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Just like to say I've met plenty of Polish people both here and in Poland and I find them decent hard working people, If they have elected a councilor and are engaged with the political process then great. Elected representatives instead of pressure groups what a novel idea !

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Ah the beauty of political debate.

 

Do you vote for your own interests? Do you vote for the good of the Country? If you opt for the latter, how do you know if what's good for one area is bad for another?

 

I'm a liberal chap (not voting like that necessarily), so surely we'd be better off discussing the pros and cons of the minor parties like UKIP/Green/Lid Dem rather than shouting down anyone whose opinion isn't what you agree with?

 

We've had status quo with the 'main' parties for so long it's hardly a surprise that a party, or parties, that offer something clear and different are going to attract votes is it? Government has been pretty fucking awful for decades, and now there is an apparent 'other choice'.

 

Having said that, it's going to be a coalition, right? So what's the best coalition? Labour/SNP, Labour/LibDem? Tory/UKIP or Tory/LibDem. How much influence can the smaller parties possibly have?

 

Them's your options, as far as I see it.

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...and just as an aside, I think the UKIP debate is always overshadowed by the racism angle. Tell me there are no racists in the Labour or Tory parties. 

 

Of course there are, but those parties don't define themselves by having a worldview that is based on limiting freedom of movement and opportunity based on a person's immutable characteristics - such as place of birth or nationality-  rather than their individual talent, work rate and attitude.

 

it is my opinion that the worldview outlined above has a lot in common with racism.      

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I am not a racist and I find it insulting the fact you are implying I am a racist.

 

I also find certain posts on this thread to be wide of the mark implying that I have somehow been responsible for causing the Polish workers to feel some sort of need to sit isolated on their own as I have alienated them through wearing Union Jack clothing and snarling at them. The fact is I only have a Union Jack on my mug at home and on top of that Polish people are the ones in my experience who are responsible for forming cliques in the work place. As these people are only here for a short while and as they come over to work with friends they as such feel no need to integrate with society or the work place as it suits their situation as they are not going to be in the country for too long. By also having people imply that I am victimising these poor soles I also find wide of the mark. From my experience these people generally couldn't give a shit about the country or the people who live here and are in fact only here as an opportunity arose for them to come to work which they took up. As a result of the fact they are only taking advantage of an opportunity to visit the country and they have no plans to stay here long term they don't feel the need to even like this country. Now if there was one Polish person who was married working for a company who was married then I wouldn't for a minute believe they would be anything other than decent and a joy to work with. The truth in my experience is they come over with their family friends for a short term for no other reason than an opportunity arose for them to travel to the UK. I find it quite laughable that I am being told that I am in the wrong and I am a nasty snarling Union Jack wearing racists by a load of people on a football forum who don't know a thing about me yet who while insulting me are accusing me of being guilty of what they are doing. Once more it is a democratic vote and yet these people who know nothing about me are telling me who I should be voting for at risk of being insulted by them.

 

To sum up I am not a racist, I don't go around snarling and insulting people and I don't go forcing people into cliques by my narrow mindedness unlike some people on this forum.

 

Would you find it reprehensible for a British person to travel to, say, Paris, Berlin, Dubai, Los Angeles, Sydney or Cape Town in order to pursue a short-term employment opportunity for financial gain?

 

Do you believe that the governments in those places ought to legislate against such economic short-termism?

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5C9214CC-1390-45C1-AD5E-ADAD32C33C80_zps

 

Man of the people, my arse! He's got mustard coloured trousers, possibly cords, on.

 

Is that Grayson Perry on the left?

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I'm a liberal chap (not voting like that necessarily), so surely we'd be better off discussing the pros and cons of the minor parties like UKIP/Green/Lid Dem rather than shouting down anyone whose opinion isn't what you agree with?

 

It's the thinly disguised racism I don't agree with, not the decision to vote UKIP. Anyone can vote for who the fuck they like.

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Of course there are, but those parties don't define themselves by having a worldview that is based on limiting freedom of movement and opportunity based on a person's immutable characteristics - such as place of birth or nationality-  rather than their individual talent, work rate and attitude.

 

it is my opinion that the worldview outlined above has a lot in common with racism.      

 

Well, for the sake of debate (and coming from a left-wing political bent, I should add)...

 

From what I gather from interviews and the UKIP manifesto, their actual stance is that they would limit the European freedom of movement (in employment terms obviously) with a view to open it up globally. Farage said in interview that the options are currently limited to Europe, but what if the best man for the job is from outside of Europe? I.E. currently we're obliged to take Europeans. I don't know if these are facts by the way.

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It's the thinly disguised racism I don't agree with, not the decision to vote UKIP. Anyone can vote for who the fuck they like.

 

The Polish thing yeah? Well that's his experience. It's going to have an influence on how a person votes, no? He might be an outrageous racist as far as I know, but there are better ways of debating the points made.

 

Your opinion may be the polar opposite, but does that mean you want as many Polish people in the UK as possible? There isn't a party that are saying they want more immigration from Europe, and that's because it would be unpopular.

 

Just playing devils advocate... trying to get the discussion back on track.

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Most aren't eligible to vote and if they are going to be allowed a vote then they should vote for the pro Polish party not the Green Party. It is also true that I can have a vote to represent me. People seem to imply that Polish are all lovely innocent people. The truth is from my experience is that very few of them are decent people the majority are a gang of arse holes who have more in common with eastern block football hooligans than the hard working immigrants looking to improve their lives impression people have of them. The truth is most are only here for a few years if that, they hate the country and generally seem to dislike the people who live here hence why they seem to enjoy so much forming cliques and not integrating into society.

You sure your not getting the poles mixed up with re-runs of auf wiedersehen pet?

 

Quit knocking immigrants, I'm one and so is my wife, me dad and me kid brother and sister. We're not all cunts, I am, but the others are sound.

 

We graft like fuck and the locals have great difficulty understanding us - especially when there's a group of us scousers together, we send money home to pay off debt and credit cards built up over the years. I have been having 'emergency' medical treatment from the hospitals over here for 5 years as they picked up I had chronic kidney disease when I was still on a visitors visa.

 

We hang around together as most Of the natives think footy is a game you play with yer hands, rock means a poodle haircut, and beer has to be served ice cold so you can't taste the fucking stuff.

We are being catered to by English and Irish sweet shops springing up, proper British chippies to cater to the mass of immigrants and travellers who have come here searching for a better life - some just for a while, others for longer.

 

Why do I have these rights but some other poor cunt from fucking Timbuktu doesn't? I thought it was hard graft that got

Me over here, but to see what these people who come via boats have done to get here, fuck id still be sat on my arse in a refugee camp waiting for a rice drop.

 

Having a go at the poorer Stratas of society who are having a go and trying to better themselves is a shit idea.

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The only problem I have with immigrant workers is not the fault of the immigrants themselves. It's British employers.

Mate of mine worked in a big distribution warehouse. Shifts. Two weeks days. One week nights. Got a decent shift allowance for the nights so they were all quite happy.

Management then decide to do away with the night shift allowance and pay the same rate as days. Everyone goes bonkers as says they can fuck of then we will not do nights. Cue a reduction in staff and recruitment of a load of Eastern European lads who are delighted to get £7.50 an hour to work permanent nights and because there is 6 to a house their bills are fuck all. Most of the cash is sent home.

 

Our lads with families and mortgages are left out of pocket. Firm gets work done for less and has a happy productive night shift.

Not blaming the Polish lads I would do the same if they offered me £50 an hour to pack boxes in Poland.

Employer has broken no law as they pay above minimum wage. It is just UK workforce getting shit on.

 

This would not make me even consider voting UKIP but Labour need to grow some fucking balls and protect the working man in this country. Stick your mansion tax up your arse Ed and do something radical.

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Why didn't your mates do the work?

Is that aimed at me?

If so prior to the change the lads were getting around 7-8 quid an hour for days 12 odd quid for nights. You had the option of not doing nights and staying on days if thats what you wanted. Almost everyone did the nights. Why would you agree to do the same hour per week for the same pay except be on nights? may suit some but fellas with families and you know a life it may not suit them.

The bosses knew this and were just looking to cut costs.

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Is that aimed at me?

If so prior to the change the lads were getting around 7-8 quid an hour for days 12 odd quid for nights. You had the option of not doing nights and staying on days if thats what you wanted. Almost everyone did the nights. Why would you agree to do the same hour per week for the same pay except be on nights? may suit some but fellas with families and you know a life it may not suit them.

The bosses knew this and were just looking to cut costs.

 

Often, the best businesses are transparent with clear communication between employer and employee. 

The issue here seems that by simply removing the additional pay without (from what appears) clear communication of why this is happening and then employing folk who have no problem with the standard pay has created a bitter relationship. It's just bad management and has nothing to do with immigrant workers. 

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Guest Numero Veinticinco

It has something to do with it, just not everything. If they weren't there to pick up the slack, undercutting the price if labour, there'd be no choice but to pay. It's business owners trying to make more money by exploiting the immigrant workers. The entire thing sucks.

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Waiting for Walk On to say that grafting for a better your life is an easy argument.

 

Damn right!

 

No, but it raises another good point. Neither UKIP or anyone else is saying that we need to send people back. Nor are they arguing with asylum, which of course is the right thing to do. AF's experience is one which wouldn't be blocked, as far as I can tell anyway. He works hard I'm sure, he's got a job here. The point being that nobody is saying close the border to immigration, just get better control of it. 

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