Personal Responsibility

[Duncan Clench]

The thing is though, we shouldn't need to do all of those things. Something is causing these problems in an underlying sense. The state is shifting to adapt all the time and try and plug the holes in the bucket, but it can't keep up - you're seeing this with the social worker issue.

 

One thing that's always fascinated me is that teenage pregnancies in Holland are some of the lowest, despite them having a far more liberal attitude to sex and porn, why's that?

 

French kids are surrounded by wine from the day they pop out their mother's hoop, yet they don't smash their towns up of a Saturday night.

 

There's an underlying issue, a childishness, and a poor attitude to things like this which needs to be gripped - somehow.

 

We shouldn't need to, but we clearly need to do something. We're flogging a dead horse by constantly trying to 'plug the holes' as you put it. It's just throwing good money after bad and probably a few more clichés too.

 

We can face facts that we're not going to get 'the good old days' back, but if kids can behave like human beings in public and respect their elders and all the other old-school mantras then there'll be a mutual respect in the community which can only benefit society itself.

 

I think your points about France and Holland only back it up. It's cool to get pissed and be an arsehole in this country. It's cool to get mashed too, if only because it's illegal. That's an attitude that will take a lifetime to change. We, as Brits, snigger when someone is being unreserved and extrovert. Whether that be a piss-head, junkie or a slut. That, unfortunately, positively reinforces that behaviour.

 

That's my take on it anyway. Will you buy my book?

[Unrighteous]

Back to litter...

 

When I was a kid and we where out my ma would always take any litter off us and put it into her pockets, then when we found a bin and she'd say "Find and Bin and Put it in" in jingle style. Even now when I have litter I'll sing it to myself.

 

Every few days I have to empty my coat pockets and bags of receipts and other shit I haven't dropped on the floor. Nothing annoys me more than seeing people telling their kids to litter because they can't be arsed taking the Sayers bag off them. Proper riles me.

 

 

I've had a few outbursts lately, concerning litter, like this fat bloke was eating some chips(quell surprise) and was standing next to a bin, but instead of taking one step and putting his little lobster pot tray in the bin, he tosses it across the little concrete/tree fixture right next to the fucking bin!

 

I turned, and said, "You're standing next to a fucking bin! It's not like taking the one step necessary would hurt you, you fat fucking cunt!"

 

A stood there glaring for a moment... I was having an off day, I guess.

 

I also had a little incident with a group of about 5 or 6 little emo/goths/whatevers whom were probably 13-14... Stood in a circle eating some Maccys in Liverpool one and when one of them tossed his rubbish over his shoulder, which nearly hit me, and I started yelling at him about that and respect of the city and its inhabitants, and how his fashion sense was killing his parents, etc.

[Section_31]

We shouldn't need to, but we clearly need to do something. We're flogging a dead horse by constantly trying to 'plug the holes' as you put it. It's just throwing good money after bad and probably a few more clichés too.

 

We can face facts that we're not going to get 'the good old days' back, but if kids can behave like human beings in public and respect their elders and all the other old-school mantras then there'll be a mutual respect in the community which can only benefit society itself.

 

I think your points about France and Holland only back it up. It's cool to get pissed and be an arsehole in this country. It's cool to get mashed too, if only because it's illegal. That's an attitude that will take a lifetime to change. We, as Brits, snigger when someone is being unreserved and extrovert. Whether that be a piss-head, junkie or a slut. That, unfortunately, positively reinforces that behaviour.

 

That's my take on it anyway. Will you buy my book?

 

Personally, although I think this will never happen, I think the media needs to be 'schooled' in the damage it does in the way it presents impressionable people with a view of the world.

Celebrity culture, 'sex sells' and all the rest of it have done enormous damage to young people in this country, IMHO, but I don't see how it could be stopped.

 

It also doesn't help when you see high-profile (yet none the less often talentless people) acting like twats and being seen to escape any punishment.

 

I also think reforms to the welfare state are necessary.

 

My cousins are a good example of how the state supports irresponsible behaviour. Both of them have been competing to have as many kids as possible for years.

When one drops a sprog, the other gets jealous of all the attention and baby clothes she gets, and literally within weeks she's pregnant again.

 

They've got nine kids between them, and neither of them have ever worked a day that I'm aware of.

 

Now when they start struggling with those kids, who picks up the slack? Teachers? Social Workers? The Police?

 

Maybe if they'd had to think 'I'd better not get knocked up before I've found a good husband or else I won't be able to pay the bills' some kind of self-regulation may have occurred.

 

It's a shame the heavy industry which once united working class communities is gone, I don't see any way of bringing it back unless we're prepared as a nation to pay more for our goods, until we are - those particular benefits will go to the likes of India and China - themselves enjoying their own golden age at the expense of our inner cities.

[Duncan Clench]

Well maybe that will be a plus point from the recession. That UK export are cheaper and once again it's economically viable to set up a manufacturing base in the UK. Primark are positively thriving on it!

[Duncan Clench]

New one for the Public Information Films (driving related again though):

 

Fog lights are for when it is foggy and you can't see much, not when it's raining or slightly fucking misty.

[Paulie Dangerously]

I've had a few outbursts lately, concerning litter, like this fat bloke was eating some chips(quell surprise) and was standing next to a bin, but instead of taking one step and putting his little lobster pot tray in the bin, he tosses it across the little concrete/tree fixture right next to the fucking bin!

 

I turned, and said, "You're standing next to a fucking bin! It's not like taking the one step necessary would hurt you, you fat fucking cunt!"

 

A stood there glaring for a moment... I was having an off day, I guess.

 

I also had a little incident with a group of about 5 or 6 little emo/goths/whatevers whom were probably 13-14... Stood in a circle eating some Maccys in Liverpool one and when one of them tossed his rubbish over his shoulder, which nearly hit me, and I started yelling at him about that and respect of the city and its inhabitants, and how his fashion sense was killing his parents, etc.

 

Thats the worst, when there's a fucking bin right next to them, or within 3 metres. My mate lived in a flat on Stanley Street and I was waiting for her to come out and a cab pulled up and 4 Irish fellas got off with Guitars etc (studio behind Stanley street was their destination I assume) they'd clearly come straight from JLA due to the duty free bags and cups of coffee they had

 

As they were unloading their gear onto the pavement one of them put his cup on my mates step, and then they started to walk down the alley, I went "Just gonna leave your coffee on my doorstep then are you lad?" (pretended it was my flat for effect) He said "There's nowhere else to put it" and I pointed out the bin on the other side of the empty road clearly in view and he begrudgingly came back, picked it up and put it in the bin. To which I replied "Nice one fella"

 

Gobshites

[dandyman]

I used to think that smacking was acceptable and necessary, but having moved away to a place where smacking has been banned for many years, I found that I was shocked to see it again when I returned to the UK. It seemed really barbaric and unnecessary. i don't mean to sound preachy or high-horsey, but thats how I saw it.

 

That may be because the smacking you saw may probably have been an emotional reaction to a child's behaviour, that is where it is undue and excessive, because at that point the parent has lost control.

 

On another note re standards, my Mum overheard someone at her local church talking, their family are professional benefits people by the way, and she says (3 kids by three different dads) about her 40yr old hubby, that he isn't going back to work now as he's worked hard enough.

 

Chuff me, 40 and retiring on benefits, with his paid for Motability car, it makes me boil whenever i see them, that my parents worked right up until retirement age, went without to provide for me and my sister, and there she is bold as brass telling everyone he isn't going back to work cos he's work long enough.

 

I really hate scumbag Britain, and the underclass who are dragging it down

[JohnnyH]

I've had a few outbursts lately, concerning litter, like this fat bloke was eating some chips(quell surprise) and was standing next to a bin, but instead of taking one step and putting his little lobster pot tray in the bin, he tosses it across the little concrete/tree fixture right next to the fucking bin!

 

I turned, and said, "You're standing next to a fucking bin! It's not like taking the one step necessary would hurt you, you fat fucking cunt!"

 

A stood there glaring for a moment... I was having an off day, I guess.

 

I also had a little incident with a group of about 5 or 6 little emo/goths/whatevers whom were probably 13-14... Stood in a circle eating some Maccys in Liverpool one and when one of them tossed his rubbish over his shoulder, which nearly hit me, and I started yelling at him about that and respect of the city and its inhabitants, and how his fashion sense was killing his parents, etc.

 

:D I'm guessing you may have lost them at that point...

 

I really hate seeing littering also. This is one case when I certainly blame the parents. It takes fuck all to hang on until you see a bin. The worst place I've lived for this was in Glasgow. People just throw stuff away on the street and no one bats an eyelid. However, when I lived in Austria and Sweden was the direct opposite. The pace was fuckin hoovered and it looked great.

[dandyman]

New one for the Public Information Films (driving related again though):

 

Fog lights are for when it is foggy and you can't see much, not when it's raining or slightly fucking misty.

 

And you car doesn't look cool with the front ones on, neither do those stupid fucking blue lights underneath, or that big drainpipe exhaust

[RedKnight]

Lance = overkill.

[Unrighteous]

Lance = overkill.

 

More like the anger of watching loads of littering daily, is funneled into a single outburst at some offender, really.

 

Walking for 10 minutes in the city centre usually gives me a vantage point of about 5-10 instances of littering...

 

All of which generally make my blood boil.

[Section_31]

More like the anger of watching loads of littering daily, is funneled into a single outburst at some offender, really.

 

Walking for 10 minutes in the city centre usually gives me a vantage point of about 5-10 instances of littering...

 

All of which generally make my blood boil.

 

I'm getting a Tackleberry vibe here.

 

[Stu Monty]

We have past the tipping point for cunts. There is no going back. The numbers are too great.

[Anubis]

I used to think that smacking was acceptable and necessary, but having moved away to a place where smacking has been banned for many years, I found that I was shocked to see it again when I returned to the UK. It seemed really barbaric and unnecessary. i don't mean to sound preachy or high-horsey, but thats how I saw it.

Compromise. Just smack the one who supports United.

[She Knows It]

It's difficult teaching kids to be be responsible when society as a whole is so quick to blame other people for their own misfortune. It maddens me. If a person slips on a spilt drink and hurts themselves, they sue the owner of the building for compensation. Whatever happened to looking where you're going? If I were a judge I'd throw it out and call them a greedy, clumsy twat.

 

Its the same with parents who think their kids are angels. These same ones that will go up to the school kicking off because a teacher has had the audacity to admonish their feral offspring. If my kids come home and tell me they've been in trouble at school, then they get into trouble at home too. Even if they complain they've been treated unfairly by their teacher, it holds no weight with me. They probably had it coming, but even in the event they were a victim of an injustice it teaches them the harsh lesson that life isn't always fair. Tough shit.

 

I've always drummed into my kids that it makes no difference how a person behaves towards them, they are still responsible for their own actions (or reactions). It's really difficult though when their heads are constantly being filled with notions of blame.

[Unrighteous]

It's difficult teaching kids to be be responsible when society as a whole is so quick to blame other people for their own misfortune. It maddens me. If a person slips on a spilt drink and hurts themselves, they sue the owner of the building for compensation. Whatever happened to looking where you're going? If I were a judge I'd throw it out and call them a greedy, clumsy twat.

 

Its the same with parents who think their kids are angels. These same ones that will go up to the school kicking off because a teacher has had the audacity to admonish their feral offspring. If my kids come home and tell me they've been in trouble at school, then they get into trouble at home too. Even if they complain they've been treated unfairly by their teacher, it holds no weight with me. They probably had it coming, but even in the event they were a victim of an injustice it teaches them the harsh lesson that life isn't always fair. Tough shit.

 

I've always drummed into my kids that it makes no difference how a person behaves towards them, they are still responsible for their own actions (or reactions). It's really difficult though when their heads are constantly being filled with notions of blame.

 

Amen, sister.

 

Preach it to the masses.

[melons]

Whatever happened to it???

 

I'm off work at the mo taking some days which are owed to me from last year, and have been subjected to daytime TV.

 

So far I've had to watch a news story talking about the amount of litter on Manchester's streets (apparently Greggs wrappers make up the bulk of it, no surprise there as its denizens are mostly comprised of Detroit trailer park material)

 

But some woman comes on saying 'Councils clean the litter up, and they're doing a good job but more street cleaners means more council tax.'

 

Now on This Morning Ed Balls is on (ha!) talking about the latest Baby P-related Social Services scandal in Doncaster.

 

They're pressing him on the subject and it's "oh, not enough social workers but we need to make we have best practice blah blah blah..."

 

I'm actually quite angry watching all this, because the assumption seems to be that people can go out and throw their shit all over the floor, and that the part of the equation which is failing is the state - which is apparently duty bound to come and mop your shit and Greggs wrappers up for you.

 

Also, all I'm hearing is 'Why didn't social workers do this this and that..."

 

Fair points, but what about the fucking parents????

 

There seems to be this expectancy that the State has to not only clean up our shit, but raise our kids now too - and if it doesn't then someone deserves to be hung drawn and quartered for it. We get this with all the obesity stuff as well, it's the state's role now to stop you killing yourself with profiteroles??? The fuck?

 

Newsflash - there will never, ever, be enough Police ,dietitians and Social Workers around to stop the country falling into the shit if individuals neglect their duty to themselves and their own kids.

Its not just down to the services though is it, yes there is personal responsibility, but also in years gone by there was community responsibility. People would notice things and chastise another persons child with no fear of come back, the same with social services, we're not quick to act, yes we'll phone and report, if we deem necessary, but not act. We are deferring responsibility. "well i phoned SS when i saw that kid getting what i consider a slap to much, so i've done my bit". Yes the adult is doing something wrong, and they are responsible for thier actions, but we are also responsible for allowing those actions.

 

 

When it comes to spanking/smacking then I think it needs to be done the right way, if it is done.

 

Absolutely no emotion.

 

"Right, today you threw all that rubbish on the ground. I understand that other people litter, but we are not other people and will show our city the proper respect and you know the consquences for doing that. You knew better and you have to understand that it is not acceptable."

 

*whack*

 

"Now, can we not do this again? I don't enjoy it any more than you do."

Past tense, to chastise a child it needs to be done there and then, otherwise when the kid gets punished for something that happened hours earlier then your a bit fucked if you think your doing the right thing. People let kids get away with it for fear of making a show of themselves in public. I like others have a disabled child, she was taught early on about acceptable behaviour, funnily enough, she has the "excuse" to be the average cuntish teenager, yet is one of the most polite 13 year olds you could meet.

 

I think the general rule is that if you are a decent person you'll have decent kids, whether you use the RiS route of not smacking or the Dandyman route of light smack to reinforce a telling off. Kids learn more from what you do the 99% of the time you aren't disciplining them, from watching how you interact with other people, live your life and behave in general.

 

If you are a twat and you smack, or a twat and use the naughty step your kids will be twats.

 

Oh, and I haven't got any kids so feel free to put me straight.

 

not bad,

 

 

who was the knob head last year who was a pet behaviour person and related it to bringing up children.

 

 

My cousins are a good example of how the state supports irresponsible behaviour. Both of them have been competing to have as many kids as possible for years.

When one drops a sprog, the other gets jealous of all the attention and baby clothes she gets, and literally within weeks she's pregnant again.

 

They've got nine kids between them, and neither of them have ever worked a day that I'm aware of.

 

Now when they start struggling with those kids, who picks up the slack? Teachers? Social Workers? The Police?

 

Maybe if they'd had to think 'I'd better not get knocked up before I've found a good husband or else I won't be able to pay the bills' some kind of self-regulation may have occurred.

This is where the stigma of single parent teen age pregnancies could do with being brought back, or enforced sterilisation, fuck human rights, thats taking the piss. :telloff:

 

I really hate scumbag Britain, and the underclass who are dragging it down

 

Generalising, it isnt a choice all people make to be in this social classification, most are there through no choice of their own, i myself meet this bracket, i also have a cousin in this bracket, single parent raising 4 boys, 4 fantastic well mannered boys, eldest is doing joinery in college. She works a 50 hour week, but its still not enough and has tax credit top ups.

 

 

Its the same with parents who think their kids are angels. These same ones that will go up to the school kicking off because a teacher has had the audacity to admonish their feral offspring. If my kids come home and tell me they've been in trouble at school, then they get into trouble at home too. Even if they complain they've been treated unfairly by their teacher, it holds no weight with me. They probably had it coming, but even in the event they were a victim of an injustice it teaches them the harsh lesson that life isn't always fair. Tough shit.

Summed up in one paragraph.

 

 

We condemn behaviour that we may have grown up with, yet that made us who we are, being chastised, grounded, going without, made to do something we didn't like as punishment, possibly to excess. Yes these are bad things, but it gave us a scale of what to expect for what ever naughtiness we did. I knew that not having the dishes done by 6 meant i would be out chopping logs for the night... i knew if i got a note saying homework hadnt been completed i would have no pocket money and thus have a 26 mile round trip bike ride the weekend if i wanted to go to my nan's.

 

As far as i am concerned, some kids have it far too soft.

[WaltonRed]

Cunts breed cunts so unless you start sterilising people its over.

 

There is no deterrent for people, whether its a little kid lashing his crisp bag on the floor or people comitting serious crimes like rape and murder.

 

When I was little the amount of times my Nan chased after people on the road with the litter they had just dropped to tell them to bin it was immense.

 

Who'd do that now? She would probably be pushed under a bus for doing that these days.

[dandyman]

 

Generalising, it isnt a choice all people make to be in this social classification, most are there through no choice of their own, i myself meet this bracket, i also have a cousin in this bracket, single parent raising 4 boys, 4 fantastic well mannered boys, eldest is doing joinery in college. She works a 50 hour week, but its still not enough and has tax credit top ups.

 

yes the difference is you clearly give a crap - whilst it might come across a generalising, I see the underclass as those who choose not to work, because they can't be arsed, and we make it too easy for them - hence, why I referred to them choosing not to work when they reach 40, because they feel they've "worked for long enough".

 

Without being patronising I have the utmost respect for anyone who brings up a family on their own, and balances this with going out to work - because they have some self respect. The easy option would be to sit on your arse and reap in the state benefits.

 

 

As far as i am concerned, some kids have it far too soft.

Agreed

[Section_31]

Cunts breed cunts so unless you start sterilising people its over.

 

There is no deterrent for people, whether its a little kid lashing his crisp bag on the floor or people comitting serious crimes like rape and murder.

 

When I was little the amount of times my Nan chased after people on the road with the litter they had just dropped to tell them to bin it was immense.

 

Who'd do that now? She would probably be pushed under a bus for doing that these days.

 

As I say though, It's a shame we have to think like that when so many other cultures are able to regulate their own behaviour through some kind of value system.

 

Maybe we need to bring back a sense of 'shame' to the masses? Don't know how like.

[Manny]

It's difficult teaching kids to be be responsible when society as a whole is so quick to blame other people for their own misfortune. It maddens me. If a person slips on a spilt drink and hurts themselves, they sue the owner of the building for compensation. Whatever happened to looking where you're going? If I were a judge I'd throw it out and call them a greedy, clumsy twat.

 

Its the same with parents who think their kids are angels. These same ones that will go up to the school kicking off because a teacher has had the audacity to admonish their feral offspring. If my kids come home and tell me they've been in trouble at school, then they get into trouble at home too. Even if they complain they've been treated unfairly by their teacher, it holds no weight with me. They probably had it coming, but even in the event they were a victim of an injustice it teaches them the harsh lesson that life isn't always fair. Tough shit.

 

I've always drummed into my kids that it makes no difference how a person behaves towards them, they are still responsible for their own actions (or reactions). It's really difficult though when their heads are constantly being filled with notions of blame.

 

My dad used to say to me when I complained something wasn't fair when I was a teenager: "Life isn't fair son. If it was, God wouldn't have given you that face." I think he was joking, though it always was difficult to tell.

[WaltonRed]

As I say though, It's a shame we have to think like that when so many other cultures are able to regulate their own behaviour through some kind of value system.

 

Maybe we need to bring back a sense of 'shame' to the masses? Don't know how like.

 

We need an iron fist in a velver glove approach.

 

Yes society fails a lot of people and yes that needs addressing but at the same time we need a deterrent.

 

People and Institutions, need to have respect and their authority returned to them.

 

Let the police - police, let the teachers - teach and so on.

 

I'd love to be Home Secretary.

[GJM]

I moved away from the UK last year and have, for the past 5 months, been living in a one-party state (nominally communist, but far from it economically) where there are no free elections, limited freedoms for the press and a heavily centralised system of government.

 

I find it hugely ironic that, after spending all of my life in the UK, I have found living here to be an entirely liberating experience. I am not photographed every time I leave my house, I am not fined for every petty minor infraction that I commit, I am not threatened if I don't put the right rubbish in the right bin at the right time, social/community space is not policed by an army of 'health & safety' puritans, who nanny me through my day - If I want to do something with an element of danger, then that's entirely my look out - and I am not subjected to the ceaseless series of (usually short-lived)'moral panics' that passes for News back in the UK.

 

It has made me re-think my ideas of what liberty is, and what role personal responsibility has in that.

[Duncan Clench]

I take it that when I run for PM I can count on your votes? WaltonRed will be Home Secretary and Section will be Minister for making things Tickety-boo again.

 

Haven't got a role for Melons and SKI yet but I'm having a long, hard think about them.

[Strontium]

This is amazing. Couple break into waterpark, injure themselves, and are now suing the waterpark over their injuries.