ask a fan of the opponents about their season and the Villa fan when asked about their game V Everton had to get a dig in at the 'fat Spanish waiter' questioning why he still had a job - well out of order imo. I just cannot get my head round why some seem to hate Rafa and have time for Slur when if you look at the facts (!!) anyone with any fairness should come to the opposite view.

Edited November 2, 2009 by cracker

[laddo]

I read an article by a Villa fan on newsnow yesterday, who is delighted about our current predicament, even going as far as saying he would rather see us lose than Villa win.

 

Thats Villa fans for you. Theyre thick as fuck and about as unloyal as they come. Turn on their players and manager easily.

 

I hate Brummies too.

 

Love to see them cunts go down and O'Neill be found out for the useless twat he is.

[Manny]

Yeah I get 442 magazine (the only intelligent footy mag btw - Ok theres some rubbish in it but it always a good read - mind you for over £4 per copy it should be).

 

Anyway as i was saying some of the stuff in there I find surprising re the level of hatred for us. They do a season preview every year where a fan has to name the team he'd most like to beat (and both Chelsea and Villa said us) and their most hated opponent - no not Drogba or Micheal Brown or Rooney or Lucas Neill or Terry but one lad (can't remeber what team he was from) said Jamie Carragher - I could not believe it. Why hate Carra? - I would have thought even to people outside of Anfield he'd be respected for his effort, loyalty, honesty in interviews ...etc but not so it seems.

 

I was talking to a lad my girlfriend knows - he's an Arsenal fan. The amount of credence a lot of Londoners give to the "bottler" theory about him retiring from i*ternational football is astounding. He, and some of the lads he was with, were convinced that every man in the country should consider it the highest honour to play for England. I pointed out that everyone feels differently and was entitled to do so, as well as most of the obvious counterarguments but they fell on deaf ears. To the Ingerlund bunch, Jamie Carragher has committed treason.

 

It's probably the opposite with why we loathe John Terry so much, but a lot of other team's fans have no problem with him.