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You're the one that appears slow here, lots of shouting with no ideas to back it up. It's all emotional nonsense from you.

 

Keane wasn't good enough as a player, most people know that. He was as useful as Ngog is. The money thing about Keane is people understanding when you should cut your losses in an effort to reduce further loss, in that respect it was a good move to sell in the Jan window rather than the Summer.

 

Keane was a much much better player than N'Gog.

 

He scored 7 goals in 28 games for us. Granted he was hardly brilliant, and in some games quite frankly was shite, but he gave us a some very good performances, and chipped in with a decent amount of goals.

 

We have nobody in the squad able to replace him. And to sell him on the last day of the transfer window, and bring in no replacement, is why the vast majority of fans are angry with Rafa. And it is a fair criticism aswell.

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Keane was a much much better player than N'Gog.

 

He scored 7 goals in 28 games for us. Granted he was hardly brilliant, and in some games quite frankly was shite, but he gave us a some very good performances, and chipped in with a decent amount of goals.

 

We have nobody in the squad able to replace him. And to sell him on the last day of the transfer window, and bring in no replacement, is why the vast majority of fans are angry with Rafa. And it is a fair criticism aswell.

 

 

Don't bother. I give up now.

 

It's like banging your head against a fucking wall.

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get a fucking grip you retard.

 

You're the one appearing hysterical with nothing to back up what you're saying. I don't need to call you names to make myself feel correct though.

 

As a member of the squad Keane wasn't good enough. Simple as that, Ngog was used as an example of his usefulness to the team. Keane wasn't scoring, neither does Ngog. I know that Keane is a better player than Ngog but we have Ngog to replace keane i.e another striker that doesn't score goals.

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Don't bother. I give up now.

 

It's like banging your head against a fucking wall.

 

Well you come across as a bit of a head banger actually...

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Keane was a much much better player than N'Gog.

 

He scored 7 goals in 28 games for us. Granted he was hardly brilliant, and in some games quite frankly was shite, but he gave us a some very good performances, and chipped in with a decent amount of goals.

 

We have nobody in the squad able to replace him. And to sell him on the last day of the transfer window, and bring in no replacement, is why the vast majority of fans are angry with Rafa. And it is a fair criticism aswell.

 

I agree with what you're saying, I honestly don't think Rafa chose not to replace Keane though.

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ZZZZzzzzzzzz.......

 

 

Ok, I concede. It was a fucking brilliant piece of business. shrewd as fuck. Weakening the team in mid-season, so we could rely on the striker power of Babel and Ngog was a master stroke. It's even more brillaint cos we got a bit of our money back on it as well.

 

You win.

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We aren't a selling club so what Tom says is correct - we weakened the team mid season. People on here go on about us being a top club and not a selling club like Arsenal and then go on about selling Keane "while we could"... it's a nonsene really isn't it?

 

Onthe flip side Tom, who do you think is out there that could get us from being a top team in Europe and 2nd best team in the land, to being a top team in Europe and the best team in the land - and pretty quickly?

 

I hate the normal football Rafa's teams play, he is a cautious defensive manager by nature unless its in a one off must win game. And his attacking signings rank alongside some of the worse ever seen at Liverpool bar Torres... BUT who will do better?

 

The easiest way out of this is to change the scouts and have someone help Rafa with transfers.. and give him a remit to play attacking football - the same as he would get at Madrid.

 

That is far easier than changing the manager - if he says no then he goes... but I am sure Rafa would take the challenge.

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ZZZZzzzzzzzz.......

 

 

Ok, I concede. It was a fucking brilliant piece of business. shrewd as fuck. Weakening the team in mid-season, so we could rely on the striker power of Babel and Ngog was a master stroke. It's even more brillaint cos we got a bit of our money back on it as well.

 

You win.

 

Well, he did put forward a very convincing argument.

 

That bit about N'Gog being as good as Keane was particularly good.

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ZZZZzzzzzzzz.......

 

 

Ok, I concede. It was a fucking brilliant piece of business. shrewd as fuck. Weakening the team in mid-season, so we could rely on the striker power of Babel and Ngog was a master stroke. It's even more brillaint cos we got a bit of our money back on it as well.

 

You win.

 

If you do have some inside information on the whole Keane situation I'm sure lots of people here would love to hear it.

 

I'd think differently if selling Keane and not buying a replacement was a decision Rafa was comfortable with.

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there's sound logic there mate, deffo. But would it really be starting all over again? I don't think it would. the squad is in far better shape than it was when rafa took over from Houllier.

 

It's not a rebuilding process by any stretch. It's just addressing the issues that have been there for nearly three years and then pushing on.

 

If we brought in someone with league experience like Moyes, Strachan or O'Neil who'd be so pleased to get the job that they wouldn't want to throw their weight about then we might get by with a bit of tweaking to the squad. If we're so desperate to win the league then an appointment of that type makes sense in the short-term. But they'd have to hit the ground running because otherwise they'd have so much baggage that they'd be lucky to get two years.

 

More likely we'd bring in a "big name" from Europe who'd feel the need to shape the squad in his own image and we'd see an influx of german/dutch/italian (delete as applicable) players and the cycle begins again.

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Well, he did put forward a very convincing argument.

 

That bit about N'Gog being as good as Keane was particularly good.

 

I didn't say Ngog was as good as Keane, I said Keane was as useful as Ngog. Mainly for effect, a slight exaggeration possibly...Keane is obviously a much better player but for us his contribution was pathetic.

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Keane was a much much better player than N'Gog.

 

He scored 7 goals in 28 games for us. Granted he was hardly brilliant, and in some games quite frankly was shite, but he gave us a some very good performances, and chipped in with a decent amount of goals.

 

We have nobody in the squad able to replace him. And to sell him on the last day of the transfer window, and bring in no replacement, is why the vast majority of fans are angry with Rafa. And it is a fair criticism aswell.

 

 

People should be angry with Rafa as he bought him originally

 

I do find his attempts to deflect the blame for that onto Parry very distasteful.

 

But,unfortunately we do not have infinite budgets.

 

Getting £15m for a 28.5 year old who isn't good enough is good business as it can be used on someone else who is in the summer.

 

Now, you may not think Rafa will use it well & you may be right

 

But he has at least given us a chance of getting a 1st team player with that money which we didnt have if Keane stayed.

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You're the one that appears slow here, lots of shouting with no ideas to back it up. It's all emotional nonsense from you.

 

Keane wasn't good enough as a player, most people know that. He was as useful as Ngog is. The money thing about Keane is people understanding when you should cut your losses in an effort to reduce further loss, in that respect it was a good move to sell in the Jan window rather than the Summer.

 

Utter utter bollocks, I'd like to see ngog scoring well taken goals like Keane did against West Brom, Bolton, Arsenal, and Athletico Madrid or Kuyt for that matter. Keane could use both feet and whenever he was playing well he was dropped or left on the bench so no wonder he didn't perform. See he is doing good at Spurs tho under a manager who knows how to handle a confidence player and one that doesn't undermine him to score a few points. I would expect that kind of comment though from a Rafa do gooder. He was starting to look good around December until he was bombed out and would have been more useful as back up than the dregs of the squad i.e ngog, el zahir who are league one players.

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Utter utter bollocks, I'd like to see ngog scoring well taken goals like Keane did against West Brom, Bolton, Arsenal, and Athletico Madrid or Kuyt for that matter. Keane could use both feet and whenever he was playing well he was dropped or left on the bench so no wonder he didn't perform. See he is doing good at Spurs tho under a manager who knows how to handle a confidence player and one that doesn't undermine him to score a few points. I would expect that kind of comment though from a Rafa do gooder. He was starting to look good around December until he was bombed out and would have been more useful that the dregs of the squad i.e ngog, el zahir who are league one players.

 

I didn't say Ngog was as good as Keane, I said Keane was as useful as Ngog. Mainly for effect, a slight exaggeration possibly...Keane is obviously a much better player but for us his contribution was pathetic.

 

...

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Keane was a much much better player than N'Gog.

 

And to sell him on the last day of the transfer window, and bring in no replacement, is why the vast majority of fans are angry with Rafa. And it is a fair criticism aswell.

 

I suppose if you're wrong, wrong and then wrong, you can always claim that the "vast majority" are wrong with you.

 

You spend far too much time with your homemade figurine of Rafa and those dirty, blunt pins you keep trying to stick in it. Give it up. It's not working.

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I was out for a few drinks with Christian, of TLW fame, tonight and we were chatting about Rafa, his position and why it seemed under threat. After a few minutes, I just exploded into a ten minute impassioned rant about the whole lunacy of this situation.

 

I realised there was something I needed to get off my chest and I needed to do it right now.

 

Maybe I feel more comfortable saying this from a position of strength following the results we've had in the last two games, but there is no way, no way on this earth, that we should be thinking of replacing Rafa Benitez as manager of our Football Club. It is absolute, unadulterated lunacy. I'm sick of the unwarranted abuse he's taking and I'm sick of the shortsighted horseshit I'm hearing from the mouths of a lot of our own supporters that would make even our fiercest tabloid critics and TV pundits cringe.

 

I don't know what people expect from the man, but to be within four points of United at this stage of the season and to be the most feared team left in the European Cup hat is a scenario we'd have all take at the start of the season.

 

People talk about the dropped points, the mentality, the inability to kill teams off, but that can be put down to one thing and one thing alone. The absence for one third of this season of the Gerrard and Torres dynamic. With those two fully fit and raring to go all season we'd be clear at the top now, there is no doubt in my mind about that. Number nineteen would be beckoning as we speak. As it stands we're still in with a shot, but it's unlikely.

 

We're not lucky enough to be gifted with the resources that allow us to have 5+ £20m midfielders or three £30m strikers like Manchester United have. Or leaving the likes of Deco and Essien on the bench. Or Having the choice between Anelka and Drogba.

 

Granted, Rafa could have performed better in the transfer market this summer, but with our budget, absolutely everything is a gamble, everything is scrutinised to the nth degree, because for us to compete with United and Chelsea these signings just absolutely have to work out. Some have. Some haven't. The result is that we're almost there, but not quite. United can easily write of £36m with Hagreaves and Nani, can afford for Berbatov to have been no more of a success than Keane was at Liverpool. We can't.

 

Sure we can all point to faults this season. His shabby treatment of Alonso, maybe Keane also (although I couldn't give a monkeys about him), his negative 'don't lose' approach in games and team selections that have not paid off. I agree with most of these criticisms. Yes he's stubborn. Yes he frustrates us a lot of the time. I agree that with a little more of a positive attitude we'd have been better off in terms of points, but by the same token, how many points has he won us with team selections we've thought unorthodox? Newcastle away, anyone? He is not perfect by any means. He's not without fault, but he is unquestionably the best man for this job at this moment in time and he has my love and confidence when it comes to the crunch. The last two games are evidence of that.

 

Some people say "we're not moving forward, it's the same problems knocking us back, failing to win against the shit teams" (Someone I consider a very close friend of mine said that to me this weekend) But we have improved. Look at our record against the other three top sides this year. Unbeaten with 13 points from a possible 15. When was the last time we did that? So we HAVE improved and that's why we're closer to the top. I agree our problems have been against weaker opposition at home, but I put that down to the absence and lack of fitness of the best striker in the entire world and the lack of world class cover we're able to provide for him. People will say that if we'd been more positive etc... etc... and maybe they're right. But that's just not Rafa's way. While castigating him for that, people fail to compliment him for how organised we are, how well structured, how good we are at defending leads, how good we are at outsmarting the opposition, how good we are at grounding out results, coming back from behind (something else we've improved on immeasurably this year. Twice against United!), how good we are when we don't have the ball. How we do, in one way or another, "control the game" against everyone we play. He's not perfect. He has his faults, but he is by far the best man for this job.

 

People speak of Rafa's politicking, his use of the fans' affection, his manipulation of the media, but let us not forget that the man is swimming in an ocean of sharks here, taking a strain that no manager in our history (other than Kenny post-Hillsbrough) has ever had to deal with. If there's one man that should come out of this ridiculous mess with his position in tact it's Rafa Benitez. For him to even have us challenging with all that's gone on around him in the last two years is a miracle. The fact that we're still in the hunt for the title? Unbelievable. And who can blame him for trying to align himself one way or the other? People speak of him as a fraud or a liar. Please? There may be an element of self-preservation at the heart of his actions, but Rafa Benitez is a football man who cares more than anything else about winning games for Liverpool Football Club.

 

With regards to the Academy, it is a real shame that no young players are following Gerrard and Carragher into the first team. I think it's felt in Liverpool maybe more than anywhere, because of the immense local pride felt in the team, the "me and you vs the world" ethos that remains so prevalent. But at the end of the day. The plight of a local youngster or internal wranglings over who signed who means absolutely nothing to me if the first team are doing well, which in the main this season we have been (closer than we have been to the top in 7 or 8 years at this stage, flying in europe without our best player for most of the season ).

 

It took me moving away from Liverpool to realise this. To realise that I was too close to the situation and couldn't see the woods for the trees. When I was 19-20 and watching the Liverpool under-19s, I was writing articles campaigning for the likes of Mark Peers and Neil Prince to be given a shot in the first team. Players like Richie Partridge, John Welsh, David Raven, David Mannix, Darren Potter were being grossly mistreated according to me 5 years ago, but I was letting my heart rule my head far too much. Who even bothers to mention these lads now. I couldn't even tell you where most of them are playing. Despite my protestations, they just weren't good enough and the only one I stand by is Mellor. If it wasn't for his injuries he could have had 60. 70. 80 goals for us by now.

 

My point is, in this day and age, the first team is first, second, third and fourth. Look at United, Chelsea and Arsenal and how many top quality lads they've brought through their youth system since the turn of the century.

 

Castigating Rafa for this is to do the same to Ferguson and Wenger the two most successful managers in the modern era. Are they "Cunts" to their fans too for not giving local youngsters more of a chance? No.

 

But no, our fans, fans who have labeled him a genius at times, who savoured Istanbul as their most cherished memory, who have sung his name with all the gusto they could muster from their lungs are now turning their backs on him and slinging as much mud as they can possibly gather at this man. And for what? Because we've dropped points at home? Because we're not miles clear at the top of the league when up against two sides that vastly outrank us in terms of resources, as well as being without the best striker in the world for most of the season? Give me a fucking break. I'm ashamed of the treatment he gets and I'm sick to my back teeth of listening to it.

 

 

Anyway, this is the most I've written about football in a long, long time, but felt it needed to be said. I love Rafa and I do believe he can bring us the title one day, if it's just not to be this year. And I firmly believe that a sixth European Cup is on its way here come the end of May.

 

Viva Rafa.

 

Well said mate.:yes:

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...

 

I didn't see that bit until I posted so apologies but I still maintain he could have been a more than useful squad player, he has a record of improving 2nd half of season and played the Torres role against Arsenal, West Brom and Bolton and notched 5 goals in them games. Maybe he could have made the difference against Boro when we missed all them chances and we would be a point behind United. It seemed to me that whenever he was threatening to go on a good run he was never allowed to gain momentum and I have seen Rafa be more patient with bigger duds and worse players so it was definitely agenda driven as far as I am concerned. A bit like with Crouch when he had something against him and would bring on Voronin ahead of him even though it was clear that Crouch was the better option.

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Here is where I stand.

 

At the beginning of each season I look for progress and I always say I’ll assess the manager along with the whole season right at the end. This way I can take into account all the circumstances which have occurred and make a true assessment of how well we as a team and the manager have performed. The last two matches have been great, however they are only two games in a long season and this is why I don’t think it is the time to say Rafa is the best thing since slice bread. Likewise I didn’t think before these two games it was right to say Rafa needs replacing with some disappointing games and results. Should we lose in the next round of the Champs League no doubt the daggers will come out for Benitez, but personally I will still have the same attitude, that I will judge him at the end of the season.

 

Before the summer I was very much pro Benitez. I thought his record in the transfer market was very good. People will focus on the poor signings and yes they should be mentioned, but what I like is the poor signings have cost the club hardly anything in terms of a financial loss. Most importantly I like it how Benitez will be ruthless and get rid of the signing who have not cut the mustard and will cut his losses, unlike previous Liverpool managers.

 

Having said this no doubt Benitez this season had a poor summer in the market. Keane, whether Rafa wanted him or not did not enhance the first team. It broke up the Gerrard / Torres combination which is excellent. Dossena, Degan and Cavalieri also have not been an improvement in the first team and only Riera really has a chance of starting in our best XI, even that is debatable on current form. Therefore it was a poor summer, but I think as fans we should not have short memories and before this summer, every season Benitez had managed to improve the squad and he has brought in some ‘World Class’ players in Alonso, Reina, Alonso and Torres.

 

In five years:

 

- Rafael Benítez bought 52 players for £190,616,000

 

- Rafael Benítez sold 55 players for £92,075,000

 

++ / LFChistory.net -- Past Present Future

 

This is a net spending of 98 million, which is just under 20 million net per season.

 

Now I am fairly sure Alonso, Reina, Anderson, Agger, Aurelio, Pennant, Kuyt, Arbeloa, Mascherano, Lucas, Leto, Torres, Voronin, Benayoun, Babel, Itandje, Insua, Skrtel, Degen, Dossena, Cavalieri, Ngog, Keane, Riera + numerous youngsters between them will be worth more than 98 million, should we choose to sell. Not only that, the majority of these players can player for 5 years, maybe even 10 years in some cases, such as Reina… now this shows long term investment and in my opinion shrewd ones, as players many of these player are not only the present, they are also the future.

 

But to be honest the spending argument is a touch boring and it has been debated to death. Last summer Benitez had to try and improve our creativity in the final third, improve the wide positions, get one (ideally two) more match winners to help Torres and Gerrard win games and turn all the draws we got into wins. Now correct me if I’m wrong, I think this summer it will be the exact same objective and that just highlights what a poor summer in the market we had.

 

Benitez might not have had the luxury to spend 100+ million on Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney and Berbatov, however he did inherited one of the best players in the world and given he’s spending 100 million, we should be expecting more than one consistent match winner in Torres.

 

However it is clear we are still a very good team, as we have shown in challenging for the title most of this season thus far and our last two results. The statistic that Torres / Gerrard have only started nine games really does make you think, ‘if only’!!!!

 

I have many question marks over Benitez, ones which he needs to answer to me over the summer and season before I will back him in the long term future. I still think he makes too many unnecessary changes to the team selections and it hinders our chances. I also am not sure about his man management, as he really does it seems treat the players as cogs in a machine rather than human beings at times. This doesn’t matter when we’re winning but it can’t help the confidence when our players need a bit of loving or confidence boost. I am not sure I like it how he uses the press to voice his concerns or will throw his toys out of the pram when he doesn’t get everything his own way at the club. I am also skeptical this summer as I fear he’s going to spread our budget trying to improve many positions and ultimately like last summer improving none.

 

That is me being overly critical and if we had any manager in charge of our club, I’m sure I could do a similar list, it would probably be longer in most cases. However the fact is we have made lots of progress under Benitez and I will not forget this when assessing him. Not forgetting the trophies he has bought the club, the players he’s bought, his standing up publicly against the owners even at the risk of him losing his job and turning our team into the most feared in the Champions League. But most of all I really think he ‘gets’ our club. I have read in this thread that people believe he is doing what is best for him and not the club. I totally disagree with that and I think he has shown that he really cares for the club. He has rejected various offers from Spain, overcome the owners trying to appoint above his head, Parry undermining his authority and various stick fgrom the press, to stay at this club. He clearly loves the fans, the league and everything about our club.

 

To sum up I am still very much behind Benitez. He has his flaws and yes he can frustrate me at times. But overall I think he has done a very good job at the club in the five years he has been here. Just look at his record compared to Wenger in these five years and he totally eclipses the Frenchman, despite Arsene starting with a far superior squad, a board which is totally behind him and an infrastructure exactly as he wants the club as he has been there for some time. The grass is always greener and yes maybe someone could do a better job than Benitez. However I’m sure to god a hell of a lot of managers would do far worse. Benitez’s domestic record would be tough to match given he’s competing with three of the best clubs in Europe in Chelsea and Man U who both have vast resources and he finishes above Arsenal more often than not. Not to mention a new manager would have the impossible task of matching his European record, where these funds have been vital in order to making Benitez improve the squad.

 

I think Benitez certainly deserves another summer to try and solve what he should have done at the beginning of this season. Some wide players, hopefully match winners who can help turn our draws into wins, as Gerrard / Torres can’t do it alone. He had the funds last summer, he’ll have them again this season, he just has to go for quality over quantity. We’ve seen players go to other clubs recently who are very much gettable who have enhanced other teams – such as Modric or Arshavin. Benitez must get our very own creators who can hurt the opposition and create chances and space for Torres / Gerrard.

 

However if Benitez fails again this summer, then along with his odd decisions and other flaws I might begin to change my opinion that he is the right man in the long term. Personally as I think the next summer / season is a big one for Benitez, I think a two, maybe three year extension would be more suitable and reasonable, rather than a five year deal, which we might regret by the end of next season.

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