One Moment

[Brownie]

Come on Ian, if we've had debates about substitutions it's been about things i could at least argue for. The worst decision was the sticking to 451 at Stoke. I thought that was wrong but could at least see why he might have wanted to keep it at 451 (keep Stevie up the pitch which nearly won us the game), but can you honestly say you think he swapped those 2 payers tonight to win us the game? If so you must think he has the tactical nous of Rashid.

 

Robbie Keane is being forced out, hasn't been in form and was behind N'Gog at the weekend yet you seriously think Rafa would want to take off his best player, top scorer, captain and our onl real threat of a goal left on the pitch for him with 5 minutes to go to win a game?

 

If someone can offer me an explantion then fine, but "he was a bit tired" doesn't wash with me. It was some fucking message Rafa sent out.

 

I agree about the substitution. I also think at times he's made decisions that make no logical sense yet you've argued that it does because of a difference in opinion; that's the point. Just because you now think it, doesn't mean it's right remember.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Is it Rafa's fault Lucas tripped Koumas in the penalty area? Because I felt we looked comfortable till that incident. Our problem is not killing off games by taking our chances. We have a far bigger game on Sunday, he was right to take Gerrard and Torres off. And he was right to rest Alonso.

 

Tonight was really gutting because the team did not take their chances to kill the game off.

 

The Chief needs to get his act together, I wouldn't play Lucas again this season. Get him to work on his tackling and improve that side of his game, he gives away too many silly fouls.

 

It is not over, it is only the end of January, we are normally at least out of the race by this time, we are still in the mix. Let's move on guys and focus on Chelsea. Your only as good as your last game. And we need to improve on ours starting Sunday.

[laddo]

Gerrard was taken off? Yeah well I suppose playing with 12 players on the pitch would have got us into trouble.

 

Alternatively, take off any of Lucas, Arbeloa, Aurelio or even Masch and GO FOR IT. Just like Bruce did, just like Ferguson does and just like Benitez himself was early in the season, withdrawing fullbacks and going for the win against Boro and Wigan... Those were the days my friend.

[Anny Road]

I wouldn't play Lucas again this season. Get him to work on his tackling and improve that side of his game, he gives away too many silly fouls.

 

.

Are you taking the piss mate. This is a well paid premiership footballer former Brazil player of the year.

Are you suggesting we say, never mind Lucas you go over thier with Sami and practice tackling.

If he is not up to it, which he clearly is not (under rafa)

Get him ogone.

[derykw]

Is it Rafa's fault Lucas tripped Koumas in the penalty area? Because I felt we looked comfortable till that incident. Our problem is not killing off games by taking our chances. We have a far bigger game on Sunday, he was right to take Gerrard and Torres off. And he was right to rest Alonso.

 

Tonight was really gutting because the team did not take their chances to kill the game off.

 

The Chief needs to get his act together, I wouldn't play Lucas again this season. Get him to work on his tackling and improve that side of his game, he gives away too many silly fouls.

 

It is not over, it is only the end of January, we are normally at least out of the race by this time, we are still in the mix. Let's move on guys and focus on Chelsea. Your only as good as your last game. And we need to improve on ours starting Sunday.

 

 

 

Why is the Chelsea game more important than tonights? Every game is important, every game must be treated as a must win. If we had beaten all the dross that we`ve drawn with recently we could have probably have afforded to lose the Chelsea match anyway.

[Croque Monsieur]

Is it Rafa's fault Lucas tripped Koumas in the penalty area? Because I felt we looked comfortable till that incident. Our problem is not killing off games by taking our chances. We have a far bigger game on Sunday, he was right to take Gerrard and Torres off. And he was right to rest Alonso.

 

Tonight was really gutting because the team did not take their chances to kill the game off.

 

The Chief needs to get his act together, I wouldn't play Lucas again this season. Get him to work on his tackling and improve that side of his game, he gives away too many silly fouls.

 

It is not over, it is only the end of January, we are normally at least out of the race by this time, we are still in the mix. Let's move on guys and focus on Chelsea. Your only as good as your last game. And we need to improve on ours starting Sunday.

 

You can bet your fucking mortgage Rafa will.

[loadsoftrophies]

Interview from Rafa tonight....

"The second half was a crazy game and when it is a crazy game you cannot control things."

 

When he was pressed as to what was the crazy element of the second half the Spaniard refused to comment.

 

There was a suggestion Wigan midfielder Michael Brown's over-physical treatment of opposite number Steven Gerrard had upset him but he refused to comment.

 

"No I am disappointed with a number of things but no, the Wigan approach I will not talk about them," he added.

 

"It has happened in the last three games. They have something in common I don't like. I know why but I cannot say anything.

 

"The players were okay. They were working very hard in the first half but the second half changed because it was crazy.

 

"I was talking with my players about what to do on the pitch but there are things that you cannot control."

 

 

That sentence stood out for me, maybe i'm just taking it up wrong but it hints at that the players aren't following his instructions anymore.

[snez1]

Why do you think he took Gerrard off snez?

 

Soemthing to do with the hierarchy who gave him Keane instead of Barry? Here, have your £20m striker on, but to accomodate him i'll have to take off Gerrard? To piss Keane off more by onl giving him 5 minutes when it's absaloutely neccassry?

 

I don't honestly know, but i know it wasn't done with any belief that it would win us the game. It was fucking shambolic and on another level to any other sub he's ever made.

 

Either way, i don't buy the "he was a bit tired" bullshit, he was dead on the pitch at Cardiff and Instanbul, would you have wanted your match winner off the field then? No, so why would you want him off the pitch when you HAVE to win to still have a shot at the title? I don't get it.

[Red Paul]

Soemthing to do with the hierarchy who gave him Keane instead of Barry? Here, have your £20m striker on, but to accomodate him i'll have to take off Gerrard? To piss Keane off more by onl giving him 5 minutes when it's absaloutely neccassry?

 

I don't honestly know, but i know it wasn't done with any belief that it would win us the game. It was fucking shambolic and on another level to any other sub he's ever made.

 

Either way, i don't buy the "he was a bit tired" bullshit, he was dead on the pitch at Cardiff and Instanbul, would you have wanted your match winner off the field then? No, so why would you want him off the pitch when you HAVE to win to still have a shot at the title? I don't get it.

 

A myth.

[philyhamann]

We must now beat Villa at home, Mancs away, Arsenal at home and Chelsea at home without slipping up against the lesser sides to stand a chance.

 

We'll finish third me thinks, some of our players and our manager are shit houses who hide or bottle it when the going gets tough. The reason we played so well last season was because the league had already gone and the pressure was off, once we're out of any real contendership we'll go back to playing some decent stuff.

[snez1]

I agree about the substitution. I also think at times he's made decisions that make no logical sense yet you've argued that it does because of a difference in opinion; that's the point. Just because you now think it, doesn't mean it's right remember.

 

I'd like to know a substitution on the level of this one Ian.

 

If there has been one and i argued for it then fair enough, i'm a hypocrit but i honestly don't think you'll find another decision on the level of this one. We HAD to win tonight, we had 5 minutes left and he took off our best player for a player he doesn't rate. That's not the same as leaving Keane on the bench at Stoke in my opinion (for example) because i can at least see he's thinking "well i dont think Keane will win us this game, where as Gerrard can from an advanced position" even if he was wrong.

[robslappa]

Why is the Chelsea game more important than tonights? Every game is important, every game must be treated as a must win. If we had beaten all the dross that we`ve drawn with recently we could have probably have afforded to lose the Chelsea match anyway.

 

Exactly. Tonight's game was more important because it was quite simply the next game. We had to win tonight because it potentially puts us 5 points behind the mancs if they beat Fulham at home which you would imagine they will.

 

Now we play Chelsea who are quite capable of beating us on Sunday regardless of their previous form. That said we are more than capable of beating them but the point still stands, if we had won tonight then there's less pressure on Sunday's game.

[The Tott]

Come on Ian, if we've had debates about substitutions it's been about things i could at least argue for. The worst decision was the sticking to 451 at Stoke. I thought that was wrong but could at least see why he might have wanted to keep it at 451 (keep Stevie up the pitch which nearly won us the game), but can you honestly say you think he swapped those 2 payers tonight to win us the game? If so you must think he has the tactical nous of Rashid.

 

Robbie Keane is being forced out, hasn't been in form and was behind N'Gog at the weekend yet you seriously think Rafa would want to take off his best player, top scorer, captain and our onl real threat of a goal left on the pitch for him with 5 minutes to go to win a game?

 

If someone can offer me an explantion then fine, but "he was a bit tired" doesn't wash with me. It was some fucking message Rafa sent out.

 

Snez mate your dead fuckin rite. Rafa is a cunt, he proved it 2nite. He put himself before the club and when we dont win the league i hope he gets whats coming to him.

[PaulMcC]

Soemthing to do with the hierarchy who gave him Keane instead of Barry? Here, have your £20m striker on, but to accomodate him i'll have to take off Gerrard? To piss Keane off more by onl giving him 5 minutes when it's absaloutely neccassry?

I don't honestly know, but i know it wasn't done with any belief that it would win us the game. It was fucking shambolic and on another level to any other sub he's ever made.

 

Either way, i don't buy the "he was a bit tired" bullshit, he was dead on the pitch at Cardiff and Instanbul, would you have wanted your match winner off the field then? No, so why would you want him off the pitch when you HAVE to win to still have a shot at the title? I don't get it.

 

I don't believe that. I think he genuinely thought he as tired.

 

I thought he was tired but didn't agree with the sub at all. Neither did it seem anyone around me agree with it.

[23_Carra_Gold]

Snez mate your dead fuckin rite. Rafa is a cunt, he proved it 2nite. He put himself before the club and when we dont win the league i hope he gets whats coming to him.

 

Fuck off.

 

Criticise Rafa if you want, I have. Call for his head if you wish, I have. But don't go around calling him a cunt. This is the man who gave you the best footballing night of the last twenty years in 2005. Rafa won't win us the league, but I'd have fucking bellwhiff supporters like yourself out before I had him out.

[snez1]

I don't believe that. I think he genuinely thought he as tired.

 

I thought he was tired but didn't agree with the sub at all. Neither did it seem anyone around me agree with it.

 

Fair enough mate, it's your opinion.

 

But tonight i believe Rafa did something major that wasn't, in his mind, in the best interests of the team. I honestly believe that and can't accept any explantion he offers. If Stevie or Rafa had come out and said he had a groin strain or something I'd have been fine with it, "tired" was bollocks.

[23_Carra_Gold]

Fair enough mate, it's your opinion.

 

But tonight i believe Rafa did something major that wasn't, in his mind, in the best interests of the team. I honestly believe that and can't accept any explantion he offers. If Stevie or Rafa had come out and said he had a groin strain or something I'd have been fine with it, "tired" was bollocks.

 

I honestly believe that Benitez is a proud man and would never behave in this way. He has always seemed a man of class and dignity. I would never see him as the man who would sacrifice the chance of winning to take a petty shot at the owners. I just don't see it.

[snez1]

I honestly believe that Benitez is a proud man and would never behave in this way. He has always seemed a man of class and dignity. I would never see him as the man who would sacrifice the chance of winning to take a petty shot at the owners. I just don't see it.

 

Neither did i untill a few hours ago.

[23_Carra_Gold]

Neither did i untill a few hours ago.

 

But think about it, how the fuck would them Yank cunts understand that? It wouldn't even register. Do you think they understand this game?

[benite]

"One moment" there,s been a few

Keane scroes twice against Bolton after Christmas (looked sharp and purposefull) Dropped two days later for the Newcastle game, Maybe in rafa,s mind "resting him" but Keane has never been the same sinse. Back in against Preston, misses a couple of good chances, dropped again against Stoke, in again against everton and looks out of his depth playing up with nando. It looked like keane was told to stay up top to occupy the two centre halves and let nando run the channels. Keane looked devoid of any idea,s and was completely lost in the game. dropped again then on Sunday. Utter bollox! Id say keane,s head is all over the place, and i dont really blame him for it. the only thing he really needs to do is shut his mouth when he,s been subbed, try and keep his head together and try and take his chances when they come, to at least try and get the supporters on his side.

Second moment, going in front against the blues and then completely bottling it. It just echoed a team that has,nt got the MENTAL strenght or sheer desire to win a game standing up man to man against any opposition. I hate to mention them, but if the mancs went one up against City with 20 mins to go they would,nt be passing balls sideways or backwards, would they? They,re tails would be up, and they,d go for that killer second goal. Ronaldo would be running at defenders with confidence and Rooney flying into tackles and battling all over the park. Thats the difference between us and them! thats why they,ll probably now equal number 18 and at this moment in time we look like we are on a very dangerous slippery road thats going backwards. It scares me to think of how the players felt when they just saw wigan equalise and then watch their most influential player, their captian, the one they look up too, the one they rely on, the one that drives this team forward....go off! and then to be replaced by a teamate who,s head, and mental state is unfortunately up his own arse at the moment! Where were their heads at that moment. What must they have thought of rafa as they walked off the park. Not only stevie but nando our two most dangerous and influential players subbed, and we are going into the straights of a FUCKING TITLE RUN IN. It just beggars belief, are we all wrong? in what we,ve been seeing in front of us these last few weeks?

I felt empty after the everton league game, and i didnt like the look of rafa in the tunnel press conference after the game, he looked a beaten and worn man, and after tonight......there,s just something not right, and im not sure if its reversable. Im not sure if i feel he has the players after tonight! what must stevie and carra be feeling right now. Do you think rafa can look them in the eye now, knowing his tactics and press conferences are partly causing this slump that we are going through, a slump that looks to be costing us one of the best opportunities we,ve had sinse, well i believe sinse we last won the title. I dont think we,ll ever get a better chance then we,ve had.

We are now in a postion where we are relying on them fucking up.....and hopefully us getting our game together enough, so that we are in a position to capitalise on any chances we might get. Yes we still have to go to they,re place, we still can reduce a deficit, but are we really man enough, man to a man to stand up to them in the face of the huge media anticipation that this game will generate, a manc crowd that would love to see us cripple in front of them, and a utd 11 going for the title with a finish line not too far away.

Im hurt, really hurting and have been for a few weeks. Does rafa really know what opportunity lies in front of him, and has been lying in front of him up untill the last few weeks, and if he does.....how can he justify his managing and thinking of the last few weeks.

Rafa has given me some many memorable moments and one of the best nights of my life that ill forever be gratefull for, a night ill be so proud in telling my kids about!

 

But im lost at the moment! and probably more worried about the state our club could end up in. I apologise if ive offended anybody, i dont think i have but i just needed to get this out of me.

[Kopite82]

I'm sorry to start a new thread but this is personally quite a big moment for me. I never thought i'd type this but tonight was the night i lost faith in the one man at our club i really believed in. Before the "i told you so's" start, it's not because he's been negative or because he plays Lucas every week, or because i've realised (like others have claimed this season) that he won't win us the title because of his tactics.

 

My faith is gone because of that substitution. There was no logical, tactical reason for it what so ever. Rafa was sending out a message. Taking off the best player he's got for a man he's got no belief in. Rafa's always been a stubborn fuck, but that was a huge "fuck you" to the fans tonight and i wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of stupid gesture about the whole Keane fiasco, like him saying "there you go, have your precious Keane on the pitch, i'll take off Gerrard". Whatever his reason, he's lost one fan at least tonight that always, always believed in and backed him regardless of whether i agreed with him.

 

The Premiership is over and as far as i'm concerned it's 18 titles each with United. Rafa will be off in the summer and Agger, and i'll bet a few more will go too. Our club's in a fucking mess and the one guy i trusted to always be there to help put it right has shown tonight he's not up for it and not up to it. Leave aside your personal squables when we're on the pitch Rafa, this club matters more than you, Ferguson, the press and whoever else. That substitution was symbolic and will have pissed off the players as much as the fans.

 

I've not been this low as a Liverpool fan before. Under GH in his horrible last 2 years i knew he was a lame duck and i didn't trust him any more, but this is different. I've maintained belief in Rafa all season and in 1 swift action tonight he's made it all evaporate.

 

I genuinely feel like crying and if that makes me a faggot then so be it, but tonight is one of the worst night's i've ever had as a Liverpool fan. I know i won't feel better in the morning and probably not for a long while.

 

I don't know where we go from here, really. Those cunts are still in charge and realistically, any other foreign investors will only want to rape us too. There are no stand out candidates to replace Rafa if (or when, as i believe) he goes in the summer, and even Nando doesn't look like he's up to it at the moment.

 

Tossed and blown indeed.

 

 

I feel your pain fella. My heart has been well and truly broken too. I've never felt like this before with a liverbird on my chest. Tactically he's just isn't right. We could probably make the CL semi finals and go far in most cup competitions every season but the league the one we all really want won't be back here while Rafa in charge.

 

Where do we go from here I don't think anyone know's? The owners don't really care, we have a manager we've lost belief in, the chief executive is sly and not to be trusted. I think I'll cry on Sunday win lose or draw just because it's the first time this season where I feel like the score line is irrelevant.

 

YNWA mate

[The Tott]

Fuck off.

 

Criticise Rafa if you want, I have. Call for his head if you wish, I have. But don't go around calling him a cunt. This is the man who gave you the best footballing night of the last twenty years in 2005. Rafa won't win us the league, but I'd have fucking bellwhiff supporters like yourself out before I had him out.

 

Mate if you dont agree with me thats fine say so but dont call me a fucking bellwhiff. Rafa is not the man too lead us to glory. Not a chance. His tenure has been obviously interrupted by the fuckin bullshit that has gone on at boardroom level but thats no excuse. We have a team capable of winning a premier league title no doubt about it. But he is a cunt. He puts his own agenda before the good of the team. He acts like cunts to players and has tried to force players out (succeeding and been unsuccesfull) where these players dont deserve it. Crouch and Finnan, 2 great players whom i loved were forced out of the club for no real reason (they hadnt been playing badly) Xabi one of our best players, someone who can influence as game as much as gerrard was practically forced to leave last summer for no reason what so ever. I thought the treatment of xabi was disgraceful although i only realised it after. It was totally unjust.

 

My opinion of him is that i think hes a cunt. End of. All good managers are cunts (look at the top 4 managers now along with Mourinho,Ancelotti Guardiola, No neill) you have to be a bit of a cunt to succed in the game but Rafa is a cunt in a different reason. And if you want me to explain myself further pm me because ive had a few drinks and wont be best able to do it now.

 

On a generel note tho i think its a bit out of order to go calling people bellwhiffs for expressing an opinion albeit a really strong one.

[The Tott]

"One moment" there,s been a few

Keane scroes twice against Bolton after Christmas (looked sharp and purposefull) Dropped two days later for the Newcastle game, Maybe in rafa,s mind "resting him" but Keane has never been the same sinse. Back in against Preston, misses a couple of good chances, dropped again against Stoke, in again against everton and looks out of his depth playing up with nando. It looked like keane was told to stay up top to occupy the two centre halves and let nando run the channels. Keane looked devoid of any idea,s and was completely lost in the game. dropped again then on Sunday. Utter bollox! Id say keane,s head is all over the place, and i dont really blame him for it. the only thing he really needs to do is shut his mouth when he,s been subbed, try and keep his head together and try and take his chances when they come, to at least try and get the supporters on his side.

Second moment, going in front against the blues and then completely bottling it. It just echoed a team that has,nt got the MENTAL strenght or sheer desire to win a game standing up man to man against any opposition. I hate to mention them, but if the mancs went one up against City with 20 mins to go they would,nt be passing balls sideways or backwards, would they? They,re tails would be up, and they,d go for that killer second goal. Ronaldo would be running at defenders with confidence and Rooney flying into tackles and battling all over the park. Thats the difference between us and them! thats why they,ll probably now equal number 18 and at this moment in time we look like we are on a very dangerous slippery road thats going backwards. It scares me to think of how the players felt when they just saw wigan equalise and then watch their most influential player, their captian, the one they look up too, the one they rely on, the one that drives this team forward....go off! and then to be replaced by a teamate who,s head, and mental state is unfortunately up his own arse at the moment! Where were their heads at that moment. What must they have thought of rafa as they walked off the park. Not only stevie but nando our two most dangerous and influential players subbed, and we are going into the straights of a FUCKING TITLE RUN IN. It just beggars belief, are we all wrong? in what we,ve been seeing in front of us these last few weeks?

I felt empty after the everton league game, and i didnt like the look of rafa in the tunnel press conference after the game, he looked a beaten and worn man, and after tonight......there,s just something not right, and im not sure if its reversable. Im not sure if i feel he has the players after tonight! what must stevie and carra be feeling right now. Do you think rafa can look them in the eye now, knowing his tactics and press conferences are partly causing this slump that we are going through, a slump that looks to be costing us one of the best opportunities we,ve had sinse, well i believe sinse we last won the title. I dont think we,ll ever get a better chance then we,ve had.

We are now in a postion where we are relying on them fucking up.....and hopefully us getting our game together enough, so that we are in a position to capitalise on any chances we might get. Yes we still have to go to they,re place, we still can reduce a deficit, but are we really man enough, man to a man to stand up to them in the face of the huge media anticipation that this game will generate, a manc crowd that would love to see us cripple in front of them, and a utd 11 going for the title with a finish line not too far away.

Im hurt, really hurting and have been for a few weeks. Does rafa really know what opportunity lies in front of him, and has been lying in front of him up untill the last few weeks, and if he does.....how can he justify his managing and thinking of the last few weeks.

Rafa has given me some many memorable moments and one of the best nights of my life that ill forever be gratefull for, a night ill be so proud in telling my kids about!

 

But im lost at the moment! and probably more worried about the state our club could end up in. I apologise if ive offended anybody, i dont think i have but i just needed to get this out of me.

Im with ya mate. Rafa has lost me for good. Hes shown things over the last 4 weeks or so that i cant and wont forgive. If he turns it all around i will ask forgiveness from every forumite individually but i cant see it happening, no way.

[23_Carra_Gold]

Mate if you dont agree with me thats fine say so but dont call me a fucking bellwhiff. Rafa is not the man too lead us to glory. Not a chance. His tenure has been obviously interrupted by the fuckin bullshit that has gone on at boardroom level but thats no excuse. We have a team capable of winning a premier league title no doubt about it. But he is a cunt. He puts his own agenda before the good of the team. He acts like cunts to players and has tried to force players out (succeeding and been unsuccesfull) where these players dont deserve it. Crouch and Finnan, 2 great players whom i loved were forced out of the club for no real reason (they hadnt been playing badly) Xabi one of our best players, someone who can influence as game as much as gerrard was practically forced to leave last summer for no reason what so ever. I thought the treatment of xabi was disgraceful although i only realised it after. It was totally unjust.

 

My opinion of him is that i think hes a cunt. End of. All good managers are cunts (look at the top 4 managers now along with Mourinho,Ancelotti Guardiola, No neill) you have to be a bit of a cunt to succed in the game but Rafa is a cunt in a different reason. And if you want me to explain myself further pm me because ive had a few drinks and wont be best able to do it now.

 

On a generel note tho i think its a bit out of order to go calling people bellwhiffs for expressing an opinion albeit a really strong one.

 

 

There is so much wrong with that post I don't even know where to begin.

 

1) We do not have a team capable of winning the Premier League. To do that you need to have more then 2 players capable of scoring regularly.

 

2) Benitez was right to ditch Finnan. He's struggling for fitness now and hasn't been a decent player since '07. Crouch left because he wasn't guaranteed a first team football as regualarly as he wished. Rafa was honest with him about it.

 

3) Yes Xabi was treated badly but I believe this was because Rafa thought him surplus to requirements and simply not good enough to improve our squad.

 

4) Proof that Rafa has put himself before the team? If that was true he would have sold Gerrard twice and not allowed him back when he u-turned.

 

5) All good managers are cunts? Shanklys a cunt? Paisleys a cunt? Fagans a cunt?

 

6) I have no interest in PMing you to discuss this. You're talking utter shite.

 

Even if the points I picked up on were true it still doesn't justify you calling him a cunt. You're as bad as the idiots who boo Lucas or the fools who leave ten minutes before the end. So if me calling you a bellwhiff offended you I apologise. I will instead say that you are totally out of order to call Benitez a cunt and are an element of our support who should be done away with.

[Faustus]

I've posted this before, but after the derby on Sunday, I met my grandad for a drink. This is a man who has seen Liverpool do everything, from rise to the 2nd division to become the best team in Europe, so as you can imagine, I listen to what he has to say. I'm not saying I agree with what he has to say all the time, but I at least listen to his opinion, which is the least he deserves. After the derby he said this in terms of the league:

 

"I think Rafa would rather lose it his way than win it any other way."

 

Unfortunately, I think that's correct.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Faustus