Perspective:

[JMARKH]

The "best chance in years" has come because of Rafa's good transfer work & the way he gets the best out of our players & got results against the Chavs & Mancs.

The only reason it exists is because of Rafa & his mindset.

 

The Mancs are current European champions (something we have only ever faced twice in teh PL), have got all their hard fixtures out of the way & haven't conceeed in 10 games or over 90 days by the time they next play (& it is defence not gung-ho that wins titles)

 

the only reason it might not exist is because of his mindset aka caution against average teams.

[EVO VIP BUNKER]

The fans only got nervous last night because the players shit themselves after going in front, and started passing the ball backwards. It then gets compounded by the subs, but prior to all that I thought the fans were behind the team and didn't get on their backs.

 

In other games it's a valid point, but the fans weren't to blame at all last night.

 

No not to blame Dave, but it transmitts to the pitch easily!

 

I always remember the cup final 89 Mcall had equalised twice then Rushie put us back in front, I was 21 and a nervous wreck and an auld fella next to me said "calm down lad, relax, if you get nervous, they get nervous!" always stuck with me, wonnder what he'd think nowadays????

[EVO VIP BUNKER]

I think the other factor is the way they deploy those players.

 

As a bitter mate said to me last night "A championship-winning team wouldn't take its best player off the pitch before the match is won."

 

Can't really disagree there.

 

If Ferguson took Rooney and Ronaldo off and went with John O Shea up front instead, then conceeded a goal - no doubt scum fans would disaprove too.

 

Except Torres was fucked for a good ten mins before he eventualy came off!

[Catch22]

We've spent a lot more cash than the teams who have made us look mediocre, catch 22 always bangs the finance drum as a perfect excuse for Rafa's tactical failures.

 

 

But it is decided over 38 games. You cant ignore the amazing results (Chavs away) & then change the bad ones.

Every team can do that & all be 15 pts better off (ie/ the Mancs are miles if they repeated last year results at Anfield & Highbury, Arse beat the Chavs & the Mancs at home but struggle against worse teams, the Chavs great away bad at home)

 

In order to win the League we would have to finish above Arse, Mancs & the Chavs by definition.

All of them have vastly higher footballing budgets than us & consequently at least 2 have much better squads.

 

That is how it works in football & to bring up our history is irrelevant unless you think Wolves ('50's) & Preston (1st double, 1st unbeaten) should also automatically be champions.

[Catch22]

the only reason it might not exist is because of his mindset aka caution against average teams.

 

You still haven't explained how we are so much more cautious than the Mancs but have scored more goals than them?

[JMARKH]

Ok so they've got a much better squad but we should be well clear?

 

How does that work? That requires us to massively outperform but by defintion taht cant be the expected case or its not an ooutperformance or them to massively underperform (& 10 clean sheets in a row, a joint record, is not that)

 

Your position, like so many who criticise Rafa (& that doesn't mean that he is immune nor perfect) doesn't stand up to logic.

 

beating the mediocre teams at Anfield that is how it works.

[Catch22]

Except Torres was fucked for a good ten mins before he eventualy came off!

 

 

Exactly. What if we'd kept him on & lost him for 2 months?

 

All the non-roation heads & the Yank contract problems forced Rafa to overplay Torres last season & we consequenlt & utterly predicatbly have lost him for a great deal of this.

 

I am still awaiting their "mea culpa"

[Catch22]

beating the mediocre teams at Anfield that is how it works.

 

If every team beat every team it should every time based upon squad level (which is based upon finance) then we would lose 6 times a year to the other top 3

 

So how did we win away at the Chavs or beat the Mancs at home?

[PaulMcC]

I don't see how Rafa was negative last night at all.

 

Keane was playing shit and Torres was tired.

[JMARKH]

You still haven't explained how we are so much more cautious than the Mancs but have scored more goals than them?

 

Overall united push more men forward, ferguson has always been known for attacking football and taking gambles, even the most ardent of rafa fan cannot say that whiskey beak is not known for wanting to swarm the oppositions box with bodies, we have seen it from united down the years and although we have scored more goals this year (mainly down to the newcastle game) we have drew more matches proving the point that united take more gambles in an attacking sense as they have won more.

[captainharris]

I totally agree with Rafa bringing Torres off and even said that he should've come off a little earlier. What I didn't agree with is Lucas being the person to come on (and all he did was give the ball away and make stupid fouls, pretty much the same as his contribution for the rest of the season too). It should have been either Mascherano (if we wanted to stifle the game) or Babel (to keep the same shape and formation and keep their back line busy).

 

It's happened now, we've lost two points... there's nothing we can do about it. The most annoying thing is the players coming out each week and saying "we'll learn from our mistakes".... yet we seem to be making the same ones over and over.

[memyselfandpie]

Damned if you do...

 

The diference between us and say, Arsenal, is the fact that we can usually see out a game. OK, so we didnt last night but these things happen. If we carried on looking for a second we may well have opened up like Arsenal have done a air few times and got caught anyway. The chances are that with more defensively minded players on, that we close up the space and see the game out.

 

It almost always works for us, and if it wasnt for a silly challenge and a great delivery, it would have worked again.

 

But youre damned if you don't.

[Barrington Womble]

I don't see how Rafa was negative last night at all.

 

Keane was playing shit and Torres was tired.

 

could he not have brought babel on for torres so we could keep the same shape instead of changing to a more negative formation and inviting everton on?

[PaulMcC]

could he not have brought babel on for torres so we could keep the same shape instead of changing to a more negative formation and inviting everton on?

 

I wouldn't have brought Babel on for Torres either. He's not bothered anymore.

 

I don't think rafa done anything wrong last night except start with Keane instead of Mascherano.

[Catch22]

Overall united push more men forward, ferguson has always been known for attacking football and taking gambles, even the most ardent of rafa fan cannot say that whiskey beak is not known for wanting to swarm the oppositions box with bodies, we have seen it from united down the years and although we have scored more goals this year (mainly down to the newcastle game) we have drew more matches proving the point that united take more gambles in an attacking sense as they have won more.

 

We got 5 in 1 game against Newc; they got 5 in 1 game against Stoke so that has nothing to do with it.

 

We have drawn games that we would have won with a better defense (ie/ last night, Hull at home) so your link doesnt make sense there either.

 

They have scored less & conceeded less but we are way more defensive? Sorry but that doesn't make sense however you dress it up.

[Barrington Womble]

I wouldn't have brought Babel on for Torres either. He's not bothered anymore.

 

I don't think rafa done anything wrong last night except start with Keane instead of Mascherano.

 

and if Rafa thinks that he shouldn't be on the bench.

 

Lucas is the last player I'd have brought on because

1. He's at his shittest when the game is fast and it was last night

2. He gives away stupid free kicks and it was clear in the latter stages that what Everton were looking for.

 

Would you then not have considered Masch instead of Lucas?

[KevieG]

Ok so they've got a much better squad but we should be well clear?

 

How does that work? That requires us to massively outperform but by defintion taht cant be the expected case or its not an ooutperformance or them to massively underperform (& 10 clean sheets in a row, a joint record, is not that)

 

Your position, like so many who criticise Rafa (& that doesn't mean that he is immune nor perfect) doesn't stand up to logic.

 

That just makes no sense.

 

By your "logic" Chelsea should have won the last 2 titles.

[JMARKH]

We got 5 in 1 game against Newc; they got 5 in 1 game against Stoke so that has nothing to do with it.

 

We have drawn games that we would have won with a better defense (ie/ last night, Hull at home) so your link doesnt make sense there either.

 

They have scored less & conceeded less but we are way more defensive? Sorry but that doesn't make sense however you dress it up.

 

Yes it does if you see dimensions of play and not just isolated stats besides the season isn't over, are you telling me that Rafa has more of an attacking philosophy than ferguson? if you are then that is deluded, Rafa would have settled for a nil nil at bolton yet they throw men forward and score.

[PaulMcC]

and if Rafa thinks that he shouldn't be on the bench.

 

Lucas is the last player I'd have brought on because

1. He's at his shittest when the game is fast and it was last night

2. He gives away stupid free kicks and it was clear in the latter stages that what Everton were looking for.

 

Would you then not have considered Masch instead of Lucas?

 

I think Lucas is a better passer so he came on to try keep the ball.

 

The players just didn't perform well enough imo. Never seen Hyypia lose so many headers as he did in the first half. It was weird.

[Barrington Womble]

I think Lucas is a better passer so he came on to try keep the ball.

 

The players just didn't perform well enough imo. Never seen Hyypia lose so many headers as he did in the first half. It was weird.

 

I agree we had many players off form last night 3 of the back 4, alonso, kuyt, keane and reira we're all below par to differing degrees. I just thought that change when we brought torres off seemed to make us play what almost became a 4-6-0 because we just dropped so deep and invited them on. I think if we'd had a better target and looked to pinch another goal we'd have prevented them pushing on quite so easily.

[Duncan Clench]

Yes it does if you see dimensions of play and not just isolated stats besides the season isn't over, are you telling me that Rafa has more of an attacking philosophy than ferguson? if you are then that is deluded, Rafa would have settled for a nil nil at bolton yet they throw men forward and score.

 

Is it Rafa and Ferguson or is it the players though? Yes, the sub of Torres was negative but I don't see that he had any better options. He's not just bringing on midfield for defence. Lucas comes on, Gerrard pushes on to replace Torres.

 

It just didn't work last night.

[05 Milan]

Torres was knackered, and just back from an injury he sustained late on in that game. An obvious decision.

[Catch22]

That just makes no sense.

 

By your "logic" Chelsea should have won the last 2 titles.

 

 

 

Yes i think they should have done. They threw it away due to the Translator's ego taking over ruining '06-07 & then getting rid of him at the wrong time ruining '07-'08

[Catch22]

Yes it does if you see dimensions of play and not just isolated stats besides the season isn't over, are you telling me that Rafa has more of an attacking philosophy than ferguson? if you are then that is deluded, Rafa would have settled for a nil nil at bolton yet they throw men forward and score.

 

 

No i am not going to say that: Rafa is a more cautious manager.

 

However we are over 50% thru the season & have out-scored them but conceeded more.

It is patently obvious that the problem is not therefore Rafa's caution which would exhibit itself in less goals in our games.

 

We have dropped home points they haven't due to not keeping clean sheets whilst they took a point at Spurs with a defensive 0-0 but we went for 3 & got 0.

 

 

If we were 15 goals behind them but had conceeded 7/8 less then you could say that Rafa's caution was hindering us.

 

But given the goal output you can't.

 

Ironically you can criticise him for buying & then still playing Robbie keane who isn't a CL-level player but you seem strangely reluctant to do this.....

[KevieG]

Yes i think they should have done. They threw it away due to the Translator's ego taking over ruining '06-07 & then getting rid of him at the wrong time ruining '07-'08

 

i.e. there is more to football than having the best squad. Chelsea have been a mess tactically and team spirit wise since Mourinho left, and they also suffered when Abramovich foisted Ballack and Shevchenko into the team.

 

Team spirit, tactics, approach of the manager to the game are all very important criteria when assessing a title challenge and Benetiz is open to question on all of these issues. It is not a sin to do so, this is not RafaBenitez FC.

 

A good squad probably is the key element but its far from being the only one.

As such, with the start we made, I think we've blown a great opportunity.