Something I've been meaning to get off my chest for some time, regarding Rafa.

[Tom R]

For me it boils down to this: I fully blame Rafa for blowing the league title this season. It's 100% his fault that we arent top and flying now. He's the gaffer and the buck stops there. Period.

His bizarre subs, his cautious approach, his selection of woeful player picked not on form or merit but on god knows what. And on it goes. It's his fault and nobody elses.

However, I'm not so blind that I can't see that he's also the man that got us in to the position of a challenge in the first place.

 

Chris rightly says that we're reliant on Gerrard and Torres, and their absence of joint playing time has cost us, and I agree with that 100%. But that's a seriously bad thing indeed, and that's also Rafa's fault, 100%. At the end of the day he's very lucky to have inherited the world's best player in Gerrard, and what we're saying here is that he's only managed to sign one other player capable of dragging a team to a league title. That's surely just not good enough, is it?

 

So the question I have to ask myself is "can I forgive Rafa for throwing away a league title and giv him another chance?"

 

After the week we've just had, the kneejerk answer is a resounding YES! But then I think back to almost every other game this season, and the way in which he's behaved at times, and the answer is a resounding and resolute absolute fucking NO.

 

That sums us up under Rafa. My biggest concern is I've had the same feeling at the end of the last 2 seasons as well! When do you accept that it just isn't going to change? ]

If a high quality alternative was on the cards then I'd like to see them come in, but they have to have some serious credentials.

 

We'll see what happens at home against Aston Villa. I have a sinking feeling that I'll be dumped firmly back in the camp of not being able to forgive him after yet another dire home performance

[Unrighteous]

Well said, Chris. I don't agree with all of it, but its well said.

[Roy Hobbs]

firstly congrats to Chris for a very well written post that I do agree with entirely.

 

Chris, superb post. The only sad thing is, those people who REALLY need to read (and get) it - won't.

 

I'm a firm believer that, in any walk of life (going beyond the bounds of footie here), its when the chips are down that people show their true character. For the first time in ages, we have mounted a consistant, and genuine title challenge. With that comes additional angst over every dropped point, etc, etc. In many ways, its harder to support your team when they are on the threshold of attainment, than if they had no real chance of ever reaching the "big one".

 

The depths to which some have leapt to every opportunity to abuse (not criticise, abuse) the manager and/or certain players really speaks volumes. There's no point in naming names - its not about that. But you lot, and you know who you are, need to realise that:

1) you've let yourselves down, shamefully (especially every single one of you sods who boo'ed a Liverpool player, AT ANFIELD)

2) you've been a royal pain in the ar$e in what has otherwise been a really enjoyable, roller coaster season (yes, enjoyable. I've waited years to see the men in red rediscover the ability to grasp victory from the jaws of defeat - again and again)

3) just as I said way back after the 3rd game this season, most of you will be kissing his ar$e and taking your UNfair share of credit for supporting the team, if he does land the big one.

 

If some DO find our victories hard to fully enjoy, because it makes their knee-jerk "fuck off Rafa" agenda less easy to spout - then I actually find some poetic justice in that. Good. Quite frankly, you shouldn't enjoy it as much.

 

Anyway, great post Chris.

 

I also agree with this, a lot.

[Guest juanmanual]

I really enjoyed reading that post.

 

I still have my doubts on Rafa and his philosophy on the game,I'm not alone in thinking that if he were just a little more positive,esp at home then we would be in a far greater position,maybe even top of the league now.

 

But i also believe that there is none out there who could do a better job at the moment giving the turmoil at the boardroom level.

 

I think Rafa has the heart of a loin and i hope an pray that he will deliver what we all so badly want,N.19.

[Royal Family]

Who have you got in mind RF? Are they cranks or well respected forumites?

 

No, I'm talking very well-respected. We can all identify the cranks!

 

I'm glad that this post has sparked honest debate. I agree with most of the criticisms of Rafa's caution (in a sense, we had to abandon caution against United when we went a goal down, and like so often this season, that brought out the best in us) and poor transfer policies (I was one of the biggest critics of signing Keane in the summer, so am consistent on that!). I have no doubt that I'll be on here after games again this season to berate tactics, players, lack of squad depth, etc. BUT it is incredible that some of Rafa's biggest critics can simply filter out these results and not bask in the glory - as I say, it's become clear to me that some supporters simply want him out to the extent that they can no longer celebrate his achievements, and that is incredibly sad.

[Roy Hobbs]

No, I'm talking very well-respected. We can all identify the cranks!

 

I'm glad that this post has sparked honest debate. I agree with most of the criticisms of Rafa's caution (in a sense, we had to abandon caution against United when we went a goal down, and like so often this season, that brought out the best in us) and poor transfer policies (I was one of the biggest critics of signing Keane in the summer, so am consistent on that!). I have no doubt that I'll be on here after games again this season to berate tactics, players, lack of squad depth, etc. BUT it is incredible that some of Rafa's biggest critics can simply filter out these results and not bask in the glory - as I say, it's become clear to me that some supporters simply want him out to the extent that they can no longer celebrate his achievements, and that is incredibly sad.

 

I wish I knew who yuo were talking about. I should but I have not been here as much lately, probably due to the same posters to which you refer.

 

PM, please.

[Tom R]

I really enjoyed reading that post.

 

I still have my doubts on Rafa and his philosophy on the game,I'm not alone in thinking that if he were just a little more positive,esp at home then we would be in a far greater position,maybe even top of the league now.

 

But i also believe that there is none out there who could do a better job at the moment giving the turmoil at the boardroom level.

 

I think Rafa has the heart of a loin and i hope an pray that he will deliver what we all so badly want,N.19.

 

Pork loin?

[redrosetints]

A post of beauty Chris, it really is.

 

Reppety rep rep.

[redrosetints]

For me it boils down to this: I fully blame Rafa for blowing the league title this season. It's 100% his fault that we arent top and flying now. He's the gaffer and the buck stops there. Period.

His bizarre subs, his cautious approach, his selection of woeful player picked not on form or merit but on god knows what. And on it goes. It's his fault and nobody elses.

However, I'm not so blind that I can't see that he's also the man that got us in to the position of a challenge in the first place.

 

Chris rightly says that we're reliant on Gerrard and Torres, and their absence of joint playing time has cost us, and I agree with that 100%. But that's a seriously bad thing indeed, and that's also Rafa's fault, 100%. At the end of the day he's very lucky to have inherited the world's best player in Gerrard, and what we're saying here is that he's only managed to sign one other player capable of dragging a team to a league title. That's surely just not good enough, is it?

 

So the question I have to ask myself is "can I forgive Rafa for throwing away a league title and giv him another chance?"

 

After the week we've just had, the kneejerk answer is a resounding YES! But then I think back to almost every other game this season, and the way in which he's behaved at times, and the answer is a resounding and resolute absolute fucking NO.

 

That sums us up under Rafa. My biggest concern is I've had the same feeling at the end of the last 2 seasons as well! When do you accept that it just isn't going to change? ]

If a high quality alternative was on the cards then I'd like to see them come in, but they have to have some serious credentials.

 

We'll see what happens at home against Aston Villa. I have a sinking feeling that I'll be dumped firmly back in the camp of not being able to forgive him after yet another dire home performance

 

If it wasnt for him we wouldnt have been top, when was the last time we were this close in March ? Were getting better each season and while we hate teh draws now, they are better than losses and in time, he will turn some of those into wins. I really can see us going a season unbeaten and winning no 19 very soon. His methodology is about finding a way to win, all this negative he goes for draws stuff is bull, he wants to rule the world, like Shanks did, with his bastion of invincibility, he will do it, we will win no 9 and it will be Rafa who does it. You must see that Tom ?

[Tom R]

If it wasnt for him we wouldnt be top. You must see that Tom ?

 

we're not top, are we? Last time I looked we were third?

[Guest juanmanual]

Pork loin?

 

Nah,he's tougher.

 

I share you frustrations mate,there has been times this season when i wouldn't have cared if he left,it's a constant roller coaster ride with him,feeling this way feeling that way,and if he were to leave in the summer,who would you like to see come in?

 

I cant see anyone out there available at the minute who would bring us any closer.

 

Imo what he needs to do is abandon the 4-2-3-1 at home,get in a quality RW and RB in the summer and go for it from the off in games at home.

 

If he does as much then we WILL win the Prem with him imo,if he wont then he can leave and i wont shed a tear.

[HJohal]

Quality post -

 

In the cold light of day when your emotions are not echoing around you just think what life was like before Rafa arrived - when your mind had given up on fighting with the 'big boys' for the trophies that really mattered and we were satisfied with winning the odd battle now and then. We had become just a big name with no substance with only memories of the past. Now think where we are now... that's why Rafa deserves our time and RESPECT.

[redrosetints]

I have made my opinion known, I simply have not seen anything from him to indicate he will win the league. Say what you want about Torres/Gerrard, but it was Benitez who signed Keane and tried to break up that partnership early in the season. He is the manager who tried to sign Barry, and sell Alonso to pay for Barry, Alonso who has been our best player of the season. I can go on all day about the massive fuck ups he constantly makes, and hasn't made any attempt to rectify it. It feels like every season we're going to do well in the CL against some good side, and get a few good results then people will say "Maybe next season". I don't trust him at all, and I don't have any respect for him because I don't think he has whats best for the club at his heart, just whats best for Benitez.

 

Alonso hasnt been our best player this season, he's been good, but he's only been given that label by pepople like yourself as it allows them to continue having apop over Rafa nearly selling him.

 

If you cant enjoy being an LFC fan after the last two games, when can you. best win over the mancs for 73 years and a 4-0 over Madrid in their first visit to anfield. A draw with Stoke pales into insignificance compared to those, it really, really, does.

[redrosetints]

we're not top, are we? Last time I looked we were third?

 

Ohh, too quick for me Tom old boy. I realised Id posted it wrong and changed it.

 

No were not but we wouldnt have been were it not for Rafa.

 

Really, we draw at home ever year, we've drawn, nay even lost to supposed cannon fodder regularly in the past 20 years, its not new although under Rafa we've generally had a very good home record.

 

Best Premier league start ever (ie up until now, after 29 games, weve never had more points)

Best Champions League start ever.

 

How can anyone dispute these ? Progress in terms of most league points after 29 games and most CL group points ever are not spin, they are cold hard Tom Ross facts mate.

[Major Tom]

 

If you cant enjoy being an LFC fan after the last two games, when can you. best win over the mancs for 73 years and a 4-0 over Madrid in their first visit to anfield. A draw with Stoke pales into insignificance compared to those, it really, really, does.

 

But it doesn't unfortunately. If anything, a great win over Utd at OT highlights the fact we can't score against Stoke in 180 minutes. It makes it all the more galling.

 

I would take a 4-1 humping by Utd at Anfield if it meant a Prem win. I would take it every single day of the week.

[Royal Family]

Alonso hasnt been our best player this season, he's been good, but he's only been given that label by pepople like yourself as it allows them to continue having apop over Rafa nearly selling him.

 

.

 

That's quite correct. Xabi's been great this season - although less so since Christmas, I feel - but that is also partly a reflection on how his standards had dropped for the last 2 years. But he's by no means our best or most important player (that's an absolute insult to Gerrard this year, whose brilliance has just become routine) , but has been given that status on this forum because of off-field events.

[INTORRESTING]

By all means have a go in May if it is reasoned and you are not happy but we can still win the double!

 

The 24 hour news phenomenon, forums, punditry, sky, internet etc has caused analysis to the nth degree. The likes of Talksport cause controversy to make money and get interest, Collymore is still talking about mourinho coming to us! People find problems where there aren't any. If we do manage to pull off a miracle this year then the press will turn on United and Fergie and just look at their success in the past, it doesn't make sense! Too many involved in football are vultures and to be honest everyone is a wannabe journalist. People love their ego being fed whether it is on a site like Facebook or on a forum and i think people try to prove they are right and argue a point when they probably half agree but may have not expressed it properly. Controversy is of course the best way to get attention.

 

We would be getting nowhere near as much stick if the wider audience were back in the watching teletext days and reading a column in whatever paper we appeared in and the chat was confined to the ground and the pubs and people who went to the match took their thoughts away with them and had some banter over match of the day.

 

However, we have sold our souls and we must take what comes with that and be aware that internet streaming means the whole world can watch every minute of every game and also get a chance to brush up on their mandarin in some of the lesser games like the carling cup that the English commentators don't bother with! So every action gets reported on and if there is no news, just make it up!

 

The thing i don't understand is that as we are so open and exposed as clubs why don't we unite and create a siege mentality in the face of fierce criticism? How can we boo going top of the league and boo our young squad players?

 

We have a manager who has made some very odd decisions, is involved in a public war and has had a few nightmares in the transfer market. However he is also one of the best managers in world football in a very tough political situation. Considering the competition we face in England and looking at the situation at other clubs i think we can dominate in the future.

 

I look at the fact that all we need to do is turn 0-0's into 1-0's and we are there, some want to sack the manager for getting those 0-0's in the first place. I can take that but not now, not in March. I also think we are building and think Rafa should be given a few more years with the players he wants and i cant wait to see how Masch, Torres, Gerrard, Alonso etc continue to grow together as this is only Torres's second year!

 

Why don't we just wait until May?

[INTORRESTING]

That's quite correct. Xabi's been great this season - although less so since Christmas, I feel - but that is also partly a reflection on how his standards had dropped for the last 2 years. But he's by no means our best or most important player (that's an absolute insult to Gerrard this year, whose brilliance has just become routine) , but has been given that status on this forum because of off-field events.

 

I was all for the Barry/Alonso swap at the time but admit he has been our best player this year. Gerrard has been explosive at times but Xabi has had us ticking. Gerrard is often man of the moment but i think Alonso has been and has deserved man of the match more times and therefore is player of the season for us.

[ToxtethTerror]

If it wasnt for him we wouldnt have been top, when was the last time we were this close in March ?

 

Houllier 2002.

[mattyq]

Don't often agree with you Chris but... when you're right, you're right.

Great post, articulate, passionate and well argued. Repped.

Good read, mate

[SpeedyG]

I think everyone believes it would be easier with better players, but we don't have them.

 

We don't have them NOW. But the project is not complete.

 

People who use combine optimism with a healthy dose of realism are usually right. When people argue for freedom, they are talking about letting players play with more 'instinct' and fluidity, which probably means the attacking four playing with a little less focus on other aspects of what Benitez would see as important aspects of their game.

 

We are often seen as predictable, slow-witted and static, especially when Torres and/or Gerrard are unavailable. That's a shame, because with one or two notable exceptions, the players are generally not like that.

 

Playing with 'freedom' is a tactic - it hasn't done Ferguson's teams any harm in the last 15 years or so.

 

To me it seems obvious that to Benitez freedom is not a tactic it is but a single dimension in an overall tactical plan. He also does not see it as a discrete thing, he sees it as a continuum, with freedom at one end and discipline at the other. He sees it as a zero sum game.

 

The goal then is to find the right balance between the two. I also don't think more freedom is automatically good nor more discipline necessarily bad. Take the example of Torres against Manure. He was successful in part due to the denial of freedom. Instead of being told to float freely to an extent his freedom was denied and he was told isolate regularly 1 on 1 with Vidic because there was a mismatch there. You see how in that case less freedom is better.

 

I'd also counter that there are examples where Benitez has embraced freedom to the extent of re-inventing his tactical plan to allow Gerrard as much freedom as possible.

 

Freedom is important, but it's more complicated than some would have you believe and IMO is not the panacea some seem to think it is. At the end of the day more freedom = less discipline. Dirk Kuyt afforded more freedom doesn't add anything. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't a problem or that we're doing it the right way just that it's not as black and white as some would think. In a couple of more years Kuyt will rightfully become our Ji Sung Park and be rolled out for the right kind of games, he'll be replaced with someone that can beat a man, that can dribble, that can improvise and then you'll be right.

 

Just one more point about predictability because to me the secret of our success against manure was their very predictability. They are so predictable that Benitez was able to come up with a specific plan to use that predictability against them. For sure they have players that are much much better than some of ours and they can do some crazy stuff that ours can't but to me they are just as predictable as we were unpredictable against RM.

 

I honestly believe Benitez will learn from the Madrid game - more aggression, more dynamism, and more commitment to attack will work even against teams who play deep.

 

I think in that game he demonstrated that he has already learned how to win those kind of games and I don't think anyone can question his tactics against the big teams or in open games. His failing has consistently been against teams that park the bus and that game offered nothing in the way of solutions to that problem IMO.

 

Remember the Liverpool of the 70's? Away against top class opposition, we would play a system that could absorb pressure, could hold on to the ball, and would look to build momentum through the game. At home, we would steamroller the opposition into submission. Granted, we did have genuine pace at the back, but we would adopt a high line and pummel the opposition. United do much the same now. They got stuffed on Saturday, but they don't come up against a top class attack every week. Neither do we, and there's no shame in adopting a tactic used by the best team in the country over the last 15 years in those circumstances.

 

That's everyone's biggest gripe against Benitez. If he could fix that, we'd be more successful and all the supporters would be happy. Apart from atk.

 

I don't remember the 70's well enough to know whether the anti-football of 10 men behind the ball existed to the extent it does today, I rather doubt it myself.

 

My biggest gripe with Benitez is that he still hasn't solved the park the bus problem too a) I just don't think "freedom" is the entire solution and b) I think he can solve it without compromising discipline and if he does we'll be a better team for it and pretty much unbeatable.

 

As I alluded to at the beginning this is a project, the tactics are a work in process and the playing staff are a work in process and some of the decisions he makes are IMO with an eye to an end goal that we are not privvy to and so what might not make sense in the short-term may just be relevant in the long-term. For me he has earnt the benefit of the doubt.

[The 5th Benitel]

I've loved the last week but people need to get perspective and see two brilliant results dont mask the problems we've had all season. Just like when the nobs who call him a cunt when we dont win it's very easy to come on here now and hail him as a genius. The truth is we had a real opportunity to challenge for the league this year, one that might not repsent itself again for a while, and we were out of it by the 2nd week of Feb. Benitez was a major reason that was the case.

 

Blaming SG and FT being out is ridiculous imo. We lost our league challenge to Stoke, Hull, Fulham, West Ham etc, teams who struggle to spend as much on forwards as we do on left backs. In most of those games we had one of them playing and, even if we didn't, our over reliance on them was always going to cost them. They're never going to both be fit all the time and a team like Liverpool should have more than two quality attackers anyway. Benitez was happy to go into the 2nd half of our first title challenge in years having spent more on defensive mids than he had on forwards on our squad. That says it all really.

 

Anyone who has sat through our home matches this season will have seen the problems we've had. The often dull, insipid football, the baffling line ups and substitutions, the settling for draws instead of going for wins. These aren't things people have made up, they've actually sat and watched them happen.

 

Add to that the things that have come out that have given the impression that he hasn't got the clubs best interest at hear. Look at the other week when his contract was all over the paper before a vital game agasint City and Kuyt's comments about being told not to re-sign. People will defend him to the end of the earth but i find things like that very hard to explain.

 

That all sounds very negative after such good results but i took exception to the suggestion you're not a good fan if you dont back the manager. I go the match ad get right behind the team but anyone who hasn't had grave concerns about what they seen aside ffrom the last week this season must be seing something different than i have. You can blame the boardroom struggle all you want but Parry didn't play Lucas instead of Alonso when Gerrard was injured or sub Mascherano cos he was attacking too much when we needed a goal or all of the other mistakes that mean we beat the mancs and Chelsea twice in a season but are still realistically to far off the pace to challenge for the lead.

 

I'd love nothing more than to be right up there and the end of the season and proved completely wrong. It'll be very interesting to see if he keeps up this attacking attitude.

[redrosetints]

But it doesn't unfortunately. If anything, a great win over Utd at OT highlights the fact we can't score against Stoke in 180 minutes. It makes it all the more galling.

 

I would take a 4-1 humping by Utd at Anfield if it meant a Prem win. I would take it every single day of the week.

 

Earth Control to Major Tom,

Your talking rubbish.

 

How can a 73 year record win at the Skip be the same as a draw at home to Stoke ? havent we drawn at home for 73 years ?

 

Rafa has the best home record of any manager since Dalglish, in terms of avg points, wins, draws and losses.

[redrosetints]

I've loved the last week but people need to get perspective and see two brilliant results dont mask the problems we've had all season. Just like when the nobs who call him a cunt when we dont win it's very easy to come on here now and hail him as a genius. The truth is we had a real opportunity to challenge for the league this year, one that might not repsent itself again for a while, and we were out of it by the 2nd week of Feb. Benitez was a major reason that was the case.

 

Blaming SG and FT being out is ridiculous imo. We lost our league challenge to Stoke, Hull, Fulham, West Ham etc, teams who struggle to spend as much on forwards as we do on left backs. In most of those games we had one of them playing and, even if we didn't, our over reliance on them was always going to cost them. They're never going to both be fit all the time and a team like Liverpool should have more than two quality attackers anyway. Benitez was happy to go into the 2nd half of our first title challenge in years having spent more on defensive mids than he had on forwards on our squad. That says it all really.

 

Anyone who has sat through our home matches this season will have seen the problems we've had. The often dull, insipid football, the baffling line ups and substitutions, the settling for draws instead of going for wins. These aren't things people have made up, they've actually sat and watched them happen.

 

Add to that the things that have come out that have given the impression that he hasn't got the clubs best interest at hear. Look at the other week when his contract was all over the paper before a vital game agasint City and Kuyt's comments about being told not to re-sign. People will defend him to the end of the earth but i find things like that very hard to explain.

 

That all sounds very negative after such good results but i took exception to the suggestion you're not a good fan if you dont back the manager. I go the match ad get right behind the team but anyone who hasn't had grave concerns about what they seen aside ffrom the last week this season must be seing something different than i have. You can blame the boardroom struggle all you want but Parry didn't play Lucas instead of Alonso when Gerrard was injured or sub Mascherano cos he was attacking too much when we needed a goal or all of the other mistakes that mean we beat the mancs and Chelsea twice in a season but are still realistically to far off the pace to challenge for the lead.

 

I'd love nothing more than to be right up there and the end of the season and proved completely wrong. It'll be very interesting to see if he keeps up this attacking attitude.

 

its the other way around mate, the odd draw at home, doesnt mask the huge strides were taking forward and the fact we are getting into a position to challenge.

 

Amazing how the same thing is viewed from polar opposites.

[redrosetints]

Houllier 2002.

 

So once in 20 years ? I think that shows its exactly why we should be sticking with Rafa, not getting rid.