Kicking off in Northern Ireland again?

[paddyberger15]

I have never ever quite got the troubles, and don't think I ever will.

 

Its fairly straightforward. Just Google the first and second Irish Land Acts and the Church Disestablishment Act and that should give you a basic idea of why Ireland has been fighting for what is theirs for over 150 years.

Edited March 9, 2009 by paddyberger15
poor spelling

[Mendoza]

BBC NEWS | Northern Ireland | Police officer shot dead in town

 

He's dead.

[JBarnes]

http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

 

Confirmed now

[cbk]

I have never ever quite got the troubles, and don't think I ever will.

 

me neither mate. Well I do and I dont.

 

I understand the reasons behind it, I'm Scottish and would like Scotland to be independent of Britain but couldnt imagine bombing & shooting innocent people to get it.

 

Surely if a majority of people in NI wanted to be part or Ireland they would be allowed. Britain gains absolutely nothing from having NI.

[Section_31]

me neither mate. Well I do and I dont.

 

I understand the reasons behind it, I'm Scottish and would like Scotland to be independent of Britain but couldnt imagine bombing & shooting innocent people to get it.

 

Surely if a majority of people in NI wanted to be part or Ireland they would be allowed. Britain gains absolutely nothing from having NI.

 

Most of the people who live there don't want to be part of Ireland though, that's the reason the troops originally went in if I remember right, because the Protestants were going on the rampage and killing Catholics, whom they outnumber by some distance.

 

If it was as simple as the people of Northern Ireland wanting independence I'm sure that'd be the case by now, besides which I personally think devolution has started it down that path anyway - which I think the likes of McGuiness is clever enough to know. It may not become part of Ireland, but I doubt it will be part of the UK 20 years from now, neither will Scotland for that matter IMO.

[Liverpool lad]

Sam Harris - End of Faith

Christopher Hitchens - God is not great (and how religion poisons everything)

 

Cheers, my rep guns are dry now

[dennis tooth]

Most of the people who live there don't want to be part of Ireland though, that's the reason the troops originally went in if I remember right, because the Protestants were going on the rampage and killing Catholics, whom they outnumber by some distance.

 

If it was as simple as the people of Northern Ireland wanting independence I'm sure that'd be the case by now, besides which I personally think devolution has started it down that path anyway - which I think the likes of McGuiness is clever enough to know. It may not become part of Ireland, but I doubt it will be part of the UK 20 years from now, neither will Scotland for that matter IMO.

 

Yeah, most cats just wanna talk jive but they ain't stepping correct. Ther're style's all messed up don't tilt no brims down that path.

[WaltonRed]

Most of the people who live there don't want to be part of Ireland though, that's the reason the troops originally went in if I remember right, because the Protestants were going on the rampage and killing Catholics, whom they outnumber by some distance.

 

If it was as simple as the people of Northern Ireland wanting independence I'm sure that'd be the case by now, besides which I personally think devolution has started it down that path anyway - which I think the likes of McGuiness is clever enough to know. It may not become part of Ireland, but I doubt it will be part of the UK 20 years from now, neither will Scotland for that matter IMO.

 

I think Scotland will be part of the UK in twenty years

[lfcwonderboy1]

from what im beain told from people from northen ireland this is only the start and wil get alot worse.

[Cath]

The British part of me feels ashamed when I think about the crimes against the Irish carried out in the name of the British, the small Irish part of me feels ashamed when I think about what has been done in Britain in the name of the "Irish". And all of me feels angry and disgusted that the real British and Irish people would never want any of this to happen.

On the head. Good post RR.

 

What I don't get is why now? What's the catalyst? There's obviously been some shit kicking off recently which hasn't made it into our press but why the escalation now?

[JohnnyH]

On the head. Good post RR.

 

What I don't get is why now? What's the catalyst? There's obviously been some shit kicking off recently which hasn't made it into our press but why the escalation now?

 

The problem Cath is that the only way the full threat of the Republicans will be gone is when the 6 counties in the North are given back to the Republic and there is a united Ireland again. The RIRA and the CIRA see it that people have been sitting on their hands for 10 years now and nothing is happening. From what I have heard it has been almost a daily struggle for certain members of Sinn Fein to try and convince these people that the gun should now be out of Irish politics. The dissidents however do not believe this and the likes of Adams and McGuinness have been warning for a while now that these types of actions were just around the corner. This whole thing is still salvageable if we can track down the dissidents now. However, my big fear is that the agenda driven people will immediately try and use this as a stick to beat Adams and McGuinness, despite them having no control over the situation, and actually been the only reason this didn’t happen earlier. If the Sinn Fein leadership is used as a scapegoat and they are ostracised by the political community then the main IRA will see no reason to continue with the ceasefire as the political means are gone, and we will be back in the 1980s again. It is imperative that these attacks are seen for what they are – a small group of dissidents trying to cause mayhem. Democracy and political means must win the day and the people who would be happy to see the gun back in the North must not be allowed light this powder keg.

 

Of course there is still, and always will be, a significant divide in the North as a result of all the plantation by the British Government where they used mainly Scottish and put them in Ireland basically as cannon fodder so that a couple of hundred years down the line these people could rightly say that they are Irish/British as they have been living there for centuries and have as much a right to the land as the original Irish. The way the Unionist side was used by their Government is quite shocking. What that means though is that for all intents and purposes it will never be over as there will never be a massive majority who want to stay with Britain or be re-united with the Republic. If there was a united Ireland then the Loyalist paramilitaries will simply push up their campaigns in the North and, no doubt, attack Dublin also.

 

I think the last 10 years was as good as it was ever going to get to be honest. I just hope we can get back to that quickly.

[Guest ian garro]

The problem Cath is that the only way the full threat of the Republicans will be gone is when the 6 counties in the North are given back to the Republic and there is a united Ireland again. The RIRA and the CIRA see it that people have been sitting on their hands for 10 years now and nothing is happening. From what I have heard it has been almost a daily struggle for certain members of Sinn Fein to try and convince these people that the gun should now be out of Irish politics. The dissidents however do not believe this and the likes of Adams and McGuinness have been warning for a while now that these types of actions were just around the corner. This whole thing is still salvageable if we can track down the dissidents now. However, my big fear is that the agenda driven people will immediately try and use this as a stick to beat Adams and McGuinness, despite them having no control over the situation, and actually been the only reason this didn’t happen earlier. If the Sinn Fein leadership is used as a scapegoat and they are ostracised by the political community then the main IRA will see no reason to continue with the ceasefire as the political means are gone, and we will be back in the 1980s again. It is imperative that these attacks are seen for what they are – a small group of dissidents trying to cause mayhem. Democracy and political means must win the day and the people who would be happy to see the gun back in the North must not be allowed light this powder keg.

 

Of course there is still, and always will be, a significant divide in the North as a result of all the plantation by the British Government where they used mainly Scottish and put them in Ireland basically as cannon fodder so that a couple of hundred years down the line these people could rightly say that they are Irish/British as they have been living there for centuries and have as much a right to the land as the original Irish. The way the Unionist side was used by their Government is quite shocking. What that means though is that for all intents and purposes it will never be over as there will never be a massive majority who want to stay with Britain or be re-united with the Republic. If there was a united Ireland then the Loyalist paramilitaries will simply push up their campaigns in the North and, no doubt, attack Dublin also.

 

I think the last 10 years was as good as it was ever going to get to be honest. I just hope we can get back to that quickly.

 

All out of rep unfortunately, but really enjoyed your posts on this thread mate.

[mattyq]

I'm not particularly up with all the history but i didn't the original scotti tribe come from Ireland and take Scotland from the Picts?

There's been so much movement of the constituent peoples of the British Isles as to make the Plantation thing a red herring imo.

[aws]

On the head. Good post RR.

 

What I don't get is why now? What's the catalyst? There's obviously been some shit kicking off recently which hasn't made it into our press but why the escalation now?

 

This is the best tactical time to start again - british army completely over-stretched and the peace process seen by many as stalling/leading nowhere.

[Section_31]

A lot of people commented last week on how easy it was for the custard girl to get at Mandelson, given his past role as NI Secretary. That kind of incident, although unlikely to have made a difference to plans that have probably been drawn up for some time, will certainly encourage those behind the attacks.

 

If Fathers for Justice were armed, half the Government would be dead by now. Not that that would neccessarily be a bad thing.

[Gods back]

2 arrested this afternoon.1 of them only 17.

 

Hang the bastards.

[Stu Monty]

The troubles? Always find this term to be one of those coy little phrases we use to try and kid oursleves about what is actually happening.

 

Troubles.

Freindly fire.

Heavy activity.

Busy day.

Etc.

 

Can't remember which comedian it is that does a bit on this where he's talking about a bloke getting home after a day in Iraq: "Phew, busy day out there today. Busy, busy, busy. 27 killed in a market place, the new PM shot and cluster bombs falling on the school. Man...busy. So busy it's almost as if there's a fucking WAR going on!"

[HurdyGurdyMan]

As a person growing up in the 70's & 80's I try to see things from both sides(not easy) but a man once said to me(about 1988) that they hate the British so much they always took the social welfare that we offered to them that they would never have recieved from the Republic. The whole thing is sad. I hope the Troubles never return.

[WaltonRed]

Its a woeful situation.

 

I can see both sides of the arguement and sadly there is no concrete solution.

 

There will always be loons who try to de-rail the process.

[JBarnes]

As a person growing up in the 70's & 80's I try to see things from both sides(not easy) but a man once said to me(about 1988) that they hate the British so much they always took the social welfare that we offered to them that they would never have recieved from the Republic. The whole thing is sad. I hope the Troubles never return.

 

Sorry HGM but I hate those comments from the British - you took this that and the other off us and you weren't complaining. I'm N. Irish, from a split family with very open views on the Ireland but rememeber the English took what wasn't theirs in the first place so the least they could do was give a bit of fucking welfare!

[HurdyGurdyMan]

Sorry HGM but I hate those comments from the British - you took this that and the other off us and you weren't complaining. I'm N. Irish, from a split family with very open views on the Ireland but rememeber the English took what wasn't theirs in the first place so the least they could do was give a bit of fucking welfare!

 

In some ways I agree with you but in some other ways I don't. Republicans(& Loyalists of course) took every penny that they could drag out of the British welfare state. If It was me(hypothetically) I wouldn't take a bean off someone that I despised. They did. Thats all I was pointing out.

[Guest ShoePiss]

In some ways I agree with you but in some other ways I don't. Republicans(& Loyalists of course) took every penny that they could drag out of the British welfare state. If It was me(hypothetically) I wouldn't take a bean off someone that I despised. They did. Thats all I was pointing out.

 

I'm sure it could be easily justified by them saying it helps their cause, makes it harder for the British Government by being a drain on resources.

 

You are of course confusing these people (the terrorists, not Republicans in general) with morals and a sense of pride though, people who believe killing kids out shopping on a Saturday afternoon is ok aren't going to mull over the moral aspect of receiving welfare from a governing power they don't believe should be there.

[3 Colours Red]

I feel the biggest danger is someone from the loyalist side with the mistaken belief it is their duty to retaliate. Small numbers of people can soon polarise two communities in this way..

[chris71]

Living in the south of Ireland in Cork it seems a world away from what is happening in the North. Even though it's only a couple of hundred miles away I can't comprehend the hatred that exists between the two communities. Where I work there is a near 50/50 split of Catholic and Protestant and since these killings have happened I haven't heard one conversation about them it's as if people don't want to know about it.

[Section_31]

I feel the biggest danger is someone from the loyalist side with the mistaken belief it is their duty to retaliate. Small numbers of people can soon polarise two communities in this way..

 

I suppose it comes down to how much people don't want to go back to that way of life.

 

These organisations will never reach the strength they had in the past without the support of a great deal of people, whether that support be active or passive.

 

If people prefer the life they've got now to the one they had in the 80s and early 90s, then they can take a stand against it and get behind theor political leaders. It's only when the leaders lose mainstrem support, rather than that of the disgruntled few, that Northern Ireland will be dagged back into the mire.