Rafa- it's time to go

[Barrington Womble]

When rafa signed his new contract, in order to gain control he tied himself Into an agreed budget spend. If he didn't think this budget was enough to be competitive then he shouldn't have signed it. If he signed it knowing the funds would be insufficient, that's his problem, as he clearly put his desire for control before the long and short term interests of the club.

 

This is his team, his squad. The team has got worse for the last 3 transfer windows. The fringe players seem to be less committed than ever before. All of these things are the responsibility of nobody but the manager. He chooses who we buy and sell despite what spin he tries to use.

 

Our owners are a pair if cunts, but anyone who believes they are totally responsible for this inadaquate bunch of shithouse cunts wearing our shirt at the moment, you're kidding yourselves. People have to entertain the idea that it's possible that we've not only

got the wrong people owning the club, we also have the wrong person running the football operations.

 

Watching benitez yesterday he looks like a broken man who has no fucking idea what to do next. We've lost 8 matches before November. I can't imagine another club in a major league with aspirations of winning the league and European cup accepting this run of form, why should we? This manager should not be allowed to waste any more of our budget in January, he has to go before he takes this squad further backwards. Benitez has won his trophies using other peoples players, he clearly does not seem to be able to do the same with his own.

[Sangria]

Wasn't aimed at you in paticular, your post just happened to be above mine.

 

When we win this place is far less busy and far less frantic, when we lose it's almost like people revel in the fact and can't wait to repeat the 'thought' they've had all season (but shy away from repeating when the performance doesn't suit their need).

 

No problem and I did not think it was aimed at me in particular but I was one of the ones having a go and felt the need to reply.

 

This morning after a nights sleep I am still amazed at some of the decisions Rafa made yesterday and it worries me.

 

His decision making is scary to say the least and when some are comparing him to Houllier and his last season in charge and I find myself agreeing, or at least not able to argue that view point.

Quite frankly it scares me.

[stevienando]

2 CBs out, 2 RBs out, 2 CMs out. 2 harsh reds. 2 crazy substitutions. These are the reasons we lost, and only one of them was Rafa's fault. If Torres stayed on, would we have won? I'm not convinced.

[Catch22]

Were minus 8 points down on the same fixtures last season if repeated throughout the season we will be 27 points down on last season giving us a points total of 69 and probably a 5th place finish

 

Reality bites

 

 

Which is bang on where our budget suggests we should finish & so should have been the starting basis for any sensible predicition of where we will (I stupidly tried to be a bit clever & had us coming 4th, which is a classic case of over-egging the pudding)

 

We have had a few years of over-achievement (spectacularly in the CL) but that cannot continue indefinetely, by definition.

 

This is ending now & suddenly the hysteria starts.

[Catch22]

When rafa signed his new contract, in order to gain control he tied himself Into an agreed budget spend. If he didn't think this budget was enough to be competitive then he shouldn't have signed it. If he signed it knowing the funds would be insufficient, that's his problem, as he clearly put his desire for control before the long and short term interests of the club.

 

This is his team, his squad. The team has got worse for the last 3 transfer windows. The fringe players seem to be less committed than ever before. All of these things are the responsibility of nobody but the manager. He chooses who we buy and sell despite what spin he tries to use.

 

Our owners are a pair if cunts, but anyone who believes they are totally responsible for this inadaquate bunch of shithouse cunts wearing our shirt at the moment, you're kidding yourselves. People have to entertain the idea that it's possible that we've not only

got the wrong people owning the club, we also have the wrong person running the football operations.

 

Watching benitez yesterday he looks like a broken man who has no fucking idea what to do next. We've lost 8 matches before November. I can't imagine another club in a major league with aspirations of winning the league and European cup accepting this run of form, why should we? This manager should not be allowed to waste any more of our budget in January, he has to go before he takes this squad further backwards. Benitez has won his trophies using other peoples players, he clearly does not seem to be able to do the same with his own.

 

 

"When rafa signed his new contract, in order to gain control he tied himself Into an agreed budget spend. If he didn't think this budget was enough to be competitive then he shouldn't have signed it"

 

By signing it, he personally guaranteed himself £25m.

Even if he knew that the resources involved weren't enough, he would still have signed it.

 

Whether it is players that people like or managers that they don't football is their job & they behave accordingly.

[The 5th Benitel]

Which is bang on where our budget suggests we should finish & so should have been the starting basis for any sensible predicition of where we will (I stupidly tried to be a bit clever & had us coming 4th, which is a classic case of over-egging the pudding)

 

We have had a few years of over-achievement (spectacularly in the CL) but that cannot continue indefinetely, by definition.

 

This is ending now & suddenly the hysteria starts.

 

Fuck me change the fucking record. We're out of the league in October. As far as i can see the only team out of the 8/9 (i've lost count sadly enough) that have beaten us is better off financially (over the 5 years he's been here). Not every single thing is down to fucking wages. This isn't the end of the season and there's no way we should be so far off now.

 

You're obvioulsy quite distanced from the club but people who pay a lot of money and commit time and effort for the club they love. So when they're upset about the current situation it's not hysteria, it's perfectly understandable.

 

There is no set of accounts or balance sheet that will be able to justify us losing half the games we've played and realistically only being in with a shout of the FA Cup at the end of October. End of.

[cmuller]

[quote name=Catch22;1966138By signing it' date=' he personally guaranteed himself £25m.

[/quote]

 

How do you know this? - how do you know what provisions the contract contains if he gets sacked?

[The 5th Benitel]

"When rafa signed his new contract, in order to gain control he tied himself Into an agreed budget spend. If he didn't think this budget was enough to be competitive then he shouldn't have signed it"

 

By signing it, he personally guaranteed himself £25m.

Even if he knew that the resources involved weren't enough, he would still have signed it.

 

Whether it is players that people like or managers that they don't football is their job & they behave accordingly.

 

So what you're saying is the main reason people want to keep him, his affection for the club and desire to do well, is secondary behind him maiking money? Even though he could probably get more managing elsewhere?

 

That settles it then.

[cmuller]

When rafa signed his new contract, in order to gain control he tied himself Into an agreed budget spend. If he didn't think this budget was enough to be competitive then he shouldn't have signed it. If he signed it knowing the funds would be insufficient, that's his problem, as he clearly put his desire for control before the long and short term interests of the club.

 

This is his team, his squad. The team has got worse for the last 3 transfer windows. The fringe players seem to be less committed than ever before. All of these things are the responsibility of nobody but the manager. He chooses who we buy and sell despite what spin he tries to use.

 

Our owners are a pair if cunts, but anyone who believes they are totally responsible for this inadaquate bunch of shithouse cunts wearing our shirt at the moment, you're kidding yourselves. People have to entertain the idea that it's possible that we've not only

got the wrong people owning the club, we also have the wrong person running the football operations.

 

Watching benitez yesterday he looks like a broken man who has no fucking idea what to do next. We've lost 8 matches before November. I can't imagine another club in a major league with aspirations of winning the league and European cup accepting this run of form, why should we? This manager should not be allowed to waste any more of our budget in January, he has to go before he takes this squad further backwards. Benitez has won his trophies using other peoples players, he clearly does not seem to be able to do the same with his own.

 

So the much repeated question is "Who would you get in, who would improve things?"

[Catch22]

Fuck me change the fucking record. We're out of the league in October. As far as i can see the only team out of the 8/9 (i've lost count sadly enough) that have beaten us is better off financially (over the 5 years he's been here). Not every single thing is down to fucking wages. This isn't the end of the season and there's no way we should be so far off now.

 

You're obvioulsy quite distanced from the club but people who pay a lot of money and commit time and effort for the club they love. So when they're upset about the current situation it's not hysteria, it's perfectly understandable.

 

There is no set of accounts or balance sheet that will be able to justify us losing half the games we've played and realistically only being in with a shout of the FA Cup at the end of October. End of.

 

 

We were realistically out of the League before it even kicked off, & the sooner people realise that, the better.

 

The CL performance is terrible, & crashing out at the group stage would be well below what we should expect.

 

You have no idea how much time or effort I have put into following the club over the years.

Clearly a lot less than some on here but I have regularly followed us around Europe which is neither cheap nor easy & went to many old Div 1 games before football changed into Sky Sports bullshit.

I have dramatically cut back my PL games simply because I find the whole competition so tedious & over-hyped in this country

 

However it is hysteria when we have spent 5 years over-achieving & when we go thru a bad patch this all happens.

 

The club has been run terribly for at least 20 years.

Rafa comes in & wins the most important trophy any team in Europe can.

In the last 2.5 years we have gone from being run amateurly by a pair of relatively well-meaning fools to being an poorly-judged LBO just before even the good ones were about to cyclically collapse by a pair of people who hate eachother & will fiddle whilst Rome burns.

 

That deserves anger & emotion but turning on a man whose record here & in Spain is fantastic & who has given us the best 5 years in a generation does not.

[Catch22]

So what you're saying is the main reason people want to keep him, his affection for the club and desire to do well, is secondary behind him maiking money? Even though he could probably get more managing elsewhere?

 

That settles it then.

 

 

 

DM had affection for the club, but was a moron.

Everyone has a desire to do well.

 

I want to keep him because no other manager in Europe has a better record of over-achieving on a set of resources than him.

 

If you think he could get even more elsewhere then you are implicitly agreeing that he is at the very top of his profession.

Which indicates how ridiculous it would be to get rid of him.

[The 5th Benitel]

We were realistically out of the League before it even kicked off, & the sooner people realise that, the better.

 

The CL performance is terrible, & crashing out at the group stage would be well below what we should expect.

 

You have no idea how much time or effort I have put into following the club over the years.

Clearly a lot less than some on here but I have regularly followed us around Europe which is neither cheap nor easy & went to many old Div 1 games before football changed into Sky Sports bullshit.

I have dramatically cut back my PL games simply because I find the whole competition so tedious & over-hyped in this country

 

However it is hysteria when we have spent 5 years over-achieving & when we go thru a bad patch this all happens.

 

The club has been run terribly for at least 20 years.

Rafa comes in & wins the most important trophy any team in Europe can.

In the last 2.5 years we have gone from being run amateurly by a pair of relatively well-meaning fools to being an poorly-judged LBO just before even the good ones were about to cyclically collapse by a pair of people who hate eachother & will fiddle whilst Rome burns.

 

That deserves anger & emotion but turning on a man whose record here & in Spain is fantastic & who has given us the best 5 years in a generation does not.

 

 

You cant say we're out of it before it starts. I've already told you about Arsenal, Valencia, Wolfsburg. People could possibly accept if we ran them close again but it's OCTOBER. We're closer to Burnley, Stoke and Sunderland than we are to Man U and Chelsea. Is that true of our accounts over the last 5 years?

 

We haven't spent 5 years over achieving. Last year was the only time we've got past xmas in the league and even then we were one game away from being out of it in Feb.

 

No doubt we have been poorly run but in the 5 years he has been here but in the time he has been here he has been given funds that 90% of top managers would kill for. He has also made a number of shockig decisions. I know every manager makes mistakes but the amount of times he has made decisions that directly lessened the chance of us winning is shocking. I have never, ever seen another top manager take off his 3 best attacking players in a game he wasa drawing/losing. That's got nothing to do with accounts.

 

Again, people understand the mancs, chelsea and now city have an advantage in the league. However, by xmas you've basically only played teams once. That means we've played 2/3 with more money and the rest with less. Yet, only once have we been in a position to compete after that point. I dont see how a set of accounts can make that acceptable.

[The 5th Benitel]

DM had affection for the club, but was a moron.

Everyone has a desire to do well.

 

I want to keep him because no other manager in Europe has a better record of over-achieving on a set of resources than him.

 

If you think he could get even more elsewhere then you are implicitly agreeing that he is at the very top of his profession.

Which indicates how ridiculous it would be to get rid of him.

 

I think he could get more cos of his CL success in 05 and 07. I honestly dont see how it could be based on anything apart from that.

 

The point i was making is this is a results business and, given we've not won anything and that's gonna happen again, his love for the club in contrat to the owners is one of the main arguments for him to stay. You're saying he's basically just here for the money.

[Catch22]

You cant say we're out of it before it starts. I've already told you about Arsenal, Valencia, Wolfsburg. People could possibly accept if we ran them close again but it's OCTOBER. We're closer to Burnley, Stoke and Sunderland than we are to Man U and Chelsea. Is that true of our accounts over the last 5 years?

 

We haven't spent 5 years over achieving. Last year was the only time we've got past xmas in the league and even then we were one game away from being out of it in Feb.

 

No doubt we have been poorly run but in the 5 years he has been here but in the time he has been here he has been given funds that 90% of top managers would kill for. He has also made a number of shockig decisions. I know every manager makes mistakes but the amount of times he has made decisions that directly lessened the chance of us winning is shocking. I have never, ever seen another top manager take off his 3 best attacking players in a game he wasa drawing/losing. That's got nothing to do with accounts.

 

Again, people understand the mancs, chelsea and now city have an advantage in the league. However, by xmas you've basically only played teams once. That means we've played 2/3 with more money and the rest with less. Yet, only once have we been in a position to compete after that point. I dont see how a set of accounts can make that acceptable.

 

Arsenal won the League with the 2nd,2nd & 3rd highest budget (Bergkamp did not move to London to visit the Natural History Museum & he didn't join QPR, which would have been closer if he had) exactly in line with the theory (that 3rd is the only time in the modern era it has been done) & better than the position we have always found ourselves in under Rafa

 

Since they went from 2nd to 3rd they have dropped off dramatically in the PL & people have started questioning Wenger's methods when he is doing exactly the same as before, just with less reources.

 

I am perfectly happy to write off the chnaces of them winning the PL this year before a ball has been kicked as well, as they are in a very similar situation to us.

 

He took people off yesterday because we face a far more important game in mid-week (Whatever your personal preferences there is no way that the prospect of dropping £10m in our present state is not vastly more important than a game away at Fulham, & you can be damned sure that his bosses have made that perfectly clear to him)

[Catch22]

I think he could get more cos of his CL success in 05 and 07. I honestly dont see how it could be based on anything apart from that.

 

The point i was making is this is a results business and, given we've not won anything and that's gonna happen again, his love for the club in contrat to the owners is one of the main arguments for him to stay. You're saying he's basically just here for the money.

 

The main reason he signed a contract that more than doubled his pay was the money just as the main reason that Xabi went to Madrid for a similar raise was.

 

These people are now not fans like us; they are doing a job.

(Our best defender this decade & the man who has given us the most of himself on the pitch started off hating us as a fan, but joined us because it was better for his career & then played with the commitment he does, because of the great man that he is)

 

To follow their motivation, you only have to think about how we act in our careers, not in how we act in our leisure time.

 

Just because i really like Rafa, I am not naive enough not to understand why he signed that contract.

[The 5th Benitel]

Arsenal won the League with the 2nd,2nd & 3rd highest budget (Bergkamp did not move to London to visit the Natural History Museum & he didn't join QPR, which would have been closer if he had) exactly in line with the theory (that 3rd is the only time in the modern era it has been done) & better than the position we have always found ourselves in under Rafa

 

Since they went from 2nd to 3rd they have dropped off dramatically in the PL & people have started questioning Wenger's methods when he is doing exactly the same as before, just with less reources.

 

I am perfectly happy to write off the chnaces of them winning the PL this year before a ball has been kicked as well, as they are in a very similar situation to us.

 

He took people off yesterday because we face a far more important game in mid-week (Whatever your personal preferences there is no way that the prospect of dropping £10m in our present state is not vastly more important than a game away at Fulham, & you can be damned sure that his bosses have made that perfectly clear to him)

 

 

You've pretty much ignored most of the points in my last post but i will say it's not acceptable to just give up on a game that would at least keep us interested in the title for a game we're probably gonna lose anyway. How about the finances of the people who paid to go to London to watch him give up? How come i've never seen other top managers give up even when they will doubtless have had important games around the corner?

 

Again, everyone gets we are at a disadvantage but it so great that we cant compete past the half (in this case the quarter) way stage? The answer to that is fairly obvious.

[The 5th Benitel]

The main reason he signed a contract that more than doubled his pay was the money just as the main reason that Xabi went to Madrid for a similar raise was.

 

These people are now not fans like us; they are doing a job.

(Our best defender this decade & the man who has given us the most of himself on the pitch started off hating us as a fan, but joined us because it was better for his career & then played with the commitment he does, because of the great man that he is)

 

To follow their motivation, you only have to think about how we act in our careers, not in how we act in our leisure time.

 

Just because i really like Rafa, I am not naive enough not to understand why he signed that contract.

 

 

No one is suggesting he should work for comparative buttons but you made out he signed for mainly monmey reasons. Lets face it, the man and his grandkids are made for life. Surely if the assertion that he's the one person with power at the club that has genuine affection for us it wouldn't have mattered as much?

 

We get money is a major factor but it's not the be all and end all. Gerrard and Torres could easily be earning more elsewhere but they're both still here. It's not like they're on the fucking breadline either.

[Paul]

I'm conflicted: on the one hand, I think his transfer record is largely awful (regardless of budget), he's obsessed with change (sometimes rightly, but often counter-productively so) and he has alienated important players (only an opinion - I don't have proof, before someone inevitably starts ranting).

 

However, on the other hand, he had us playing the best stuff I've seen since the last title last season during the run in, I believe he knows what it takes to win the league and the context of the club's financial and ownership situations makes his dismissal a potentially calamitous option.

 

In short, he has to remain to the end of this season at least, in my opinion. CL qualification is now - as it was in GH's final season - the be all and end all. I have to say that I don't see how things can get markedly worse than this. Well, actually, I can - Lyon is looming. However, the league campaign can't continue this badly, in my view, and that is now all-important for our short-term and long-term health.

 

That said, if Hiddink or Mourinho (sickening, I know) could walk in through the doors tomorrow, I'd sack him. Unfortunately, back in the real world, that isn't going to happen.

[Catch22]

You've pretty much ignored most of the points in my last post but i will say it's not acceptable to just give up on a game that would at least keep us interested in the title for a game we're probably gonna lose anyway. How about the finances of the people who paid to go to London to watch him give up? How come i've never seen other top managers give up even when they will doubtless have had important games around the corner?

 

Again, everyone gets we are at a disadvantage but it so great that we cant compete past the half (in this case the quarter) way stage? The answer to that is fairly obvious.

 

The last time he did it (at Reading) it made absolutely no difference to our final finishing position in the PL but helped us get all the way to a CL SF & 1 moment of madness from Riise away from the final...

 

That is a good trade-off.

[The 5th Benitel]

The last time he did it (at Reading) it made absolutely no difference to our final finishing position in the PL but helped us get all the way to a CL SF & 1 moment of madness from Riise away from the final...

 

That is a good trade-off.

 

At that point we were pretty much already out of the league (before xmas again if i remember rightly) and even then it's not acceptable. This time he basically gave up on the league in October and fucked off a load of his most loyal supporters. Box it how you want that's a poor trade off.

 

I know you think footy is about nothing more than money but results and support (which leads directly to finance) still do mean a great deal and he fucked up on both of those counts yesterday.

 

I also know there's more money in the CL but a big chunk of our match going fans want us to at least have a go at winning the league and yesterday he, without question, gace up. The trade off he was effectively making was possible CL money for a section of our loyal fans.

[goatboy59]

We were actually still in it before Reading, about 6 points from top. That triggered a run of 10 points from 9 games and the title challenge was over in January.

 

He'd spent two months in the summer pigheadedly trying to sign Heinze when someone must surely have advised him United would block it and the FA would back them not us, but too late. You could see Agger's injury coming a mile off (there was an r in the month) and it's Carragher/Hyypia two games a week till January.

 

Skrtel comes in and there's a decent run to May. Too late.

 

I honestly think Aquilani was the 'solution' because Rafa genuinely believed Alonso's importance was exagerrated and that Lucas was perfectly capable of filling in. As it turns out I hope Mascherano is dropped when Gerrard and Aquilani are 100%, but again the momentum is lost.

 

When we were top and challenging at the beginning of the year, out came the FACTS, the pitiful public wrangling for a new contract (in the middle of the season - a player would get crucified for that) and the disgraceful sidelining of Keane in order to oust Parry.

 

Now, for the 6th straight season, there's been a 'blip' period that has entirely ruined any good work that might follow. If anyone thinks it won't happen in a 7th, can I interest you in a foolproof Nigerian money-making scheme?

 

Detested as they were/are, Parry and Gillett were major opponents of the 5 year contract. Now the strongest arguments for Rafa are now "We can't afford to sack him" and "Who else is there?"

 

Do you honestly believe those two thoughts haven't crossed the mind of the manager, and haven't affected his performance ever since he got it?

[christhered]

Ferguson was at Utd for 7 season before he won the league with them.

 

May I ask what Rafa did today that makes it the worst performance? I'm interested to hear your opinion.

 

It was an accumulation of mistakes, his constant appraisal if Kuyt, the signings of Voronin and Kyriagos, it says it all that he continually picks Insua because he cant trust the £7 million pound so called left back that he cant play because he has no trust in him.

 

We cant keep on having blind faith in a manager who makes mistake after mistake. We done fantastically well last season, but it has to be said our home form was fucking dreadfull yet he continually played the same formation, the same substituions, the same tired old forumula.

 

The boss isnt half as smart as he thinks he is, havent felt this low since the dark days of Souness. I fear what Lyon are going to do to us, with the sort of team that Rafa has built and managed over the past 5 years.

[Carlos Durninio]

All this wacky stuff about wages and budgets is all part of the denial process. Some fans cling to the image they've created of these managers and players instead of facing the reality. We haven't become a bad team overnight, we still have a core of top quality players, so you have to be practical and accept that the manager just isn't working anymore.

 

If I thought for a minute that success was guaranteed if Rafa had more money to spend then I'd agree with some of these wildly simplistic views, but it isn't. His methods are fundamentally flawed in this country.

[Paul]

...the denial process. Some fans cling to the image they've created of these managers and players instead of facing the reality.

 

Agreed. To remain entirely uncritical when things are this bad can only be denial, in my view.

 

His methods are fundamentally flawed in this country.

 

This I can't agree with, though. That said, his continual errors may be sufficiently undermining to make the point a moot one.

[The 5th Benitel]

We've been beaten 8 times out of 16 (one being a league 1 side) by my reckoning. Only one of those 8 can realisitically have said to have had better finances available than Rafa over the last 5 years. Making excuses for him is definately just denying the facts.