Something I've been meaning to get off my chest for some time, regarding Rafa.

[Jose Jones]

I have made my opinion known, I simply have not seen anything from him to indicate he will win the league. Say what you want about Torres/Gerrard, but it was Benitez who signed Keane and tried to break up that partnership early in the season. He is the manager who tried to sign Barry, and sell Alonso to pay for Barry, Alonso who has been our best player of the season. I can go on all day about the massive fuck ups he constantly makes, and hasn't made any attempt to rectify it. It feels like every season we're going to do well in the CL against some good side, and get a few good results then people will say "Maybe next season". I don't trust him at all, and I don't have any respect for him because I don't think he has whats best for the club at his heart, just whats best for Benitez.

 

What do you think is “best for Benitez” and why do you think he wants that if it’s to the detriment of the club?

Serious question.

[philyhamann]

What do you think is “best for Benitez” and why do you think he wants that if it’s to the detriment of the club?

Serious question.

 

Buddying up to Hicks as soon as Hicks starts talking to him, and telling SoS to stop any protests is enough for me - especially under the bullshit reason of it effects the team (this after the Manc game).

[Jose Jones]

So basically you distrust Rafa because he cares about keeping his job? I mean he already had Parry and Gillett wanting to sack him, he’d already made two or three outbursts against Hicks so it was pretty much shut up or he’s out. I don’t really see what more Rafa could have done against the owners, without getting sacked – and it’s obvious he wants to keep his job. I wasn’t at the SOS meeting obviously so can’t really comment on that, but surely SOS could have carried on with protests if they’d chosen to?

 

For me the ownership and CEO situation is so fucked up that I can put aside some of the distasteful things Rafa has done, e.g. political use of Keane, and the academy for now, because he’s definitely the lesser of 5 evils. I’m pretty sure most of what Rafa wants to do he thinks is for the best of the club in the long run. Now you might disagree and think he’s wrong, but I don’t see him selling the club up the river just for his ego. I think Chris makes that point fairly well. I can’t see any other manager coping with the situation any differently or better than Benitez.

[Lupin]

In fact, I have a lot to say about some of the stuff said but I just can't be arsed at the moment.

 

Your avatar really suits your sunny and well-balanced disposition.

[philyhamann]

So basically you distrust Rafa because he cares about keeping his job? I mean he already had Parry and Gillett wanting to sack him, he’d already made two or three outbursts against Hicks so it was pretty much shut up or he’s out. I don’t really see what more Rafa could have done against the owners, without getting sacked – and it’s obvious he wants to keep his job. I wasn’t at the SOS meeting obviously so can’t really comment on that, but surely SOS could have carried on with protests if they’d chosen to?

 

For me the ownership and CEO situation is so fucked up that I can put aside some of the distasteful things Rafa has done, e.g. political use of Keane, and the academy for now, because he’s definitely the lesser of 5 evils. I’m pretty sure most of what Rafa wants to do he thinks is for the best of the club in the long run. Now you might disagree and think he’s wrong, but I don’t see him selling the club up the river just for his ego. I think Chris makes that point fairly well. I can’t see any other manager coping with the situation any differently or better than Benitez.

 

He wouldn't have been sacked for not cosying up to SoS, and telling them to stop protests. He would rather get his 5 year contract, and strengthen Hicks' position than tell them to fuck off and do what is right FOR THE CLUB. It isn't just that, I don't think he can win the league, and I think his politicing with the Academy is a fucking disgrace regardless of your opinion on players coming out of it. It is not right when you have scouts/talent coaches saying there is no point coming here, and that you have more chance at every other NW club cause of the manager.

 

People suddenly seem to be pulling out the Torres/Gerrard thing, but Benitez broke that up with the purchase of Keane! Is this a manager who has a clue? I think he should get a 2-3 year extension on his current deal, but not the 5 proposed. I don't see what he has done to justify a 5 year contract when there are many managers who would take the job at the drop of a hat considering the amount of control, guarentees and funds they get.

[Little Sammy]

Great post mate. I agree with 51% of what you said, and appreciate the honesty and support you have for the man.

 

I'd like to respond to this bit though:

 

"People talk about the dropped points, the mentality, the inability to kill teams off, but that can be put down to one thing and one thing alone. The absence for one third of this season of the Gerrard and Torres dynamic. With those two fully fit and raring to go all season we'd be clear at the top now, there is no doubt in my mind about that."

 

Gerrard and Torres are magnificent players, two of the best in the world, but there are absolutely no excuses for the draws we had against shithouses like Wigan, Stoke, West Ham, City at home and so on. It would be an insult to the rest of the team if you said that we cannot beat that dross without Gerrard and Torres, especially when we crushed the Mancs and Chelsea mainly without them.

 

And Rafa is partly at fault in this case. People seem to have short-term memories, but what is still fresh in my mind that Wigan equaliser and Rafa promptly replacing Gerrard and Benayoun I think it was. Then bringing on Lucas who even the most ardent supporter would say had a terrible January. And that is just one example of his many bizarre January substitutions.

 

So my question is Chris, how do you explain that behaviour by Rafa? I'm still seething from his cautious approach to most of these games when we should've taken the game to them and overwhelmed them. I mean for fucks sake, we've overwhelmed fucking Real Madrid, can't we do the same to West fucking Ham?

 

The most frustrating thing about this season is that we've wiped the floor with most of the Big Four, but yet cannot get past the utter shit of the league. And if the players are not motivated for matches against dross, then something must be wrong with the team.

 

I don't like coming across as a doom monger, but in spite of our magnificent week, and in spite of the fact that I've enjoyed tormenting my Manc friends, the truth remains that our proud league record, the record that has been with us for our whole lives, the record that Souness, Dalglish, Barnesy, Thompson, all would have died for, is gone. Just like that....

[ToxtethTerror]

Phily lets move away from all the internal politics - Benitez will soon have a CEO to work with who will be his boss. That boss will then decide what happens where and that is probably Rafa's sticking point on his contract - the amount of control he has.

 

We should judge him on his achievements on the pitch and despite some wretched performances and ale house football this season, we are challenging for the title to a degree and doing well in the Champions League as usual.

 

It's not easy getting a manager to come and make that next BIG step, or to take a team to the holy grail... just ask Mourinho at Inter Milan - who has acheived nothing more than what Mancini did. Mourinho also failed to do what Rafa has done twice this season which is outsmart Ferguson.

 

I am Rafa's biggest critic but as a Liverpool fan we can't ignore whats in front of our eyes. Just like we didn't ignore the shit performances, we can't now ignore the genuine strides being made of late. I think we need to hold our nerve and just allow that little bit more time because we are close, my God we are close and with the right two signings in the summer we might just get there....

 

This summer's signings will make or break Rafa's time here, lets give him a chance eh? He has deserved it.

[Section_31]

That's a fucking awesome post by Chris, I don't agree with some of it but it's a top, top post.

 

The truth with Rafa lies somewhere in the middle I think. He doesn't deserve the lack of respect shown to him by some, but nor does he deserve the constantly apologetic unswerving support of others.

 

You have to weigh things up and look at the overall picture, IMO our football had deteriorated in quality and so had our squad (and will do again, if and when Agger and Xabi go) and I have grave concerns about Rafa's ability to replace them due to his past performances in the transfer market.

 

And while I agree that the mancs can afford to fuck up more in the transfer market, that's because they still play good footy and are always there near the top. I think if our players came in and performed well, with the team playing good football - people would forgive us the odd transfer balls up - and would probably forgive us even a top four finish rather than a top two.

 

It's about progress, and not just points progress, but the quality of the squad and the actual play. Both have gone backwards IMO (when you look at this season as a whole) and need to be arrested.

[Thants]

Sometimes I do think like Chris. Especially regarding football and 95% of that post. Top post Chris.

[Scouse_Datcha]

Top post Chris !

 

But I think there is another reasson too.

After the players realised that Parry was a dead man walking, they've been playing great ( M'boro was to soon ! ). 3 games, 10-1.

[stringvest]

I think this is a key difference between people who are more optimistic and those who are less so. Some seem to think the only way to beat these teams is to play with more "freedom", others think you can do that it in many many ways with better players, better tactics, etc etc.

 

Why are you so sure that "freedom" is the only answer?

 

I think everyone believes it would be easier with better players, but we don't have them. People who use combine optimism with a healthy dose of realism are usually right. When people argue for freedom, they are talking about letting players play with more 'instinct' and fluidity, which probably means the attacking four playing with a little less focus on other aspects of what Benitez would see as important aspects of their game.

 

We are often seen as predictable, slow-witted and static, especially when Torres and/or Gerrard are unavailable. That's a shame, because with one or two notable exceptions, the players are generally not like that.

 

Playing with 'freedom' is a tactic - it hasn't done Ferguson's teams any harm in the last 15 years or so.

 

I honestly believe Benitez will learn from the Madrid game - more aggression, more dynamism, and more commitment to attack will work even against teams who play deep.

 

Remember the Liverpool of the 70's? Away against top class opposition, we would play a system that could absorb pressure, could hold on to the ball, and would look to build momentum through the game. At home, we would steamroller the opposition into submission. Granted, we did have genuine pace at the back, but we would adopt a high line and pummel the opposition. United do much the same now. They got stuffed on Saturday, but they don't come up against a top class attack every week. Neither do we, and there's no shame in adopting a tactic used by the best team in the country over the last 15 years in those circumstances.

 

That's everyone's biggest gripe against Benitez. If he could fix that, we'd be more successful and all the supporters would be happy. Apart from atk.

[Major Tom]

He wouldn't have been sacked for not cosying up to SoS, and telling them to stop protests. He would rather get his 5 year contract, and strengthen Hicks' position than tell them to fuck off and do what is right FOR THE CLUB. It isn't just that, I don't think he can win the league, and I think his politicing with the Academy is a fucking disgrace regardless of your opinion on players coming out of it. It is not right when you have scouts/talent coaches saying there is no point coming here, and that you have more chance at every other NW club cause of the manager.

 

People suddenly seem to be pulling out the Torres/Gerrard thing, but Benitez broke that up with the purchase of Keane! Is this a manager who has a clue? I think he should get a 2-3 year extension on his current deal, but not the 5 proposed. I don't see what he has done to justify a 5 year contract when there are many managers who would take the job at the drop of a hat considering the amount of control, guarentees and funds they get.

 

I agree with a lot of this.

 

I am obviously very pleased with the past two results but what is the point of beating Utd 4-1 if we are still relying on Fulham - among others - to beat them for us to have any chance at the league title?

 

We've blown the league big style this year and Rafa's conservative approach, poor transfer dealings last summer and the failure to get the best out of players I believe other managers would do, has played a huge part in that. Obviously Torres' injury problems have also been a big factor.

 

We will no doubt have a great run-in, miss out on the title by 5 points or so, think to ourselves 'a couple of shrewd signings in the summer and next year is our year', fill ourselves with optimism next August, trust Rafa's blindside signings and...

 

...we'll draw 0-0 with Burnley at home.

 

Apologies for the negativity and all..

[zico]

Great post......

 

Sums it up nicely!!

[Glen C]

It's always been about challenging for the title for me. It's been 5 years now and if we fail to mount a good challenge coming up to the end of April then we haven't challenged simple as that. Yeah we're all still in the euphoria of a amazing week. But challenging the big teams isn't what I'm worried about, it's the small teams that have cost us. I just think that rafa gives the smaller teams too much respect and we still haven't solved the problem on the flanks. Kuyt and riera aren't good enough when we play the small teams as we need more creativity in the final 3rd against these teams. Against the big teams they come at us so we get the space to create something. But when teams put everyone behind the ball we're sometimes clueless.

Also I don't get why(aside from this week) we normally play a game at such a slow tempo. We just look too predictable and clueless that way.

 

But like I said, if we put up a good challenge then he deserves a new contract. But he badly needs to sort out our flanks and play at a higher tempo more often. Oh and not to settle for a draw so often, push for the win.

[spider-neil]

that was a very good read and you are quite correct with the claim torres and gerrard we have seen us more points but quite simply a more adventurous approach would have seen us claim more points, that's about as close to a fact without it actually being a fact. 10 draws. 10. we could have lost half those games won half those games gambling in search of the win and been better off than we are now (15 points instead of 10 putting us top).

[Catch22]

Excelent post Chris but you miss out a personal favourite: the criticism of his transfer dealings that relies on double counting & failing to distinguish between turnover & profit/loss.

 

Hopefully all of those people who have lived in different houses in the course of their life, add up the total they have spent on them & then criticise themselves everyday for not presently living in a house equal to the value of the total.

[AvB]

GET IN!!

 

Repped.

[Bogman]

As the saying goes, you don't know what you've got, until it's gone.

 

If Rafa was to leave, I think alot of the doubters would be quoting that.

 

Spot on with your rant Chris, sums up everything for me.

 

Whatever you think about the man, he has us in his heart. If he was out for his own gains, and his own ego, he would have pissed off years ago.

He has up with alot for us, and for me, he gets my respect.

[Major Tom]

Excelent post Chris but you miss out a personal favourite: the criticism of his transfer dealings that relies on double counting & failing to distinguish between turnover & profit/loss.

 

Hopefully all of those people who have lived in different houses in the course of their life, add up the total they have spent on them & then criticise themselves everyday for not presently living in a house equal to the value of the total.

 

Don't forget the wages..

[Vincent Vega]

I think everyone believes it would be easier with better players, but we don't have them. People who use combine optimism with a healthy dose of realism are usually right. When people argue for freedom, they are talking about letting players play with more 'instinct' and fluidity, which probably means the attacking four playing with a little less focus on other aspects of what Benitez would see as important aspects of their game.

 

We are often seen as predictable, slow-witted and static, especially when Torres and/or Gerrard are unavailable. That's a shame, because with one or two notable exceptions, the players are generally not like that.

 

Playing with 'freedom' is a tactic - it hasn't done Ferguson's teams any harm in the last 15 years or so.

 

I honestly believe Benitez will learn from the Madrid game - more aggression, more dynamism, and more commitment to attack will work even against teams who play deep.

 

Remember the Liverpool of the 70's? Away against top class opposition, we would play a system that could absorb pressure, could hold on to the ball, and would look to build momentum through the game. At home, we would steamroller the opposition into submission. Granted, we did have genuine pace at the back, but we would adopt a high line and pummel the opposition. United do much the same now. They got stuffed on Saturday, but they don't come up against a top class attack every week. Neither do we, and there's no shame in adopting a tactic used by the best team in the country over the last 15 years in those circumstances.

 

That's everyone's biggest gripe against Benitez. If he could fix that, we'd be more successful and all the supporters would be happy. Apart from atk.

 

I'm in work and don't have time to write a proper post, but I'd just like to say that stringvest has conveyed exactly what I was trying to say, and has articulated his post superbly.

[Brownie]

That's a really well written post from Chris. I don't agree with too much of it, but it's certainly a great read. I think Stringvest sums up my opinion perfectly well, although i'm not so sure that the Real Madrid game will have taught Rafa anything.

 

He has is own methods of winning games and won't change, IMO.

[Guest Ulysses Everett McGill]

Buddying up to Hicks as soon as Hicks starts talking to him, and telling SoS to stop any protests is enough for me - especially under the bullshit reason of it effects the team (this after the Manc game).

 

That is absolute fucking nonsense

 

You have absolutely no idea what the relationship between Rafa and Hicks is like, and yet you use it as an excuse the have a pop at him

 

I'm all for reasoned debate but peddling that shite is ridiculous.

 

And in regards to your point about Keane, granted, he was an awful signing in retrospect (I couldn't understand it at the time either but anyway) but would you not agree we are a bit light up top when Torres is unavailable?

[Tom R]

A boss post.

 

Great post, Chris. I agree with much of it and disgaree with much of it also, but it harks back to teh days on here when the debate was reasoned and articulate.

 

Top man

[Guest Ulysses Everett McGill]

Great post, Chris. I agree with much of it and disgaree with much of it also, but it harks back to teh days on here when the debate was reasoned and articulate.

 

Top man

 

 

Amen brother

[Brownie]

There's absolutely no doubt that this last week has been brilliant. Spanking Real Madrid at Anfield and then turning the horrible vermin over on their own patch is stuff of dreams, but it will only actually mean something if there's tangible success at the end. We've took massive steps forward in the big games this season but unfortunately it means nothing if you can't beat the rest.

 

This is where we fall down, IMO, and it's something that needs addressing either way.

 

I fancy us to beat Villa next week because they will probably have a go at us but it's the forthcoming games against Fulham, Blackburn and Hull which make me shudder a bit, and that's just not right.

 

How can a team that beat Real Madrid home and away, Man Utd home and away and Chelsea home and away fail to score a goal against Stoke City for instance? It's just absolutely ridiculous.

 

People keep saying that we've been unlucky with injuries regarding Torres and Gerrard but that's part and parcel of football. You will always get injuries so you can't just rely on plan A and then explain away poor results/performances because of that. We had it under GH - 'IF Owen had stayed fit we'd have been alright', etc...

 

It's just excuses for me and I hate using excuses. We're exactly where we have been for about three years now, 'just two players away from having a truly great team'. We've needed better wide players since Rafa walked in the door but we're still waiting and who can say unequivocally that Rafa will address this issue in the summer?

 

All of that is without even going into the debate about style of football. We should be aiming to fly out of the traps, ala Madrid, in every game at Anfield but the tempo is usually low and we concentrate on trying to out-think shite opposition rather than just smashing them into submission.

 

I had no problem with the approach at OT because that's just how you win the big games. What about Hull at home though, as an example, where we were throwing everything at them and then stopped because the game was, 'too open.' I want games to be open at Anfield. The Madrid game was open (they actually created a fair few chances) but so what? I have faith that we can outscore anyone if given the chance.

 

Anyway i'm rambling now; all I can say is that this week has been fantastic but it doesn't aleviate the doubts i've had for a couple of years. I'd love to have unswerving faith but I don't and i'm not going to lie about it; too much water has passed under the bridge for me. Hopefully over time, and with certain changes, that faith may slowly come back (and I hope it does) but for now i'm going to do what I always do and wait until May before judging the season.