Perspective:

[Section_31]

could he not have brought babel on for torres so we could keep the same shape instead of changing to a more negative formation and inviting everton on?

 

Rafa's transfer policy has basically resulted in us not having the attacking players to do the job, other than Torres and Gerrard - and a much lesser extent Riera.

 

Babel is - as others have said - seemingly no longer arsed, Keane is a shell. There's nothig going forward.

 

Saying we should have taken Torres off is all well and good, but when your only other option is basically taking the wheels off the car then it's not an option really IMO.

 

You have to look at the kind of psychological edge this gives teams too. It'd be like us playing the Mancs at Old Trafford, them going one up, but then taking their front two off and moving Fletcher into a lone attacking role.

 

We'd be fucking SCREAMING to attack, they'd drop their heads and batten down. All you've got to do is keep launching the ball into the mixer and sooner or later you're going to get a half chance.

[Catch22]

i.e. there is more to football than having the best squad. Chelsea have been a mess tactically and team spirit wise since Mourinho left, and they also suffered when Abramovich foisted Ballack and Shevchenko into the team.

 

Team spirit, tactics, approach of the manager to the game are all very important criteria when assessing a title challenge and Benetiz is open to question on all of these issues. It is not a sin to do so, this is not RafaBenitez FC.

 

A good squad probably is the key element but its far from being the only one.

As such, with the start we made, I think we've blown a great opportunity.

 

 

Or the best squad team threw it away which left it with the 2nd best which didn't.

 

Every single PL has been won by one of the top 2 wage paying sides except '03-04 when the Chavs spent a fortune but hadn't yet got it together.

That year it was won by the 3rd highest

No-one has won it with the 4th but that is what our "supporters" demand.

 

Moreover our gap to 3rd is non-trivial... £15m pa or the same as our gap to Newc.

 

We would have to see collassal fuck-ups/bad luck at at least 2 & probably 3 teams above us & that has not come close to happening this year. (the Mancs are having an excellent season for a start)

 

We were no more in with a realictic chance than Arse were last year.

 

Of course Benitez is open to question but his record this decade surpasses anyone else on the planet in results from resources. Tenerife promotion over 3 subsequent CL sides, the best 3 years in Valencia's history & our best record in the most important compettion is an unmatched record of over-achivement; Moreover his previous 2 clubs collapsed as soon as left which is what i strongly suspect would happen to us so without a new ground, back to the Uefa Cup which at least might give Robbie a chance to look good

[Major Tom]

No i am not going to say that: Rafa is a more cautious manager.

 

However we are over 50% thru the season & have out-scored them but conceeded more.

It is patently obvious that the problem is not therefore Rafa's caution which would exhibit itself in less goals in our games.

 

That is a blatant misrepresentation of the stats in reality. Utd may have scored less than us so far this season, but I would wager they have remained scoreless of fewer occasions than us also..

 

And have we outscored them over a season during Rafa's reign? No would be my guess.

 

Utd are a far more attacking outfit than us at the moment. Fruitless to argue otherwise imo.

[JMARKH]

No i am not going to say that: Rafa is a more cautious manager.

 

However we are over 50% thru the season & have out-scored them but conceeded more.

It is patently obvious that the problem is not therefore Rafa's caution which would exhibit itself in less goals in our games.

 

We have dropped home points they haven't due to not keeping clean sheets whilst they took a point at Spurs with a defensive 0-0 but we went for 3 & got 0.

 

 

If we were 15 goals behind them but had conceeded 7/8 less then you could say that Rafa's caution was hindering us.

 

But given the goal output you can't.

 

Ironically you can criticise him for buying & then still playing Robbie keane who isn't a CL-level player but you seem strangely reluctant to do this.....

 

My take on the Keane deal is this, he's a good player, no way worth 20 million but he's proved he is a good player none the less, I thought if he was playing just off Torres in the Gerrard role and Gerrard was switched to were Kuyt was then it would improve the team maybe. Rafa hasn't tried this though and keane has found himself in and out the team, also just before Torres got his first hamstring injury there where little signs things were starting to click between them, I feel a bit sorry for keane as he just hasn't settled and I feel they are some of the reasons for this.

What I can't understand is why Rafa splashed out 20 million on someone who he clearly doesn't see as anything more of a peripheral figure, a lot of people say barry was the reason keane is getting the cold shoulder as he wanted to push that move through first but where would you see barry in our side? it is madness to think Rafa wanted to spend a combined 38 million on barry and keane yet not even contemplate improving the right side of midfield. It is clear that he had no intention of doing what I thought he would do with keane so it basically is 20 million down the toilet because it is obvious he will be gone in the summer, and we won't get anywhere near that back and people will still see the deficiencies in our side are on the right hand side of midfield. Lets just hope we get another spare 20 million to improve it.

[KevieG]

Or the best squad team threw it away which left it with the 2nd best which didn't.

 

Every single PL has been won by one of the top 2 wage paying sides except '03-04 when the Chavs spent a fortune but hadn't yet got it together.

That year it was won by the 3rd highest

No-one has won it with the 4th but that is what our "supporters" demand.

 

Moreover our gap to 3rd is non-trivial... £15m pa or the same as our gap to Newc.

 

We would have to see collassal fuck-ups/bad luck at at least 2 & probably 3 teams above us & that has not come close to happening this year. (the Mancs are having an excellent season for a start)

 

We were no more in with a realictic chance than Arse were last year.

 

Of course Benitez is open to question but his record this decade surpasses anyone else on the planet in results from resources. Tenerife promotion over 3 subsequent CL sides, the best 3 years in Valencia's history & our best record in the most important compettion is an unmatched record of over-achivement; Moreover his previous 2 clubs collapsed as soon as left which is what i strongly suspect would happen to us so without a new ground, back to the Uefa Cup which at least might give Robbie a chance to look good

 

Thats the posting equivalent of throwing your toys out of the pram. We were in a fantastic position, no if buts or maybe. We had a serious shot of the title if we fronted up and attacked a bunch of teams operating on a tenth of our budget. I couldn't really give a shit what Rafa did at Valencia, its nice for him to have done well there but his record here is what counts, ProRata or not.

 

Lets agree to disagree. You think winning a title is impossible without having the best squad with the highest wages. I don't.

[Brownie]

My take on the Keane deal is this, he's a good player, no way worth 20 million but he's proved he is a good player none the less, I thought if he was playing just off Torres in the Gerrard role and Gerrard was switched to were Kuyt was then it would improve the team maybe. Rafa hasn't tried this though and keane has found himself in and out the team, also just before Torres got his first hamstring injury there where little signs things were starting to click between them, I feel a bit sorry for keane as he just hasn't settled and I feel they are some of the reasons for this.

What I can't understand is why Rafa splashed out 20 million on someone who he clearly doesn't see as anything more of a peripheral figure, a lot of people say barry was the reason keane is getting the cold shoulder as he wanted to push that move through first but where would you see barry in our side? it is madness to think Rafa wanted to spend a combined 38 million on barry and keane yet not even contemplate improving the right side of midfield. It is clear that he had no intention of doing what I thought he would do with keane so it basically is 20 million down the toilet because it is obvious he will be gone in the summer, and we won't get anywhere near that back and people will still see the deficiencies in our side are on the right hand side of midfield. Lets just hope we get another spare 20 million to improve it.

 

That's what a lot of people were saying in the summer - the fact that Rafa was wanting to strengthen an area of the team which was already very strong.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Rafa tried to buy a centre half and another striker in the summer and just left the wide slots the same.

[JMARKH]

But it is decided over 38 games. You cant ignore the amazing results (Chavs away) & then change the bad ones.

Every team can do that & all be 15 pts better off (ie/ the Mancs are miles if they repeated last year results at Anfield & Highbury, Arse beat the Chavs & the Mancs at home but struggle against worse teams, the Chavs great away bad at home)

 

In order to win the League we would have to finish above Arse, Mancs & the Chavs by definition.

All of them have vastly higher footballing budgets than us & consequently at least 2 have much better squads.

 

That is how it works in football & to bring up our history is irrelevant unless you think Wolves ('50's) & Preston (1st double, 1st unbeaten) should also automatically be champions.

 

how do explain then repeated errors from a better team like we are to these average sides? that has nothing to do with finances, if rafa chooses to play lucas in midfield when gerrard is injured and leave alonso out that is tactics and very bad ones to, if rafa chooses not to bring on a 20 million striker at home to hull or away to stoke and leave a clogger up front that is bad tactics to, if Rafa chooses to bring on lucas for torres which enables everton to push forward as we have no outlet up front then that is bad tactics to. If rafa chooses to stick crouch on the wing against a team that got relegated that is baffling tactics to, If Rafa tells arbeloa not to go forward at home to Hull that is shocking tactics e.t.c nothing to do with finances, we could have had the league won had Rafa had been as positive as some of his rally crying members of the forum.

[JMARKH]

That's what a lot of people were saying in the summer - the fact that Rafa was wanting to strengthen an area of the team which was already very strong.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Rafa tried to buy a centre half and another striker in the summer and just left the wide slots the same.

 

Me to, I got it wrong over barry and alonso but sided with Rafa as that was what he wanted and I just thought a midfielder for a midfielder, I'm now glad alonso stayed, but even if deal had of happened I still felt that the right side was an area we would be improving, although I was thinking if gerrard is out there then sound but with that not being part of Rafa's plans it seems everyone was right and the same positions that needed improving last summer will be where we need to strengthen in the summer, lets hope we get it right this time.

[Catch22]

Thats the posting equivalent of throwing your toys out of the pram. We were in a fantastic position, no if buts or maybe. We had a serious shot of the title if we fronted up and attacked a bunch of teams operating on a tenth of our budget. I couldn't really give a shit what Rafa did at Valencia, its nice for him to have done well there but his record here is what counts, ProRata or not.

 

Lets agree to disagree. You think winning a title is impossible without having the best squad with the highest wages. I don't.

 

 

I think it is as close to impossible as make no difference from the 4th highest wages. That is not the same as saying you require the highest wages.

You obviously have a number where you think its impossible & that may be as high as 7th or 8th (can Fulham win the League?) or whatever & you may be right but dont misrepresent what i have said.

 

Rafa's record at Valencia is incredibly relevant- he had detractors there who all regret it now.

My fear is that most of his critics do not appreciate how far behind we are off the pitch & risk throwing away what is causing our out-performance & then seeing us collapse (Curbishley at Charlton)

 

We were never in a fantastic position. On Betfair,we were 3rd favourites & only briefly went 2nd after Newc away but still significantly behind the Mancs

[Catch22]

how do explain then repeated errors from a better team like we are to these average sides? that has nothing to do with finances, if rafa chooses to play lucas in midfield when gerrard is injured and leave alonso out that is tactics and very bad ones to, if rafa chooses not to bring on a 20 million striker at home to hull or away to stoke and leave a clogger up front that is bad tactics to, if Rafa chooses to bring on lucas for torres which enables everton to push forward as we have no outlet up front then that is bad tactics to. If rafa chooses to stick crouch on the wing against a team that got relegated that is baffling tactics to, If Rafa tells arbeloa not to go forward at home to Hull that is shocking tactics e.t.c nothing to do with finances, we could have had the league won had Rafa had been as positive as some of his rally crying members of the forum.

 

Alonso has to rest at somepoint. Our 4th CM is Lucas; the Mancs cost £17m & at the Chavs it is Deco on £100k+ a week so finances are completely important.

 

On his performances this season,not bringing on Keane was a good idea!

Should we have bought him? No

 

Crouch on the wing was a mistake but we have to gamble due to our limited reources & more pay off than not. 5 at the back Juve away more than makes up for it; Equally if he hadn't got his tactics absolutely spot on away at the Chavs we wouldn't have won there.

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating: With the 7th or 8th highest budget Rafa has given us the best record in the most important competition in Europe.

 

Every single manager,team & player makes errors in a season & to look for perfection is as utterly ridiculous as saying Gerrard is shit because he once misplaced a pass.

Rafsa over-achieves more than anyone else in football which suggests that overall he gets it right more than anyone else in football.

[Catch22]

My take on the Keane deal is this, he's a good player, no way worth 20 million but he's proved he is a good player none the less, I thought if he was playing just off Torres in the Gerrard role and Gerrard was switched to were Kuyt was then it would improve the team maybe. Rafa hasn't tried this though and keane has found himself in and out the team, also just before Torres got his first hamstring injury there where little signs things were starting to click between them, I feel a bit sorry for keane as he just hasn't settled and I feel they are some of the reasons for this.

What I can't understand is why Rafa splashed out 20 million on someone who he clearly doesn't see as anything more of a peripheral figure, a lot of people say barry was the reason keane is getting the cold shoulder as he wanted to push that move through first but where would you see barry in our side? it is madness to think Rafa wanted to spend a combined 38 million on barry and keane yet not even contemplate improving the right side of midfield. It is clear that he had no intention of doing what I thought he would do with keane so it basically is 20 million down the toilet because it is obvious he will be gone in the summer, and we won't get anywhere near that back and people will still see the deficiencies in our side are on the right hand side of midfield. Lets just hope we get another spare 20 million to improve it.

 

 

i have no problem with most of that analysis.

 

Keane was always out of his depth & disruptive to 4-2-3-1 & I am on record as saying that.

 

However I am also on record as saying we shouldn't have bought Crouch which turned out to be an excellent move.

 

The key now is not to be GH-stubborn over Keane: That means not playing him at all & flogging him immediatedly for as much as we can get; That limits the loss to hopefully £5/6m & we can move on.

The lack of logic from Rafa's critiucs is that he was actually accused of being stubborn by not playing Keane which is precisely the wrong way round.

He is not Lfc standard so lets not keep pretending he is

[JMARKH]

Alonso has to rest at somepoint. Our 4th CM is Lucas; the Mancs cost £17m & at the Chavs it is Deco on £100k+ a week so finances are completely important.

 

On his performances this season,not bringing on Keane was a good idea!

Should we have bought him? No

 

Crouch on the wing was a mistake but we have to gamble due to our limited reources & more pay off than not. 5 at the back Juve away more than makes up for it; Equally if he hadn't got his tactics absolutely spot on away at the Chavs we wouldn't have won there.

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating: With the 7th or 8th highest budget Rafa has given us the best record in the most important competition in Europe.

 

Every single manager,team & player makes errors in a season & to look for perfection is as utterly ridiculous as saying Gerrard is shit because he once misplaced a pass.

Rafsa over-achieves more than anyone else in football which suggests that overall he gets it right more than anyone else in football.

 

Rafa tends to make the same errors though, alonso doesn't need to rest so early one, wait till gerrard is back then rest him. Keane is a striker we needed a goal, I would have thought throwing a sriker on who scored 20 odd goals last year would be a good idea. No need to gamble with crouch when we had already destroyed reading 4-2 (carling cup) with a formula that worked. You can say 7th or 8th highest budget but he inherited carragher and gerrard two world class players that most teams would kill to have.