Will we finish in the top 4?

[Catch22]

In laymans terms what does that post mean Catch?

 

 

 

We are very much on our own in 4th on turnover generated.

(The problem is that Anfield generates about 40% of Arse or OT- we really need a ground that generates more cash!)

 

We are also clearly in 4th on annual footballing budget although we do close the gap to Arse somewhat compared to turnover (they are being conservative whilst still exposed to all those Highbury flats)

 

If Citeh go completely mad this summer they may push us into 5th but at the moment it is unlikely.

[INTORRESTING]

The debts are a disgrace, our situation is a disgrace but to be honest we could have won the league last year and we can do so again. Wages, Transfers etc did not stop us winning the title, 2 home draws did.

 

We only need a couple more players to push on and if Gerrard and Torres play all season i think we can win the title without making any transfers in or out.

 

The situation is awful but we shouldn't hide behind it and must try and keep it separate from the playing side of things.

 

City will still have average players in various positions and not many, if any players better than our players. There is no way they will push us into 5th.

 

United will always be up there. If Wenger adds steel they will fancy the title and chelsea getting a new boss is quite a risk. We should be thinking of the title next year regardless of who anyone else buys.

 

We are in a financial mess because of being inept. We have spent a fortune as a club and have spent plenty on transfers but not in the way we should have

[Dracco]

I think even if we did not buy anyone we would finish in the Top 3 next season...if we wouldn´t sell anyone.

[Hermes]

In laymans terms what does that post mean Catch?

 

It means he can't find the figures to back up his statement - "they have had us 4th in turnover & 4th in spending in England every year Rafa has been here"-

but wants me or somebody else to give a student £60 to pay for a futile search for them.

[hamstrung]

Catch doesn't lie about numbers. Its what he does.

[Hermes]

Catch doesn't lie about numbers. Its what he does.

 

Then he'll produce the evidence, won't he?

[SpeedyG]

Catch doesn't lie about numbers. Its what he does.

 

But all catch has said is that he doesn't agree that Hermes' #s are relevant because they are gross spend and don't include wages. As usual both parties are spinning it to suit their point.

[hamstrung]

Then he'll produce the evidence, won't he?

 

I don't doubt he has a copy. Maybe he'll offer to photocopy it for you.

[Hermes]

But all catch has said is that he doesn't agree that Hermes' #s are relevant because they are gross spend and don't include wages. As usual both parties are spinning it to suit their point.

 

No, what he said was "they have had us 4th in turnover & 4th in spending in England every year Rafa has been here".

 

He hasn't produced the evidence to back it up.

[Stu Monty]

People who think selling £10m worth of something then using that to make £30m worth of investment is anything more than having £20m to spend should be gassed.

 

Come the revolution, they will be.

[Hermes]

I don't doubt he has a copy. Maybe he'll offer to photocopy it for you.

 

He can produce the evidence any way he likes. I'll be waiting.

[Catch22]

No, what he said was "they have had us 4th in turnover & 4th in spending in England every year Rafa has been here".

 

He hasn't produced the evidence to back it up.

 

 

 

I just have!

 

I gave you the original on the web, the place you can buy a full print version of it & the BBC summay of it:

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Premier League 'defies downturn'

 

 

And most pertinently

 

TOP PREMIER LEAGUE WAGE BILLS 2007/08

Chelsea - £172.1m (£132.9m)

Manchester Utd - £121.1m (£92.3m)

Arsenal - £101.3m (£89.7m)

Liverpool - £90.4m (£77.6m)

Newcastle Utd - £74.6m (£56.7m)

(2006/07 wages in brackets)

 

Source: Deloitte

[INTORRESTING]

from ttnbd on Rawk - sorry if already posted. It would be good to see what the financial bods on here think of the below

 

 

Well it's that time of year again and time to look at the financial accounts of LFC.

 

I've had alot of people either call me an enemy sympathiser or an idiot for not wanting to follow the predjudicial (alot indirectly but a sizeable minority directly) views of a number of the clubs fans. There's many who use certain figures given in the media, and on some independent websites as being the oracle of all things financial. Time and again I have been ridiculed for wanting to wait to see the facts as invariably they differ greatly to the hyperbole of the various messageboards.

 

Well here's the facts, in a year where facts are being used in regularity, if in many cases stretched.

 

I'll break the key areas down for each of the group companies.

 

Liverpool FC & Athletic Grounds Limited

 

Key Figures

 

2008 2007 % Change

Turnover 159,052 133,910 19%

Cost of Sales 16,523 16,417 0.6%

Admin Expenses 145,240 143,160 1.5%

Profit/(Loss) Before Tax 10,199 (21,655) n/a

Net Debt 86,017 43,868 96%

Cashflow from Operating Activites 22,863 39,996 (43)%

Gross Transfer Expenditure 69,966 69,972 0%

 

Turnover

 

This is broken down as thus

 

2008 2007 % Change

Media 68,358 52,161 31%

Matchday 39,215 38,442 2%

Commercial 49,849 41,794 19%

Museum & OSC 1,630 1,513 7.7%

 

Healthy increases in media was expected with the advent of the current premier league tv deal. However a small amount of the increase is also due to the steep fall in sterling in the latter part of the season. While there was a compensating item for failing to reach the european cup final.

 

Matchday turnover increased as a result of the standard increase in ticket prices. With Anfield operating at near enough full capacity the scope for increases here are limited.

 

Commercial revenue increased as a result of both merchandise sales increasing aswell as an increase in the value of the club's sponsorship deal with Carlsberg. The carlsberg deal accounted for approx £2.5m of this increase.

 

Admin Expenses

 

 

2008 2007 % Change

Staff Costs 89,729 77,589 16%

Amortisation of Players Registrations 32,497 31,121 4.4%

Impairment on Players Registrations - 2,005 (100%)

Other Operating Charges 20,406 16,991 20%

 

Net Debt

 

2008 2007 % Change

Bank Debt 21,546 43,868 (51)%

Inter-Company Loans 79,911 - N/A

Cash at bank and in hand 16,284 441

Total Net Debt 86,017 43,868 96%

 

The net debt to external parties (ie banks) has decreased, however this is more than surpassed by loans from the parent companies of LFC. The bank debt carries an interest charge of Libor + 3.5%. The intercompany loans were provided from the Caymen Islands company.

 

Since the year end and additional £21.3m was received from Kop Football Limted (ultimately from Kop Football (Caymans)) for working capital requirements.

 

Contingent Assets/Liabilities

 

If certain conditions are met the club has potential income of £11.6m (of which £2.6m has since been realised) and potential expenditure of £19.8m (of which £1.6m has since been realised) on transfer fees.

 

Transfer Expenditure

 

The one area that causes the biggest debate. Every year we have fans complaining about the amount of money spent on players and every year they get it wrong, massively. These are the true figures for the last 3 financial years.

 

(figures in £000s)

Financial Year Ending 2008 2007 2006

Purchases 69,966 69,972 41,753

Sales 29,740 25,946 16,838

Net Transfer Activity 40,226 44,026 24,915

 

These values include relevant levies to the premier league, VAT and agents fees. Signing on fees go straight to the Profit & Loss at time of payment.

 

Since the year end Albert Riera, Peter Gulasci and Victor Palsson were bought by the club for total transfer fees of £7m (I assume this includes VAT and agents fees, but am not certain)

 

Since the year end the club sold Robbie Keane and Steve Finnan for a total guaranteed income of £12.8m. However this amount will increase significantly should certain conditions be met.

 

The Immediate Future

 

The immediate future is now very difficult to predict, will we be sold again or won't we. Will the stadium go ahead or not, will refinancing be granted or not? So many questions so little answers. There is only a limited area of certainty.

 

1) The latest Premier League tv deal. This will continue for the next 4 years, but there is the uncertainty of Setanta.

 

2) The increased sponsorship revenue from Carlsberg continues until the end of next season, while other improved sponsorship/advertising deals have been agreed.

 

3) The supporter pet hate, ticket prices, this will go the other way for the coming season, for the season just gone there will likely be a net fall due to the number of games played at home in the season.

 

4) The club has the full benefit of owning the company that runs the website and LFC TV. This will increase turnover by approx £4m per year and profits from it will double from previous levels.

 

Benchmarking against our rivals

 

With this I aim to show how the top 4 compare in the revenue, core costs (player amortisation and wages) and transfer expenditure stakes.

 

The figures relate to the season 2006/07 and are taken from the published accounts of all 4 clubs. There is a slight difference in accounting reference dates but I believe these are insignificant. The figures also relate to footballing activity only (arsenal have a property development going on at present, chelsea have the hotel etc)

 

(in £000s unless stated)

Liverpool Manchester United Chelsea Arsenal

Turnover 159,052 256,239 199,339 207,723

Media 68,358 90,723 Not Avail 68,360

Matchday 39,215 101,468 Not Avail 94,580

Commercial 49,849 64,048 Not Avail 44,311

Amortisation of Player Registrations 32,497 35,481 57,281 21,757

Staff Wages 89,729 121,080 171,620 101,302

Staff Wages as % of Turnover 56% 47% 86% 49%

Gross Transfer Expenditure 69,966 14,338 80,727 27,490

Net Transfer Expenditure 40,226 (13,254) 48,106 (13,707)

 

 

It must be noted that the following events occurred after the balance sheet dates.

 

Manchester United bought players for fees totalling £34.4m, with £1.6m recouped from sales. Contingent Liabilities on transfers stand at £14.8m

 

The figures for Chelsea only relate to football activites, hotel revenues are excluded to make the figures more comparable. The Staff Wages includes termination costs of £23.1m

 

Chelsea sold players for a profit of £8.5m since the balance sheet date. Contingent Liabilities on transfers stand at £3.7m

 

The figures for Arsenal are for footballing activities only. Since the year end Arsenal received £1.5m net on transfer fees. Contingent Asset/Liabilities on transfers stand at £6.3m/£12.3m respectively

 

 

LFC.tv Limited

 

This is appears to be a success story at present. Nothing much to say on it.

 

Turnover £7.9m (from 2008/09 onwards all of this will be a wholey owned subsidiary of LFC as opposed to being a joint venture)

Profit Before Tax £2.9m

 

Turnover is split as follows

 

Website £4.7m

Television £3.2m (this is an increase from £0.5m the year before).

 

This suggests that the deal with setanta could be worth £2.5m per annum. If this is true then I would say it's a great deal.

 

 

Kop Football (Holdings) Limited

 

Loss Before Tax £40.9m

 

Net Debt £299.5m.

 

Gross debt £320m of which £261m owed to banks, £58.2m owed to parent companies and £7.5m of financing costs capitalised to the balance sheet.

 

Cash balances £20.6m

 

Interest charged £36.5m

 

Interest paid £35.2m

 

Net debt increased by £55m in the year. This includes monies received from parent companies (charged at 10% per annum, interest not yet paid).

 

 

Expenses Claimed

 

2008 - reimbursable third party consulting, travel and other expenses with Hicks and affiliated companies £192,000

 

2008 - reimbursable third party consulting, legal, travel and other expenses with Hicks and affiliated companies £129,000

 

 

AUDIT REPORT

 

The major issue arrising from the accounts this time, however, relates to the KPMG report on Going Concern. Due to the facilities being due for repayment on 24 July 2009 and with no refinancing agreed/announced at the time of sign off by KPMG they have raised an emphasis of matter on the going concern status of the holding companies and club. The club/owners are in discussions to refinance the facilities and looking for possible equity finance. I don't think there is too much to say on this as I am sure everyone will have their views on this, and the results.

 

I will say that as a standalone company LFC should have no problems. I'd imagine they would get refinancing for club debt, however the millstone of the purchase debt is having an effect. This may explain some of the rumours going round recently about the owners being told to pay down the debt over the next couple of years.

 

There is a comment in the report about revised stadium plans going to the council in Q2 2009, however the refinancing issue needs to be settled before this can really be taken forward.

 

Future prospects are both bleak and positive. Positively the club is back in the black and has increasing revenues again, especially in the commercial area (the one area at present that the club can really increase revenues by it's own actions). The tv deal will provide a stable platform for the next 4 years and LFC.tv is improving year on year.

 

Bleakly the club needs to have the refinancing/takeover saga sorted quickly. It always has, however with the new contracts, both staff and commercial, there must be a large amount of optimism that the refinancing will occur. However it needs to be for longer than a year to ensure short to medium term stability.

[Hermes]

I just have!

 

I gave you the original on the web, the place you can buy a full print version of it & the BBC summay of it:

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Premier League 'defies downturn'

 

 

And most pertinently

 

TOP PREMIER LEAGUE WAGE BILLS 2007/08

Chelsea - £172.1m (£132.9m)

Manchester Utd - £121.1m (£92.3m)

Arsenal - £101.3m (£89.7m)

Liverpool - £90.4m (£77.6m)

Newcastle Utd - £74.6m (£56.7m)

(2006/07 wages in brackets)

 

Source: Deloitte

 

And how does that back up your statement? Do you want me to type it again? How big does the font have to be before you can comprehend what you yourself wrote?

[Catch22]

That analysis double-counts the signing on fees (another name for wages) due to new players, i think.

[Catch22]

And how does that back up your statement? Do you want me to type it again? How big does the font have to be before you can comprehend what you yourself wrote?

 

 

 

Deloitte are a major accountacy firm who do this each & every day & whose business model depends on a reputation for honesty & getting it right.

They are collating figures which all companies have to issue as a legal requirement & for which directors go to jail if they are wrong.

 

Each of the individual numbers can be checked

 

For instance Arsenal reported their accounts in Sep '08

Here is the Telegraph analysis of them

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/arsenal/2988094/Arsenal-wage-bill-goes-past-100m---Football.html

 

It includes this line:

"These increases have helped fund an increase in the cost of wages from £89.7 million last year to £101.3 million"

 

That exactly matchs the BBC/Deloitte figure & can be found at Companies House if you care to look.

[aws]

what we've got here is failure to communicate

[SpeedyG]

what we've got here is failure to communicate

 

Failure leaves open the possibility of it being an accident. This is a willful refusal.

[RedBrian84]

Of course we will. We'll finish in the top two, never mind the top four. Wenger's not the same manager he used to be and Arsenal are all style and no substance. If Van Persie goes they can kiss goodbye to that "top four since 1996" record they have.

 

As for Chelsea, well they are still incredibly strong but also ageing. And the young players that they do have are fucking tripe- like Mikel for example. And Malouda. Yes, Ancellotti has gone there with the big fucking fanfare, but so did Scolari....

 

United will be our rival for the next season, and the seasons beyond that I'm sure of it. Our squad this season could have-and many would argue should have- won the league. So it isn't really a question of needing a few extra players (although obviously that's always sensible- I'd plump for a new right back, and a versatile, pacey winger), it's a question of consistency, and always having your best players injury-free. If United can win the Premiership with Carrick, Park Ji Sung and John O' Fucking Shea, then we can win it as well.

 

Top two defintely for me. In fact, fuck it- we're going to ride out these financial troubles and win the fucking thing.

[Hermes]

Deloitte are a major accountacy firm

 

I know who they are, where are their figures that back-up your statement:

 

"they have had us 4th in turnover & 4th in spending in England every year Rafa has been here"-

 

If you haven't got them (and I know you haven't, because they don't exist), just say so and stop peddling the Rafa lack of money myth.

[Catch22]

I know who they are, where are their figures that back-up your statement:

 

"they have had us 4th in turnover & 4th in spending in England every year Rafa has been here"-

 

If you haven't got them (and I know you haven't, because they don't exist), just say so and stop peddling the Rafa lack of money myth.

 

 

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Premier League 'defies downturn'

that does it for years '06/07 & '07/08

 

BBC NEWS | Business | 'Record' Premier League wage bill

that does it for years '05/06 & '06/07 again

 

BBC NEWS | Business | First fall in Premiership wages

is the report for '04/05

 

In each year we had the 4th highest turnover & the 4th highest wage bill.

 

Given that wages are for the life of a contract, that more than ensures the 4th highest budget reckoning

[MLB]

I'm confident that we can win the league next season with one or two quality signings.

[Brownie]

I'm confident that we can win the league next season with one or two quality signings.

 

Me too.

[SpeedyG]

BBC NEWS | Business | Premier League 'defies downturn'

that does it for years '06/07 & '07/08

 

BBC NEWS | Business | 'Record' Premier League wage bill

that does it for years '05/06 & '06/07 again

 

BBC NEWS | Business | First fall in Premiership wages

is the report for '04/05

 

In each year we had the 4th highest turnover & the 4th highest wage bill.

 

Given that wages are for the life of a contract, that more than ensures the 4th highest budget reckoning

 

Just so you know, that first report a) has a different number for wages than the accounts do and b) has a different # for the debt than we know to be the case.

[Catch22]

Just so you know, that first report a) has a different number for wages than the accounts do and b) has a different # for the debt than we know to be the case.

 

 

Does it? Can you point that out specificaly please as i missed it.

 

Best do it on PM please as may be a little dry for a football forum!

 

Thanks