Rafa to finally pen 5 year deal next week?

[Kevin D]

If Rafa had been able to do his job without 1 hand tied behind his back and a retarded clown puppet master doing the deals for him, I think we would have won the title by now. So another 5 years on HIS terms will be good.

 

This is madness. Yet unsurprising.

[The 5th Benitel]

But Keane is the 20m player, Rafa got wrong as alluded to today in his pre match conference stuff. UNited can afford to buy 5 30m players, Veron was a bust and Tevez is continually left on the bench, inspite of the fact everyone on here would rate Tevez better than Keane, I suspect. Fergie doesnt get criticised because a) he can call on moe 30m playres to plug the gap and b) cos he's winning, but that would well be because of a). Rafa played Keane 70% of the games while he was here and Keane was v poor, no esaping it. It was a mistake, its nor Rafas fault he cant make that due to our lack of money.

 

Otherwise Two points. Firstly, that we have the best strike partnership in the world, in Torres and Gerrard. 8PL games they have started together this season, 8 !

 

Second, he didnt have 100m to spend at once, it was evolution. Owen left, Cisse broke his leg, we won the CL with Mellor, Baros and Sinama Pongolle. We then had Morientes, onto Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch and now to Torres and Gerrard. It may not be an exact step up in each one, but the overall movment has been to better players.

 

Bellamy and Crouch are both good premiership players, but neither are better than Gerrard or Torres, Crouch was offered a new deal but he chose to play for Portsmouth to keep his England chances alive.

 

 

This is becoming one of my pet hates. I understand people still back Benitez, in fact my Dad is one of them and he's sat and watched the same team as me, but there are some that will just defend him for everything. Yes, Keane was that 20m and we needed him cos we were obviously too reliant on two players to win us games and if either of them was out for a while we would be fucked. When he decided to let him go Torres had been in and out with injuries all season and it was painfully obviousl to everyone we were short of decent attackers. Now, while i think he deserved more of a chance to regain his form, i can understand if he thought Keane wasn't up to it. However, he was still clearly more of a goal threat than any of the other replacements for Torres and he still let him go knowing he wasn't bringing in a replacement. This is at a time when us fans were gearig up for our first title challenge in years.

 

I'm not sure how much money we'd have lost by sellig him in the summer but i'm sure i would have had sacrificed it to have had more attackign threat these last few months and maybe be within 5 point of the mancs. As it is we'll never know how close we would have been but, as i said before, no other team in the league would rather have Kuyt, Babel and N'gog than Keane when they're looking for goals.

 

As for all the other forwards he's signed, clearly he didn't think they were up to it or they would have featured more and would probably have stayed. Other teams have decent standard subs who dont fuck off the first chance they get to inferior teams. Maybe it's his man management? All i know for definate is we're at the end of his 5th year with a hunderd odd million spent and there's one quality attacker in our squad that he's signed. There is no real excuse for that. He cant blame money when it's been his decision to have £36m worth of defensice midfielders in the squad and he spent the summer trying to bring in an even more exspensive one.

[The 5th Benitel]

You're having a different discussion, I think, but in doing so you've reached the point.

 

Its not about the merits (or not) of selling Keane. Its the fact that because his margins are so much tighter, if he fucks up on one of his big signings, he can't just look at the next £20m player in the queue. I am not talking about individual transfer decisions really - mistakes have obviously been made and he accepts that will happen in those quotes. Its about how keenly those mistakes are felt due to big money, or lack of.

 

In fact, the sale of Keane could even reinforce the point that he is hamstrung (hehe) financially. He might be well aware that every £1m off his value is £1m off his summer budget, and have to act accordingly. Sell Keane and take less of a hit financially, and get that £20M player in the summer. Keep him and have to wheel and deal.

 

 

My point is in relation to this thread, he's moaning about money (which he was fully aware of when he came here. What he did in simialr circumstances against Barca and Real was the main reason we brought him here.) but he was given 20m for a player who he then decided to sell without replacing and having inferior replacements in the squad. With less room to make a mistake he then comfounded his error by not replacing Keane in the one area we're short of quality when we were on our first title challenge in years. Those were all his decisions and he clearly got them wrong, or tomorrows match would have a lot more riding on it.

[hamstrung]

My point is in relation to this thread, he's moaning about money (which he was fully aware of when he came here. What he did in simialr circumstances against Barca and Real was the main reason we brought him here.) but he was given 20m for a player who he then decided to sell without replacing and having inferior replacements in the squad. With less room to make a mistake he then comfounded his error by not replacing Keane in the one area we're short of quality when we were on our first title challenge in years. Those were all his decisions and he clearly got them wrong, or tomorrows match would have a lot more riding on it.

 

I think we're talking at crossed purposes.

 

Your initial reply was to my post about comments from Rafa which admitted he has/will make mistakes but suggesting he has less room for error due to finance.

 

You seem keane (snigger) to steer the conversation into a pro/Anti Rafa thing. There's more than enough of that on here already - so I'll not get involved.

[aws]

But in that case surely you either dont sell the signing you fucked up unless you know you can bring in a replacement? Especially as it's obvious that, while not worth 20m, Keane is twice the player that N'gog is now and far more likely to get you a goal than Kuyt.QUOTE]

 

The other side of that is do you disrupt the whole team to accomodate one player, leave him on the bench and take all the hassle that comes with from the supporters and the media or do you just cut loose and eliminate both problems?

 

Agreed. The decision to off-load Keane was the right one. He had become the story and a massive distraction to our title chase. Not bringing in additional cover was however a colossal risk.

 

I'm glad to see that the "2 + 2 - 3 = 7 and 7 is a massive number merchants" are still with us.

 

And if shankly is spinning in his grave at the moment it wouldn't be because we're chasing second but because his quotes are constantly being mis-used to undermine the trinity of players, supporters and manager.

Edited March 13, 2009 by aws

[Thants]

Good a see a healthy support on both sides. As stated earlier it's in our favour it's 5 years if he succeeds. If he doesnt and (any) new owners come in and replace him it will probably cost the price of Dossena to replace him.

I'd give him another season as a season with a fit, interested Torres a fitter Gerrard and a replacement for Keane. His team is growing together. I'm also interested to see if Barry comes and what he can bring to the team.

[Kevin D]

As someone who still believes in the manager's ability to win the title, I still think giving him 5 years would be the wrong way to go.

 

Considering the 16m we had to use to fuck Houllier off ( imagine what Rafa could have done with that) as well as his backroom staff, it would be very dangerous. I think even the most fanatical followers of Rafa would concede that there are sizeable questions against the man.

 

If he fails then we've once again shot ourselves in the foot and severly handicapped the next manager ( I'd imagine given the amount GH et al recieved that Rafa would command even more). It's the type of boardroom decision that would have serious ramifications for our future success.

[Cardie]

Depends, are those sizeable questions unique to one manager or do all managers have questions against them?

[JMARKH]

Exactly, It was annoying last week when the official line was bleating on about us being the top ranked european club. Whoever's name is on the trophy on may is the top ranked club for me. It's similiar to Benitez talking about scoring 119 goals last season, that's very nice, but what did we win Rafa?

 

Also, this defeatist attitude by Benitez,Reina et al. recently that's basically saying 'let's hide behind the excuse that Man Utd have spent more money than us, so we can't possiblY finish above them' is shameful. If the league was defined exclusively by how much money you spend, you could look at each club's finances and predict the league every season, but obviously it doesn't work like that. It's annoying to use Everton as an example but compare them to say Tottenham. The spending of both clubs is vastly different, but who would you bet on to finish higher? (and by quite a distance). It's how you spend it.

 

 

In regards to us, yes we haven't spent as much as Man Utd, but we have spent a fair amount and can anyone honestly say we've used it a lot of it wisely? For me, it comes down to would you trust Benitez with Man Utd's kind of money? Sorry, but I wouldn't.

 

No was about to make that point myself, even if he did have Ferguson's cash he would not win us the league.

It is not all about money it is tactics as well. No one can tell me that we didn't have a hope in hells chance of winning it, we were top by new year and the budget is not to blame for sub standard performances against teams who have spent a fraction of what we have, we have done well in the mini league against the top 4 and usually whoever wins that wins the premier league.

Our failings are down to the manager not be savvy enough to work out how to break down these average sides who come for a point, that is why we have not put up more of a fight, no other excuse will wash.

If Rafa isn't clever enough to compete on a slightly less budget then he is not the man for the job and should not be getting a contract.

He has had enough time and money to buy the creative winger or extra match winner who could make a difference in the kind of games we struggle with and when he did spend 20 million on someone he used every opportunity he could to undermine him, so he only has himself to blame for us rolling over to United and helping them sew up the league so early that they can now rest players in pursuit of a quadrupole.

[Catch22]

I've read it and the impression I got from it is that by their theory our wage bill corresponds pretty much with our league position (2nd at the time of the article I think), but Newcastle and Everton for example have proved that the theory doesn't really work more generally? According to their stats, Chelsea are the best team in the league, so I'm skeptical to be honest. If the theory worked, we should all pack up and go home now.

 

 

Simon Kuper had an article in the Saturday FT 2 weeks ago quoting an academic study which said that PL wage bill correlates 0.92 with final position.

 

That seems even higher than I thought it was but the general point is correct.

 

The chances of ourselves & Arse finishing 3rd/4th in whatever order & the Chavs & Mancs 1/2 or 2/1 are extremely high every year.

 

The media dont cover it as i) Ex-pros dont really understand & ii) It is bad PR for the PL.

 

But the principle of there not being free money available for any great length of time meams that the Betting markets can & will converge to that.

 

Hopefully the media will follow & then there will be an intelligent discussion about a salary cap.

[Kevin D]

Depends, are those sizeable questions unique to one manager or do all managers have questions against them?

 

They are unique to Rafa.

[Guest Kenny]

As someone who still believes in the manager's ability to win the title, I still think giving him 5 years would be the wrong way to go.

 

Considering the 16m we had to use to fuck Houllier off ( imagine what Rafa could have done with that) as well as his backroom staff, it would be very dangerous. I think even the most fanatical followers of Rafa would concede that there are sizeable questions against the man.

 

If he fails then we've once again shot ourselves in the foot and severly handicapped the next manager ( I'd imagine given the amount GH et al recieved that Rafa would command even more). It's the type of boardroom decision that would have serious ramifications for our future success.

 

nail on the head.

[El Rojo]

The £27m on Keane and Dossena was a debacle at a time when we really could have consolidated a promising position, but the 2002 Diouf/Diao/Cheyrou comparisons are a bit unfair, particularly given that he's already cut his losses with Keane.

 

However, Rafa - try as he might in his comments on Keane - can't and shouldn't be exempted from blame for his role in their recruitment.

 

I see absolutely nothing to gain in not giving him another season. We've the spine of a great team there. If we can bring in two top quality players and keep our number 8 and number 9 fit, we'll be in a much better position in 12 months time.

[Carra_is_legend]

As someone who still believes in the manager's ability to win the title, I still think giving him 5 years would be the wrong way to go.

 

Considering the 16m we had to use to fuck Houllier off ( imagine what Rafa could have done with that) as well as his backroom staff, it would be very dangerous. I think even the most fanatical followers of Rafa would concede that there are sizeable questions against the man.

 

If he fails then we've once again shot ourselves in the foot and severly handicapped the next manager ( I'd imagine given the amount GH et al recieved that Rafa would command even more). It's the type of boardroom decision that would have serious ramifications for our future success.

 

Can't disagree with that.

 

5 years is a long time for someone unproven in this league. If our ambition is to qualify for CL and going further in CL every season, 5 years doesn't matter. If we want the title, I don't think Rafa is the man and I think 5 years is a long long long time.

 

Unfortunately, I think the owners are more concerned about CL football and money so I'm not at all surprised he is getting a 5 year contract.

 

And I can't believe they are offering him one in the middle of the season.

 

In my opinion, 5 years is one massive mother fucking gamble. I just hope it pays off - otherwise, we could be going back 5 years quite easily.

[Whelan]

The £27m on Keane and Dossena was a debacle at a time when we really could have consolidated a promising position, but the 2002 Diouf/Diao/Cheyrou comparisons are a bit unfair, particularly given that he's already cut his losses with Keane.

 

However, Rafa - try as he might in his comments on Keane - can't and shouldn't be exempted from blame for his role in their recruitment.

 

I see absolutely nothing to gain in not giving him another season. We've the spine of a great team there. If we can bring in two top quality players and keep our number 8 and number 9 fit, we'll be in a much better position in 12 months time.

 

I think the reason Keane left was probably as simple as right player, right club and right offer. Tottenham were desperate and therfore they were going to make an offer at THAT moment that would not be made again, so we either take 2-3 million hit or carry on as normal and sell for 10 in the summer. Don't forget if Keane did not want to go, he could have come out and said so, I think he also wanted to make this deal.

 

We bought Keane on how good he was for Spurs but we sold him because he was poor for us! It was really sad, I think a lot of us were quite happy when we bought him.

[Cardie]

They are unique to Rafa.

 

So Benitez is the only manager with questions against any aspect of his management?

[Barrington Womble]

Thats true to an extent WR, but my key concern is the number of those woh want Rafa gone who have felt this way since 05/06. At a time when we'd won no5 and won the FA CUp and got 82 points in the league. In those days there really were no reasons to dislike him on footballing ground, except, the way we play.

 

There are several on here who feel that way and as RR says, dissapear when the goings good, only to suddenly reappear when things get bad.

 

But I have sreious misgivings about anyone who openly admits to wanting him gone 'for a few years' as it makes me suspicious of their motives, is it because they genuinley believe he is bad for us in terms of success, 82 points, FA cup win and CL win say it cant be cos of that, or something more like he's spanish and looks like a waiter ?

 

I assume this is a dig at me? You need to know the difference between not liking someone and wanting them gone. I realised Rafa was the bloke he was when he was playing footsie with Real Madrid the 1st time round before the 2 yanks were even on the scene. Now that doesn't stop him being a good manager, nor does it stop him being a manager who could win us the league, but it did show what type of a fella he is. I feel exactly the same about Steven Gerrard, however, Gerrard proves time and again what a great footballer he is and has learnt to keep his gob shut and not undermine the team (as he did back in December 2004 when he said we couldn't win the CL). Rafa on the other hand has failed to prove he can win the league and is continually rocking the boat and adding to the shite that's going on at Anfield. His fucked up personalty gets in the way of him doing his job - the fact I spotted his personality traits back in 2006 is hardly my fault. If Rafa shut his gob and got on with managing our team instead of attempting to sabbotage us continually for his own ends (see again another big game tomorrow and another Rafa story? I didn't notice him distracting everyone in the build up to a match against his beloved Madrid), then perhaps me and quite a few others would have a whole lot less to complain about.

[WaltonRed]

Good a see a healthy support on both sides. As stated earlier it's in our favour it's 5 years if he succeeds. If he doesnt and (any) new owners come in and replace him it will probably cost the price of Dossena to replace him.

I'd give him another season as a season with a fit, interested Torres a fitter Gerrard and a replacement for Keane. His team is growing together. I'm also interested to see if Barry comes and what he can bring to the team.

 

First off, with 5 years behind him he'll start fucking about again I reckon in all honesty.

 

As for this the last part sums it up, we dont need Barry, we didnt need him in the summer and we dont need him now.

 

He'll blow whatever money he gets on players we dont need I can see it now.

 

I'd rather sell a few and then bring in one than a few out, few in or blowing it all on a player we dont need.

[Chinandeler Bong]

This is becoming one of my pet hates. I understand people still back Benitez, in fact my Dad is one of them and he's sat and watched the same team as me, but there are some that will just defend him for everything. Yes, Keane was that 20m and we needed him cos we were obviously too reliant on two players to win us games and if either of them was out for a while we would be fucked. When he decided to let him go Torres had been in and out with injuries all season and it was painfully obviousl to everyone we were short of decent attackers. Now, while i think he deserved more of a chance to regain his form, i can understand if he thought Keane wasn't up to it. However, he was still clearly more of a goal threat than any of the other replacements for Torres and he still let him go knowing he wasn't bringing in a replacement. This is at a time when us fans were gearig up for our first title challenge in years.

 

I'm not sure how much money we'd have lost by sellig him in the summer but i'm sure i would have had sacrificed it to have had more attackign threat these last few months and maybe be within 5 point of the mancs. As it is we'll never know how close we would have been but, as i said before, no other team in the league would rather have Kuyt, Babel and N'gog than Keane when they're looking for goals.

 

As for all the other forwards he's signed, clearly he didn't think they were up to it or they would have featured more and would probably have stayed. Other teams have decent standard subs who dont fuck off the first chance they get to inferior teams. Maybe it's his man management? All i know for definate is we're at the end of his 5th year with a hunderd odd million spent and there's one quality attacker in our squad that he's signed. There is no real excuse for that. He cant blame money when it's been his decision to have £36m worth of defensice midfielders in the squad and he spent the summer trying to bring in an even more exspensive one.

 

 

Spot on that , he needs to stop hiding behind the money bollox and the comparisons with Utd spending power , of course they have more to spend because they have more income . . im getting sick of him constantly bringing this up to be honest , fuckin stop talking about it and sort it at the end of the season either way . . . Personally Im arsed about him staying now , He doesnt have the right mentality to win the PL , the CL yes but thats all well and good but the fans want the league more than ever , The Yanks need the CL more than anyone else does and the more we progress in that competition the safer the yanks are in their positions.

[Whelan]

First off, with 5 years behind him he'll start fucking about again I reckon in all honesty.

 

As for this the last part sums it up, we dont need Barry, we didnt need him in the summer and we dont need him now.

 

He'll blow whatever money he gets on players we dont need I can see it now.

 

I'd rather sell a few and then bring in one than a few out, few in or blowing it all on a player we dont need.

 

He would have been excellent for us, I think.

 

And as for the rest, you don't know! he might buy another Keane or he might buy another Torres!

[INTORRESTING]

I am pro Rafa and can see the positives and negatives of a 5 year deal. The main negative is for the fans as a league title may not arrive and if rafa is sacked then the payout will be astronomical and anyone new coming in will be met with a huge task imo as Rafa is quite unique.

 

However from a business point of view the CL is where the money is made and Rafa is the best so i don't think we will lose out financially over the 5 years, i think we may even win a couple of cl's in that 2 years. I am sure we will finish 3rd or 4th each year and that means the money will flow into the club. The owners know with Rafa that the big money will roll in but the fans want the title

[INTORRESTING]

He would have been excellent for us, I think.

 

And as for the rest, you don't know! he might buy another Keane or he might buy another Torres!

 

I think he would have been great aswell. The xabi return to form issue doesn't justify not buying Barry imo. Xabi has been exceptional but has it been enough, is his position always needed in the prem? I would like both here to be honest as long as it doesnt stop us getting the number one targets for the flanks and upfront

[Tom R]

 

Agreed. The decision to off-load Keane was the right one. He had become the story and a massive distraction to our title chase. Not bringing in additional cover was however a colossal risk.I'm glad to see that the "2 + 2 - 3 = 7 and 7 is a massive number merchants" are still with us.

 

And if shankly is spinning in his grave at the moment it wouldn't be because we're chasing second but because his quotes are constantly being mis-used to undermine the trinity of players, supporters and manager.

 

Well then it simply wasn't the right decision to let him go, was it?

 

Selling him was a massive mistake. Not replacing him was just massive mistake number 2.

[Whelan]

Spot on that , he needs to stop hiding behind the money bollox and the comparisons with Utd spending power , of course they have more to spend because they have more income . . im getting sick of him constantly bringing this up to be honest , fuckin stop talking about it and sort it at the end of the season either way . . . Personally Im arsed about him staying now , He doesnt have the right mentality to win the PL , the CL yes but thats all well and good but the fans want the league more than ever , The Yanks need the CL more than anyone else does and the more we progress in that competition the safer the yanks are in their positions.

 

I love that quote, I really do. I agree we want the league, I agree it should be a priority, but, come on! Are we that blase' about the champions league already?

 

In essence you're saying Man U do have more money but he should shut up and win the league?

 

Can you not see that your expectations may be a bit unfair considering what you, yourself have just acknowledge?

[Roy Hobbs]

This spending bollocks excuse with the Mancs is becoming an embarrasment to be honest.

 

Just heard Reina on SSN saying the same thing, coming after Carra the other day.

 

Anyone think Rafa has been briefing the players?

 

Why shouldn't they talk about it. It's real.