A thread about a man named Xabi

[aws]

In the long-term I think that Arsenal's overall business model is far sounder than any of the other "Big Four" clubs. If there's one club which won't be bust in 10 years' time it's arsenal.

 

I'm pretty sure they're not going to buy Alonso though.

[Best Believe It]

Time for the Net Cunting Spend tag?

[Catch22]

Aren't Arsenal's wages always going to be more than ours though on account of them being based in London?

 

Even staff in their ticket office and the tea ladies must get paid more than at LFC so shouldn't that be factored in?

 

Their average ticket prices dwarf ours too remember.

 

Yes, that's a good point.

 

To be 100% accurate you would have to take that into account.

 

On the amounts we are talking about though, it isn't enough to make a difference

 

(also we don't know fees to that detail either which could go either way)

[Dan Vito Corleone]

Time for the Net Cunting Spend tag?

 

As the person who started that trend, it will be my pleasure!

[INTORRESTING]

ladyboy blew the netspend chat away

[Catch22]

ladyboy blew the netspend chat away

 

we'r still behind them even with that...

 

£30m pa was the latest wage gap.

[ToxtethTerror]

That was the lowest gap. It is normally about £15m.

 

The key is that wages are reported annually but you are obliged to pay them for the life of a contract (as we have seen with GH's "unflushable turds").

Transfers are reported as a lump sum but are in fact usually paid annually over a set life.

 

If a club buys somebody for £25m it is reported as £25m on your "net spend" numbers.

(The actual cash-flows are £5m per year say for 5 years. The amount that Pompey still owed us for Crouch is a good example of this).

 

Now, if a club gives a player a £5m a year deal for 5 years.

(The actual cash-flows are identical & sum to the same £25m)

That is reported on the wage difference figure as £5m/season.

 

So here a £25m net spend difference is identical in cash-flow terms for the club as a £5m/year salary.

Yet they use numbers that are multiples of eachother.

 

The key to compare them is either to put fees on an annual basis (So £16m for Johnson is £4m per year for 4 years) OR put calculate the upfront contract value (so If you pay somebody £7m for 5 years it is a £35m charge)

 

When you do this, Arse are comfortably ahead & that is not disputed by anybody who is involved in the football finance or gambling industries.

 

(In terms of the selling club debate i think aws summed it up pefectly. They sell to reinvest that cash in paying their squad so much in the hope that a certain percentage makes it.

That business model is slightly different to ours.

I call a selling club 1 that does it to survive.

That is clearly not the case with Arsenal but it is a just a matter of defintion.)

 

The issue of whether us or Arse spend more is not a matter of defintion by the way.

They do.

 

With all due respect I think you are factoring it incorrectly e.g. paying wages over 5 years is balanced out by having lump sums paid from other clubs each year from players you have sold.

 

As I said if you want to do the NET spend thing then you must factor in the following.

 

1. Wage costs in London

2. Wages in respect of having a huge stadium.

3. Turnover

4. NET Transfer differences minus NET Wages differences between the club.

 

Look at specifically number 4 and then come back and tell me Arsenal pay our more on players than us. Over the past 10 years Wenger has a £5m NET transfer spend which is £15m NET less than us. We certainly don't have such differences in wages, in fact our wages are probably only been higher these past few season - they certainly weren't when Wenger first joined there.

 

Listen to aws - he knows.

[JohnnyH]

Hi. Sorry to bother you. I was just looking for some directions. Has anyone seen a Xabi Alonso thread around here? Apparantly it's somehere around here. Thanks.

[INTORRESTING]

What about the fact that people come to us and take pay cuts, i know not everyone does. Does the fact we have less of a wage bill necesarily mean we are disadvantaged? Our problem is the transfer fee usually isnt it, not the wages? I am sure we could pay more wages if required.

 

Who has not joined us because of the wages? If we weren't who we were we would have been dead a long time ago re attracting players as we would have had to pay exorbitant sums, i also think teams like spurs have got through it as they have attracted players as they are in London.

 

I know 'arry was criticised for his wage bill at hammers and that somehow his excellent achievement should not be given as much credit as it was but how else were they supposed to attract even average players to go there?

 

I dont really buy the whole wage thing but it is a good discussion.

[robbiefowler9]

What about the fact that people come to us and take pay cuts, i know not everyone does. Does the fact we have less of a wage bill necesarily mean we are disadvantaged? Our problem is the transfer fee usually isnt it, not the wages? I am sure we could pay more wages if required.

 

Who has not joined us because of the wages? If we weren't who we were we would have been dead a long time ago re attracting players as we would have had to pay exorbitant sums, i also think teams like spurs have got through it as they have attracted players as they are in London.

 

I know 'arry was criticised for his wage bill at hammers and that somehow his excellent achievement should not be given as much credit as it was but how else were they supposed to attract even average players to go there?

 

I dont really buy the whole wage thing but it is a good discussion.

 

I don't think it's a case of people turning us down cos we won't meet they're wage demands. I think it's more likely that there are a lot of players out there who are automatically ruled out as targets as we as a club feel they would command too high a wage to be considered a plausible target and thus we don't bother going after them at all.

[Catch22]

With all due respect I think you are factoring it incorrectly e.g. paying wages over 5 years is balanced out by having lump sums paid from other clubs each year from players you have sold.

 

As I said if you want to do the NET spend thing then you must factor in the following.

 

1. Wage costs in London

2. Wages in respect of having a huge stadium.

3. Turnover

4. NET Transfer differences minus NET Wages differences between the club.

 

Look at specifically number 4 and then come back and tell me Arsenal pay our more on players than us. Over the past 10 years Wenger has a £5m NET transfer spend which is £15m NET less than us. We certainly don't have such differences in wages, in fact our wages are probably only been higher these past few season - they certainly weren't when Wenger first joined there.

 

Listen to aws - he knows.

 

There will be cashflows from previus transfer but they are irrelevant to the case.

 

We can make a reasonable guess at net transfer differnces (it's about £85m).

If both clubs do nothing then the paymentes for that will occur in/out for the next 5 years.

That needs to be compared against the wage gap pushed forward for the life o the contracts- That is abit more complicated as we don't know thos exactly but we can get pretty close by using old data as well.

 

In terms of your other points:

1. Wage costs in London

Yes this makes a difference but it is very small compred to the gaps we are talking about.

 

2. Wages in respect of having a huge stadium.

That is perfectly correct in terms of how viable a club is.

But it is irrelevant for comparing "value on the pitch for spend"

We have a biggr ground than Wycombe & spend more than them

 

3. Turnover

This is exactly the same pint as 2.

 

4. NET Transfer differences minus NET Wages differences between the club

Yes that is exactly right.

A football budget is wages+fees

The differnce in 2 club's budgets can equally be written as you have done.

 

Arse have a higher footballing budget than us as their higher wages more than compensate for the extra amount we spend in the market.

 

(When Arse won the double in '98 they alreay had the 2nd highest wages btw, & as the Mancs were the highest, they have been ahead of us for a long while)

[Bogman]

Hi. Sorry to bother you. I was just looking for some directions. Has anyone seen a Xabi Alonso thread around here? Apparantly it's somehere around here. Thanks.

 

 

Down to the lights, chuck a left, straight on for 1000 yards (stare), then up the dirt track until you reach the hills.

 

They have eyes, you know. :eek:

[Catch22]

Hi. Sorry to bother you. I was just looking for some directions. Has anyone seen a Xabi Alonso thread around here? Apparantly it's somehere around here. Thanks.

 

It's like Ronnie Corbett doing his shaggy dog story....

 

Anyway it needs it to help claim the longest thread title from the transfer speculation one!

[INTORRESTING]

I don't think it's a case of people turning us down cos we won't meet they're wage demands. I think it's more likely that there are a lot of players out there who are automatically ruled out as targets as we as a club feel they would command too high a wage to be considered a plausible target and thus we don't bother going after them at all.

 

Thats a good point but i suppose we will never know. I wonder if anyone Rafa would want would be an eto'o or a zlatan anyway?

[Lupin]

Thats a good point but i suppose we will never know. I wonder if anyone Rafa would want would be an eto'o or a zlatan anyway?

 

If he wanted a Zlatan I would insist he resigned and one of Andy Gray's turds got the job.

[robbiefowler9]

Thats a good point but i suppose we will never know. I wonder if anyone Rafa would want would be an eto'o or a zlatan anyway?

 

He doesn't seem to put up with that sorta shite. Look at Agger, when he was doing his wage shite in the media, he seemed to just sort it out first go. As for not goin for Zlatan, I think that has more to do with him being shite...

[INTORRESTING]

He doesn't seem to put up with that sorta shite. Look at Agger, when he was doing his wage shite in the media, he seemed to just sort it out first go. As for not goin for Zlatan, I think that has more to do with him being shite...

 

Agreed i just used those two players instead of putting the word cunts.

 

Anyway, whats the time in singapore, xabi shaved yet?

[robbiefowler9]

Agreed i just used those two players instead of putting the word cunts.

 

Anyway, whats the time in singapore, xabi shaved yet?

 

Am I the only one who loves Xabi's facial hair?

[INTORRESTING]

Am I the only one who loves Xabi's facial hair?

 

just nidging the thread back on track as i am the world's worst at veering off at a tangent. Does anyone else veer off at a tangent?

[G Richards]

If the Doss if off to Napoli they have Hamsik and Lavezzi who we might possibly be interested in.

 

I think if Xabi goes there is an opportunity for the team to crank it up a notch in terms of attacking bias, thus cementing the new found attacking prowess of latter stages of last season.

 

We must keep Mascher, but I'm not overly bothered if we can't find like for like for Xabi. As Real Madrid keep saying, such a player is unique. We'd be better off making the whole thing a bit more attacking and wiping the floor with everyone next season. If most of those draws turn to wins we're in business.

[INTORRESTING]

If the Doss if off to Napoli they have Hamsik and Lavezzi who we might possibly be interested in.

 

I think if Xabi goes there is an opportunity for the team to crank it up a notch in terms of attacking bias, thus cementing the new found attacking prowess of latter stages of last season.

 

We must keep Mascher, but I'm not overly bothered if we can't find like for like for Xabi. As Real Madrid keep saying, such a player is unique. We'd be better off making the whole thing a bit more attacking and wiping the floor with everyone next season. If most of those draws turn to wins we're in business.

 

I think in our chess games the personnel is not as important but i agree with you in that why not just have Masch with a more attacking partner and play like we did from Madrid home onwards. There is no reason why we cannot wipe out most of the prem home and away playing like that and we did so without Gerrard and Torres starting or even playing in quite a lot of games. We simply must start the season with that impetus, there are no excuses this time.

 

The games against the other big clubs are a gamble but a mixture of tactics and gerrard and torres should see us through again.

 

I hope Rafa has learnt that regardless of the personnell we have to play with that tempo and press high up the pitch. I also hope he can keep the players happy he has earmarked for the aimar role which became the yossi role last year but he has with yossi so i have hope!

[WaltonRed]

If the Doss if off to Napoli they have Hamsik and Lavezzi who we might possibly be interested in.

 

I think if Xabi goes there is an opportunity for the team to crank it up a notch in terms of attacking bias, thus cementing the new found attacking prowess of latter stages of last season.

 

We must keep Mascher, but I'm not overly bothered if we can't find like for like for Xabi. As Real Madrid keep saying, such a player is unique. We'd be better off making the whole thing a bit more attacking and wiping the floor with everyone next season. If most of those draws turn to wins we're in business.

 

This man knows...listen to him people.

[Troubadour]

If the Doss if off to Napoli they have Hamsik and Lavezzi who we might possibly be interested in.

 

I think if Xabi goes there is an opportunity for the team to crank it up a notch in terms of attacking bias, thus cementing the new found attacking prowess of latter stages of last season.

 

We must keep Mascher, but I'm not overly bothered if we can't find like for like for Xabi. As Real Madrid keep saying, such a player is unique. We'd be better off making the whole thing a bit more attacking and wiping the floor with everyone next season. If most of those draws turn to wins we're in business.

 

Also, some of the 1-0 wins might turn into draws, and the occasional draw might turn into a defeat.

 

Not having a go, but it's not as simple as just chucking in a more attacking player. I remember under Houllier when we were losing and he'd have four strikers on the pitch - one of them being Titi Camara - and I've never seen a team look less like scoring.

[Original202]

Also, some of the 1-0 wins might turn into draws, and the occasional draw might turn into a defeat.

 

Not having a go, but it's not as simple as just chucking in a more attacking player. I remember under Houllier when we were losing and he'd have four strikers on the pitch - one of them being Titi Camara - and I've never seen a team look less like scoring.

 

Or the 1-0s could turn into 2-0s or 3-1s...

 

I think being a bit bolder would win us more points than it'd cost us overall.

[Guest Kenny]

If the Doss if off to Napoli they have Hamsik and Lavezzi who we might possibly be interested in.

 

I think if Xabi goes there is an opportunity for the team to crank it up a notch in terms of attacking bias, thus cementing the new found attacking prowess of latter stages of last season.

 

We must keep Mascher, but I'm not overly bothered if we can't find like for like for Xabi. As Real Madrid keep saying, such a player is unique. We'd be better off making the whole thing a bit more attacking and wiping the floor with everyone next season. If most of those draws turn to wins we're in business.

 

Ding dong, we have a winner.