ACADEMY ARTICLE

[aws]

Too right. Got my FA Level 2 award in talking bollocks about football yesterday; I'm hoping it's going to give me a foot in the door at Sky.

 

 

Well done. I shall pay even greater respect to your views in future.

[Dicko]

I bought a copy of the fanzine before the West Brom match on Saturday and I thought it was a fantastic piece, Dave.

 

It seems to me it's down to a clash of egos between Benitez and Parry. This mess really is damaging the long-term future of the club because as you said, the next Fowler or Gerrard is indeed out there at the moment but there's no way he'd choose our academy over Everton's.

 

I agree with your points that Benitez should not have total control over the academy in case he actually does carry out one of his threats one day and leaves the club, taking all of his staff with him. That would be catastrophic as we'd then have to employ new staff at every level of the club then and would end up costing millions to replace them.

 

Rafa should definitely not have free reign over the academy, but he should have a significant say in who gets the top job. I can understand him being pissed off with the appointment of Hamberg as it does seem strange to me that the man in charge of the playing side of the game at the club doesn't have a say in who gets employed to oversee youth development matters.

 

It's just a ridiculous situation. Parry and Rafa need to bang their heads together and stop acting like a pair of petulant kids. Obviously Rafa has the best interests of the club at heart and even though Parry is a self-serving cunt, I think deep down he must have as well. Both just need to stop the internal bitching and come to a mutual compromise.

 

There is definitely fault on both sides of this. Rafa has gone about this wrong, whatever his argument with Parry is it should not impact the most vulnerable people at the club the academy lads.

 

However Rafa is right. It's absolutely ludicrous that he has no say in the academy. Even more so in that he himself is one of the best in the world at it. Apparently Rafa was given almost total control of the youth set up at Madrid that was totally unheard of at any level there*. While Barcelona's academy has hit the headlines due to it's unearthing of talent, Real Madrid's has consistently turned out good quality players. There are 50 playing in La Liga alone, and Alvaro Arbeloa is our first choice right back. While not everything can be said to be down to Rafa, I think a significant portion can be.

 

* I think this is correct, I know this is when Rafa's relationship with Valdano became strained.

[Durango]

Parry has a son who is a coach?

 

It gets fucking worse it really does.

He's officially the Assistant Coach to the u-18's!!!!!!!

By all accounts there's no one at the Academy to touch at putting Cones out!!!!!!!!

[RSM]

Liverpool academy boss Owens reveals system under review

 

 

Liverpool academy boss John Owens has revealed the system is under review.

 

In his column for liverpoolfc.tv, Owens wrote: "Tuesday took me to Leeds where I attended a meeting that brought together Academy managers from across the country.

 

"The system has been in place for 10 years now and it is due a revamp. So we all came together and offered our thoughts on what needs changing and what works well.

 

"The game moves on quickly at first-team level and it's the same at Academy level where players come and go just as fast.

 

"It was a worthwhile gathering and at the end of it we submitted some recommendations that have been sent back to the committee that is headed up by Howard Wilkinson.

 

"It's a long-term review but I'm looking forward to seeing what happens over the next year or so as a result of it."

[dave u]

Stu, sorry to inform you but coaching badges handed out by Brett Angell don't carry much weight. May as well have gotten it free with a box of Sugar Puffs.

[Durango]

I think Dave said in the article that he brought his mates from Wrexham to be coaches too.

 

The academy also employed a doctor who didn't have the qualifications to take a medical and employed some woman who hadn't got the qualifications for her job.

I don't know what his Name/Position is (might be Owner/Director) at Wrexham,but whoever he is,he's well in with Parry,infact he introduced Parry to Al Saneer of D.I.C,that why Parry's lad was taken on originally at Wrexham

[bri]

lads who have been bought will always get the nod against academy players unless their really exceptional.

[Kevin D]

From reading the article , it's obvious to me that DaveU is Parry's mouthpiece.

[Stu Monty]

Stu, sorry to inform you but coaching badges handed out by Brett Angell don't carry much weight. May as well have gotten it free with a box of Sugar Puffs.

 

Don't ever speak ill of Brett again or we'll have issues.

[royhendo]

first post, and it's a rant aswell, so apologies. and before posting, i mean no disrespect to Dave - i just want to get my thoughts out.

 

i just got the article through the post the other day cos it's something a few of us have been debating on RAWK. i think dave highlights a lot of important points, albeit the article comes across as Dave blazing a trail for the 'downtrodden' staff at the Academy. i've not read the debate here in full, so sorry if it's been done to death, but there are a lot of holes in the argument that detract from the good points made i reckon.

 

of the 29 players listed in Ablett's squad, 9 were from the Academy, and 6 from that 9 are in the Champions League squad (out of a total of 28 ). it's hard to square that with the 'nobody from the Academy ever gets a chance' line from an outsider's point of view. if nobody breaks through, then how are the likes of gary mackay-steven and martin kelly at melwood?

 

also, how is it the melwood staff's fault if money is being spent on players at academy level while they have no control over the things they want to see in the players chosen? i can see your points on adjarevic and eccleston, but the book's not closed for eccleston (at least not yet) and there were doubts over ajdarevic stated on this site a while back, no? did dave not say ajdarevic and pourie etc were fighting, that coaches were falling out with each other, and all sorts? i don't think it's on suggesting that pourie, kakaniclic and the rest will have no chance of breaking through - there are several players at academy level who look good and if they leave then fair enough, i'd be really angry (other than the case of ecceleston, specifically dalla valle, ince, kakaniclic and buchtmann look really strong talents).

 

there are a lot of other points that i couldn't quite accept, but no point harping on - just leave it to two points really - the allegation against hamberg is pretty serious and it ought to be backed up, surely? and as for the sustained attack on macia, just looking at the reserve squad, was it all herrera's work to bring in players who look real prospects in recent years? i'm not sure who was behind every buy, but a lot of these deals have been for sweetie money (compo, nominal payments, and so forth) compared with other clubs at our level.

 

dave says pacheco and nemeth are two who could make it as first team squad regulars, but it says nothing about some of the other work we've done, and some of the players we've narrowly missed out on. we've secured a feeder club agreement with MTK Hungaria and in the article it's portrayed as if it's a complete waste of money, but in gulacsi and nemeth we've sewn up two of the brightest young prospects in european football at the moment, and the midfielder who's injured at the minute is by all accounts pretty special too. if you dig a bit deeper the academy set up there is supposedly superb and it's really only us playing catch up with what other big clubs have done in the past. even if nemeth's the only one who makes the grade, there's every chance he could be a £10-£15m player for the club, so it's hard to see how there's much downside to the deal.

 

other than that, while he's also injured as pointed out in the article, saric is recognised as a massive talent and apparently a coach who brought savicevic through as a youth and worked in denmark with saric before his move apparently rates him on equal terms. none of us have seen him play yet, but you can see the angles on why we took the risk.

 

then we pursued daniel opare only for him to u-turn at the last minute and join madrid - he's now at castilla b. i don't think the melwood-based scouts are as bad as they're being made out to be. it's all based on 'in my view the players at the academy are better than the players in the reserves', but obviously the Academy staff are going to say that.

 

there are a few decent players in there at reserve level and for me, the recruitment's not the problem - it's as you say - the lack of competitive playing time and the need to root out dead wood more regularly to free space for younger lads and brighter talents.

 

but anyway, rant over - it's not fair to criticise the article because in the end, the points made are right - it's a shit sandwich and everyone has to take a bite if it keeps up long-term. i agree strongly with dave's point on the need for long-term continuity at academy level because managers are liable to be moved on - it's a results business and cases like wenger and fergie are the exception rather than the rule. also, the shite rained on us from these two owners and from parry means it's a miracle we're managing to do anything on the park or at Academy level at all.

 

For me, I like the idea of someone respected coming in to liaise between the two parties - a new head of football development at youth level who puts the Academy staff under the right amount of pressure to perform, and agrees the standards (technical ability, physical power and fitness, and attitude - all three of those aspects are measurable in this day and age) as well as being experienced enough to know when someone's a player full stop. kenny would be the dream choice for me, because he's capable of doing the diplomatic side.

 

it's easy to single out rafa for clog for the way he's acted towards the academy, but that's modern managers at that level. mourinho lost his job because of this exact same problem apparently - he took on frank arnesen who'd been taken on to head up youth development and scouting on a massive salary, and arnesen had avram grant and abramovich's ear. mourinho took every opportunity to slag off the youth development's lack of end product, but arnesen was powerful enough to undermine his position and see him off in the end.

 

now arnesen's for the chop apparently... here's a couple of articles on it...

Digger: Chelsea cull of scouts at odds with Buck's bullish declaration | Sport | The Guardian

Premier League: Frank Arnesen on brink over Chelsea 'failure' | Football | The Observer

 

foreign managers who come to the UK think they'll get longer to complete a project - ramos thought that too - and rafa wants to stay in one place for as long as he can and control everything, just like every other manager with an ego wants to do. ferguson and wenger managed to pull it off, and it's not done either of those clubs any harm, but they had (mostly) stable ownership who were committed to their man - we don't.

 

so yeah, i totally agree with dave that we need to sort out the long-term independence of the academy but at the same time we need to put proper checks in place to make sure nobody's too cozy and complacent (not that i'm saying they are by the way - but i hate to hear people saying 'they're scared to speak their mind cos they might lose their job' - they should have the balls to give their professional opinion directly to the people who they disagree with, or they're letting the club down). we also need the melwood guys to sit down and put in writing what they expect from Academy players if they're going to graduate to the reserves, and then have someone there to make judgement calls on each category. it's possible to do it and it'd get rid of stupid arguments because the people involved would have a lot less wriggle room to work the political side.

 

anyway, everybody should be working for the long-term improvement of the club, but when your owners aren't particularly arsed beyond making the next interest payment, and when your chief exec is hell bent on saving his own arse at every turn, then it's hardly any wonder people are all over the shop at the club, and that the manager gets frustrated. the sooner we get shot of the yanks, closely followed by parry, the sooner things will start to move in the right direction.

[Randy Marsh]

Welcome to the site. A good, well thought out, and well written first post.

[dave u]

i think dave highlights a lot of important points, albeit the article comes across as Dave blazing a trail for the 'downtrodden' staff at the Academy.

 

 

Not really how it's intended to come across. I have sympathy for Owens, McCauley and Shannon, but some of the staff at the Academy are a part of the problem, not least the man at the top.

 

of the 29 players listed in Ablett's squad, 9 were from the Academy, and 6 from that 9 are in the Champions League squad (out of a total of 28 ). it's hard to square that with the 'nobody from the Academy ever gets a chance' line from an outsider's point of view.

 

They are only in there because of the UEFA ruling, I hardly think that proves that Academy players are getting a chance. In fact, it's a silly argument and one which undermines the good points you make later in the post. If Rafa could have selected Hyypia, El Zhar, Insua and Plessis do you really think Irwin, Eccleston, Kelly and Spearing would have made the squad? Irwin and Eccleston don't even get a game in the reserves.

 

if nobody breaks through, then how are the likes of gary mackay-steven and martin kelly at melwood?

 

Kelly was promoted over a year ago, before Macia went berserk and tried to sign up every young player that was offered to us by every agent in Europe. As for McKay-Steven, he was promoted along with Iriwn, and neither of them have started a game for the ressies, and Irwin has about ten minutes as a sub so far. Were almost in December now. Do you think this is beneficial to their development?

 

also, how is it the melwood staff's fault if money is being spent on players at academy level while they have no control over the things they want to see in the players chosen?

 

I didn't say it was. I said it's a mess and it needs sorting out. Either the Academy shouldn't be allowed to sign players if when they reach 18 Rafa is just gonna fuck them off, or players shouldn't be signed unless Melwood agree that they want them as well. Otherwise we're just throwing money away. I used Ajdarevic as an example, but there are others, such as Pourie, Kacaniklic, Amoo etc

 

 

i can see your points on adjarevic and eccleston, but the book's not closed for eccleston (at least not yet) and there were doubts over ajdarevic stated on this site a while back, no? did dave not say ajdarevic and pourie etc were fighting, that coaches were falling out with each other, and all sorts?

 

I said no such thing. Pourie has had problems with team-mates, largely because they think he's greedy and doesn't pass to them. As for coaches falling out with eachother, again, I don't think that was me who said that. The only thing I can remember saying is that there have been some problems in terms of Hamberg and McCauley telling players different things, and the players being confused as to who they should be listening to. As for the book not being closed on Eccleston yet, that's true, but time is running out fast. Do you not agree that he should be in the reserves as he's better than most of the strikers at Melwood? I can tell you now that this is what Gary Ablett thinks, but he is not allowed to pick him.

 

 

i don't think it's on suggesting that pourie, kakaniclic and the rest will have no chance of breaking through - there are several players at academy level who look good and if they leave then fair enough, i'd be really angry (other than the case of ecceleston, specifically dalla valle, ince, kakaniclic and buchtmann look really strong talents).

 

I agree that all of those players look really strong talents. Would you agree that if they were at any other Premiership club at least half of them would have had a taste of reserve team football by now? That was the point I was making. At the end of this season, Eccleston, Amoo, Kacaniklic and Pourie will be too old for the u18s, so they will either move to Melwood or be shipped out. As things stand, unless some of the players at Melwood are moved on to make room for them, they will have to leave. I fail to see how you are even debating this point?

 

there are a lot of other points that i couldn't quite accept, but no point harping on - just leave it to two points really - the allegation against hamberg is pretty serious and it ought to be backed up, surely?

 

What allegation?

 

and as for the sustained attack on macia, just looking at the reserve squad, was it all herrera's work to bring in players who look real prospects in recent years? i'm not sure who was behind every buy, but a lot of these deals have been for sweetie money (compo, nominal payments, and so forth) compared with other clubs at our level.

 

Off the top of my head, that reserve squad has none of Herrera's players in it, as the ones he signed are out on loan (Hobbs, Antwi, Anderson, Roque etc). And there's a reason why a lot of those players cost fuck all. I'll give you a clue, it's because they are shit. Arsenal and the mancs may be paying more money for their kids, but that's because they actually have a chance of playing first team football, 90% of the ones Rafa and Macia have brought in have absolutely no chance, and they knew that when they signed them. Two examples, Flora and Mendy. There are others too.

 

dave says pacheco and nemeth are two who could make it as first team squad regulars, but it says nothing about some of the other work we've done, and some of the players we've narrowly missed out on.

 

Come on, you seriously want me to give Macia credit for 'narrowly missing out on someone'?

 

we've secured a feeder club agreement with MTK Hungaria and in the article it's portrayed as if it's a complete waste of money, but in gulacsi and nemeth we've sewn up two of the brightest young prospects in european football at the moment, and the midfielder who's injured at the minute is by all accounts pretty special too. if you dig a bit deeper the academy set up there is supposedly superb and it's really only us playing catch up with what other big clubs have done in the past. even if nemeth's the only one who makes the grade, there's every chance he could be a £10-£15m player for the club, so it's hard to see how there's much downside to the deal.

 

Could we not have just signed Nemeth without having to set up this feeder club agreement? And what do you mean 'by all accounts' the midfielder is pretty special? The accounts I've heard suggest otherwise. Maybe their academy set up is superb, if it is then when Hamberg leaves maybe we should sign up their Academy staff to run ours. As for saying there's 'every chance' Nemeth will be a £10-15m player, don't you think that's a bit of an overstatement? An outside chance, yes. A reasonable chance, maybe. Every chance? Stretching it just a bit, seeing as how he hasn't even kicked a ball for the first team yet, or been out on loan and proved himself.

 

other than that, while he's also injured as pointed out in the article, saric is recognised as a massive talent and apparently a coach who brought savicevic through as a youth and worked in denmark with saric before his move apparently rates him on equal terms. none of us have seen him play yet, but you can see the angles on why we took the risk.

 

Fair comment, and if he proves to be as good as you say I'll hold my hands up and say it was worth taking the risk. It's just not how we've ever operated before, that's my point. Normally we'd let a player recover, monitor his progress, keep in touch with him, and then sign him when he's proved his fitness (eg Gonzalez). Signing someone who is going to be out for at least seven months with a knee injury is a bit unusual.

 

then we pursued daniel opare only for him to u-turn at the last minute and join madrid - he's now at castilla b. i don't think the melwood-based scouts are as bad as they're being made out to be.

 

So you're saying you want me to judge them on players they didn't sign as opposed to the ones they did?

 

it's all based on 'in my view the players at the academy are better than the players in the reserves', but obviously the Academy staff are going to say that.

 

The Academy coaches feel Kacaniklic and Amoo would be much better options than Bruna, and that Eccleston is better than Brouwer, Simon and Flora. Do you disagree?

 

there are a few decent players in there at reserve level and for me, the recruitment's not the problem - it's as you say - the lack of competitive playing time and the need to root out dead wood more regularly to free space for younger lads and brighter talents.

 

I agree completely. My problem is that most of that dead wood was signed by Macia, and it is holding back the better players from the u18s. That was the main point of the article in fact.

 

but anyway, rant over - it's not fair to criticise the article because in the end, the points made are right - it's a shit sandwich and everyone has to take a bite if it keeps up long-term. i agree strongly with dave's point on the need for long-term continuity at academy level because managers are liable to be moved on - it's a results business and cases like wenger and fergie are the exception rather than the rule. also, the shite rained on us from these two owners and from parry means it's a miracle we're managing to do anything on the park or at Academy level at all.

 

For me, I like the idea of someone respected coming in to liaise between the two parties - a new head of football development at youth level who puts the Academy staff under the right amount of pressure to perform, and agrees the standards (technical ability, physical power and fitness, and attitude - all three of those aspects are measurable in this day and age) as well as being experienced enough to know when someone's a player full stop. kenny would be the dream choice for me, because he's capable of doing the diplomatic side.

 

it's easy to single out rafa for clog for the way he's acted towards the academy, but that's modern managers at that level. mourinho lost his job because of this exact same problem apparently - he took on frank arnesen who'd been taken on to head up youth development and scouting on a massive salary, and arnesen had avram grant and abramovich's ear. mourinho took every opportunity to slag off the youth development's lack of end product, but arnesen was powerful enough to undermine his position and see him off in the end.

 

now arnesen's for the chop apparently... here's a couple of articles on it...

Digger: Chelsea cull of scouts at odds with Buck's bullish declaration | Sport | The Guardian

Premier League: Frank Arnesen on brink over Chelsea 'failure' | Football | The Observer

 

foreign managers who come to the UK think they'll get longer to complete a project - ramos thought that too - and rafa wants to stay in one place for as long as he can and control everything, just like every other manager with an ego wants to do. ferguson and wenger managed to pull it off, and it's not done either of those clubs any harm, but they had (mostly) stable ownership who were committed to their man - we don't.

 

so yeah, i totally agree with dave that we need to sort out the long-term independence of the academy but at the same time we need to put proper checks in place to make sure nobody's too cozy and complacent (not that i'm saying they are by the way - but i hate to hear people saying 'they're scared to speak their mind cos they might lose their job' - they should have the balls to give their professional opinion directly to the people who they disagree with, or they're letting the club down). we also need the melwood guys to sit down and put in writing what they expect from Academy players if they're going to graduate to the reserves, and then have someone there to make judgement calls on each category. it's possible to do it and it'd get rid of stupid arguments because the people involved would have a lot less wriggle room to work the political side.

 

anyway, everybody should be working for the long-term improvement of the club, but when your owners aren't particularly arsed beyond making the next interest payment, and when your chief exec is hell bent on saving his own arse at every turn, then it's hardly any wonder people are all over the shop at the club, and that the manager gets frustrated. the sooner we get shot of the yanks, closely followed by parry, the sooner things will start to move in the right direction.

 

I agree entirely with all of the above, and have said much of it myself, including the stuff about Dalglish being a good choice to oversee things because Rafa wouldn't dare treat him the way he did Heighway and Hamberg, and it would mean that Parry wouldn't be able to give jobs to his friends and family.

[redballs]

anyone any links to this article. great read, i just want to send it to a mate

[Dougie Do'ins]

anyone any links to this article. great read, i just want to send it to a mate

Buy another copy and send him that, or buy him a subscription to the mag.

[royhendo]

cheers for the detailed reply Dave - much appreciated.

 

i'll not drag it out cos i've the utmost respect for the work you put in and your contacts and passion for the club - as you say we largely agree about this stuff and it's just minor details really.

 

i'm going to be writing an article on the squad (or squads) depth issue shortly and hope to refer to your piece on the areas i agree on. i'm hoping to compare and contrast our set up with those of our rivals and try to assess the relative costs if that's possible.

 

anyway, will keep you posted on its progress.

 

 

Not really how it's intended to come across. I have sympathy for Owens, McCauley and Shannon, but some of the staff at the Academy are a part of the problem, not least the man at the top.

 

I'd agreee with that and if I misread it I apologise - my main point, though, is that people are blanking your very valid points and writing them off on other sites using that as their excuse. People bristle I guess whenever the subject of Parry v Rafa comes up in any form, but it's not right because I think many of your central points in the article are massively important, and shouldn't just be dismissed.

 

They are only in there because of the UEFA ruling, I hardly think that proves that Academy players are getting a chance. In fact, it's a silly argument and one which undermines the good points you make later in the post. If Rafa could have selected Hyypia, El Zhar, Insua and Plessis do you really think Irwin, Eccleston, Kelly and Spearing would have made the squad? Irwin and Eccleston don't even get a game in the reserves.

 

OK, well it's a good point you make about the UEFA ruling (and one I hadn't taken into account), but even taking that aside, there are a fair few Academy graduates in the Reserve squad who are getting game time, which undermines your argument in my view - just my view, but there it is.

 

Kelly was promoted over a year ago, before Macia went berserk and tried to sign up every young player that was offered to us by every agent in Europe. As for McKay-Steven, he was promoted along with Iriwn, and neither of them have started a game for the ressies, and Irwin has about ten minutes as a sub so far. Were almost in December now. Do you think this is beneficial to their development?

 

But they were all promoted. Your point was that there's no chance of players being promoted based on the examples of Eccleston and Ajdarevic, but several players have been promoted. On top of that a fair few Academy players have been given first team starts since 2004. As I say though, I agree that the current set up isn't helping players develop and it needs urgent attention.

 

I didn't say it was. I said it's a mess and it needs sorting out. Either the Academy shouldn't be allowed to sign players if when they reach 18 Rafa is just gonna fuck them off, or players shouldn't be signed unless Melwood agree that they want them as well. Otherwise we're just throwing money away. I used Ajdarevic as an example, but there are others, such as Pourie, Kacaniklic, Amoo etc

 

I pretty much agree Dave. I think there should also be a vetting process in place for assessing players before they make the step up, even if both sides have agreed to the original signing - if the player isn't turning out as hoped, we shouldn't be bound to promoting them because of politics, just like we shouldn't be rejecting/blocking them because of politics.

 

I said no such thing. Pourie has had problems with team-mates, largely because they think he's greedy and doesn't pass to them. As for coaches falling out with eachother, again, I don't think that was me who said that. The only thing I can remember saying is that there have been some problems in terms of Hamberg and McCauley telling players different things, and the players being confused as to who they should be listening to. As for the book not being closed on Eccleston yet, that's true, but time is running out fast. Do you not agree that he should be in the reserves as he's better than most of the strikers at Melwood? I can tell you now that this is what Gary Ablett thinks, but he is not allowed to pick him.

 

I can't argue with you on what the staff think cos I've never spoken to any of them - if that's their view it's wrong that things are so tense they feel they can't raise these issues. I've only seen Eccleston on the TV (one reserve game and Academy highlights since the TV channel started) so I can't testify to much beyond him looking a real prospect. As for the reserve strikers, i'd agree on Brouwer, and I'm not sure about Simon. I've never seen Flora who you're assuring everyone is a waste of space, and despite flashes of brilliance from Bruna, he looks out of sorts and a level short of what we need physically and in terms of his decision making. I disagree with your opinion of N'Gog. I'm guessing you'd rate Pacheco and Nemeth ahead of him, and when fit you'd expect Saric to stake a claim ahead of him too.

 

from what i've seen dalla valle looks an even brighter prospect than eccleston, and Pourie also looks a real handful, so your claims are going to be put to a severe test over the next few months and years, that's for sure.

 

I agree that all of those players look really strong talents. Would you agree that if they were at any other Premiership club at least half of them would have had a taste of reserve team football by now? That was the point I was making. At the end of this season, Eccleston, Amoo, Kacaniklic and Pourie will be too old for the u18s, so they will either move to Melwood or be shipped out. As things stand, unless some of the players at Melwood are moved on to make room for them, they will have to leave. I fail to see how you are even debating this point?

 

I completely agree with you on this - 100%. I'm just not sure dalla valle will be blocked when his time comes. I'm holding out some hope that if a kid's genuinely special, even politics won't be able to prevent them from breaking through.

 

What allegation?

 

the allegation that his appointment was a mistake, and that he won't have his contract renewed. it hints that he's professionally incompetent, or a trouble maker, or some combination of the two.

 

 

Off the top of my head, that reserve squad has none of Herrera's players in it, as the ones he signed are out on loan (Hobbs, Antwi, Anderson, Roque etc). And there's a reason why a lot of those players cost fuck all. I'll give you a clue, it's because they are shit. Arsenal and the mancs may be paying more money for their kids, but that's because they actually have a chance of playing first team football, 90% of the ones Rafa and Macia have brought in have absolutely no chance, and they knew that when they signed them. Two examples, Flora and Mendy. There are others too.

 

That's your opinion and your article reads as if it's shared by the Academy staff, and possibly Ablett (although it's not clear whether he thinks that of the entire squad). I know you think Plessis and N'Gog are no use - I disagree with you on those two. For me, I think there are some good young players in there. I'd include Plessis and N'Gog and you wouldn't, but even then, would you agree that San Jose, Duran, Weijl, Nemeth, and Pacheco look decent? They cost next to nothing, and there's a very good chance of them making the grade if they work hard on their game. And if not, there's an equally good chance of them being sold on for a serious profit. So again, I think there are holes in your argument - it's a subjective opinion that not everyone shares with you.

 

Come on, you seriously want me to give Macia credit for 'narrowly missing out on someone'?

 

no - the point was that we're pursuing recognised talents as well as the 'dross' you claim he's signing elsewhere. Opare, Ramsay, Cofie - we're getting some recognised talents and evidently we're also in the running for the others, which you'd expect from the scouts at a serious club, no? so maybe it's evidence they're not completely incompetent.

 

Could we not have just signed Nemeth without having to set up this feeder club agreement? And what do you mean 'by all accounts' the midfielder is pretty special? The accounts I've heard suggest otherwise. Maybe their academy set up is superb, if it is then when Hamberg leaves maybe we should sign up their Academy staff to run ours. As for saying there's 'every chance' Nemeth will be a £10-15m player, don't you think that's a bit of an overstatement? An outside chance, yes. A reasonable chance, maybe. Every chance? Stretching it just a bit, seeing as how he hasn't even kicked a ball for the first team yet, or been out on loan and proved himself.

 

I can't answer that, but feeder clubs have worked well for some clubs, most notably arsenal with the pipeline of kids from west africa, and ajax with kids from south africa. Maybe my source on these Hungarian kids isn't the greatest (Aruns who posts translations on RAWK) but the core players from the MTK Academy are creating a lot of excitement in their home country, and we've seen at close quarters how good Nemeth looks.

 

From what you read, maybe the suggestion on poaching their staff isn't such a bad idea!

 

As for my comments on Nemeth being an overstatement, I realise it's from Sky, but he's highly rated, and these players command high fees.

 

Sky Sports | Football | Transfer Centre | Sky Sports Scout | Sky Sports Scout - Krisztian Nemeth

 

Are you suggesting he's not likely to command a good sized fee?

 

Fair comment, and if he proves to be as good as you say I'll hold my hands up and say it was worth taking the risk. It's just not how we've ever operated before, that's my point. Normally we'd let a player recover, monitor his progress, keep in touch with him, and then sign him when he's proved his fitness (eg Gonzalez). Signing someone who is going to be out for at least seven months with a knee injury is a bit unusual.

 

that's a fair point, but maybe us getting him now was the only way to prize him from the other top clubs vying for his signature, much like Ferguson's wooing of Van Nistelrooy before he did his cruciate at PSV after their deal was only agreed in principle? I don't know the ins and outs any better than anyone else, but I'm pleased to read about how good Saric could be, and that he's on our books for very little investment.

 

So you're saying you want me to judge them on players they didn't sign as opposed to the ones they did?

 

no - as i said above, it's just evidence that they're in amongst it for some of the biggest prospects, which you'd expect them to be.

 

The Academy coaches feel Kacaniklic and Amoo would be much better options than Bruna, and that Eccleston is better than Brouwer, Simon and Flora. Do you disagree?

 

I agree with that - definitely. But Bruna aside, I don't think Kakaniclic and Amoo are better than Weijl, and I don't agree that Eccleston is better than Nemeth and Pacheco. I'm not sure on Simon and I've never seen Flora play, so I can't comment.

 

The point is that it's their subjective view and obviously they're going to favour their own players.

 

I agree completely. My problem is that most of that dead wood was signed by Macia, and it is holding back the better players from the u18s. That was the main point of the article in fact.

 

yup, and a very good point too. I don't agree that all of Macia's recruits are dead wood, but I do think we need to get things moving, cos the system is looking seriously 'constipated'.

 

I agree entirely with all of the above, and have said much of it myself, including the stuff about Dalglish being a good choice to oversee things because Rafa wouldn't dare treat him the way he did Heighway and Hamberg, and it would mean that Parry wouldn't be able to give jobs to his friends and family.

 

yup - as I say i think you make a lot of very important points and i meant no disrespect. in fact, i'll be promoting your ideas on this subject in my own stuff - i'll just be arguing for them in different ways is all.

 

anyway, kudos for the effort and for your continued good work - and as i say, sorry for logging on to rant instead of just lurking.

[dave u]

I'd agreee with that and if I misread it I apologise - my main point, though, is that people are blanking your very valid points and writing them off on other sites using that as their excuse. People bristle I guess whenever the subject of Parry v Rafa comes up in any form, but it's not right because I think many of your central points in the article are massively important, and shouldn't just be dismissed.

 

I'm used to what I write being dismissed by people on other sites, it goes with the territory. Most of those will not have read the article, and will just be arguing about selected points, whilst ignoring other relevant ones. You only have to look at this thread to see evidence of that, so I can imagine what it's like on other sites.

 

I disagree with your opinion of N'Gog. I'm guessing you'd rate Pacheco and Nemeth ahead of him, and when fit you'd expect Saric to stake a claim ahead of him too.

 

I don't think I specifically said much about N'Gog did I? I don't remember exactly, but my opinion on him is that I haven't actually got much of an opinion on him yet. He looked good pre-season, and has looked bad ever since. The jury is still out, but he needs to start showing something pretty soon.

 

I completely agree with you on this - 100%. I'm just not sure dalla valle will be blocked when his time comes. I'm holding out some hope that if a kid's genuinely special, even politics won't be able to prevent them from breaking through.

 

Me too, and if someone is seriously top class, I'm sure they will get through. The problem is that those who are very good, with the potential to get better, are going to suffer. Somebody like Carragher would really struggle to get through in the current climate, even into the reserves.

 

the allegation that his appointment was a mistake, and that he won't have his contract renewed. it hints that he's professionally incompetent, or a trouble maker, or some combination of the two.

 

Right, I see. I wasn't hinting at either, I'm sure he is not incompetent and I'm certainly not calling him a trouble maker. I'm just saying that if Parry had that decision to make over again, he would appoint somebody else as it hasn't worked out. Nothing sinister in it, just the wrong man for the job.

 

That's your opinion and your article reads as if it's shared by the Academy staff, and possibly Ablett (although it's not clear whether he thinks that of the entire squad).

 

It's shared by a lot of the players too.

 

I know you think Plessis and N'Gog are no use - I disagree with you on those two. For me, I think there are some good young players in there. I'd include Plessis and N'Gog and you wouldn't, but even then, would you agree that San Jose, Duran, Weijl, Nemeth, and Pacheco look decent? They cost next to nothing, and there's a very good chance of them making the grade if they work hard on their game. And if not, there's an equally good chance of them being sold on for a serious profit. So again, I think there are holes in your argument - it's a subjective opinion that not everyone shares with you.

 

I think you're misrepresenting me a little there. I've already expained my view on N'Gog, and as for Plessis, I don't think he's 'no use'. Have a read of the blog entry I made about him after the Arsenal game last season. I was full of praise for him last season, but he's rested on his laurels and has gone backwards in a big way since then. It doesn't help that he's always out in town with Itandje either.

 

San Jose is a very good player, who has zero chance of making it here and he knows it. If we lost a centre half for whatever reason, Rafa would buy another before he'd promote San Jose. And I think Martin Kelly may well overtake him soon if he hasn't already. He'll go back to Spain, and we will probably make a few quid on him.

 

Duran is a good player (not signed by Macia by the way) but I doubt he'll ever make it here as he lost two years of his career through injury and that takes a lot of making up.

 

Weijl looks promising so far, but it's still very early days. Nemeth and Pacheco are obviously the two who stand out, but I still think people are going way overboard on Pacheco. He's got a long way to go. As for Nemeth, I just want to see him get some first team appearances to see if he can transfer his reserve form to the big stage.

 

But this is really going nowhere, as I never said all the players we've brought in are shite, I just said some of them are and most of the others are decent, but have no chance of making it here and have only been brought in to swell the numbers at Rafa's Academy. I stand by that, because its true.

 

no - the point was that we're pursuing recognised talents as well as the 'dross' you claim he's signing elsewhere. Opare, Ramsay, Cofie - we're getting some recognised talents and evidently we're also in the running for the others, which you'd expect from the scouts at a serious club, no? so maybe it's evidence they're not completely incompetent.

 

Ramsay. Right, he was being pursued by Elias and Parry. I know for certain that Elias was tapping him up, and I've heard that Parry tried to convince Rafa to bid for him this summer instead of budgeting most of his cash for Barry, but Rafa was having none of it and Macia said he wasn't worth the money.

 

I'm not 100% sure on this, but from what I remember Cofie was another that Elias was after, as he would have joined the Academy, not gone to Melwood. Opare, I'll take your word for it as to be perfectly honest I've never heard of him!

 

 

As for my comments on Nemeth being an overstatement, I realise it's from Sky, but he's highly rated, and these players command high fees.

 

Sky Sports | Football | Transfer Centre | Sky Sports Scout | Sky Sports Scout - Krisztian Nemeth

 

Are you suggesting he's not likely to command a good sized fee?

 

I'm suggesting it's way too early to be talking about him as £10-15m player. I hope he is, but at the moment that's premature as there's no guarantees.

 

 

I agree with that - definitely. But Bruna aside, I don't think Kakaniclic and Amoo are better than Weijl, and I don't agree that Eccleston is better than Nemeth and Pacheco. I'm not sure on Simon and I've never seen Flora play, so I can't comment.

 

The point is that it's their subjective view and obviously they're going to favour their own players.

 

Which is kind of my point, is it not?

 

anyway, kudos for the effort and for your continued good work - and as i say, sorry for logging on to rant instead of just lurking.

 

No need to apologise for anything, glad to have you on here posting.

[Maldini]

Opare was one of the best players at the last u17 world cup. He had a trial with us, but it was never going to happen because he'd never have gotten a work permit.

[royhendo]

you're right - there's not much point in these debates - I agree there's a problem and I think it's as much structural as it is political - anyway you gave me a lot of food for thought and I appreciate it dave

[dave u]

Opare was one of the best players at the last u17 world cup. He had a trial with us, but it was never going to happen because he'd never have gotten a work permit.

 

That rings a bell now. Where is he from? I remember LiverpoolWay posted something about him I think.

[redfromtubebar]

Good old Ashanti Gold wasn't it? Seems strange that we some kind of agreement with them but are in no position to sign up their best prospects.

[john23liverpool]

sounds like a typical parry faux pas. Set up a deal with a feeder club whose players are ineligible to play. brilliant.

[bigal]

San Jose looks to be a good defender to me Dave. You don't think a loan outand a bit more experience will give him a chance? Tonight's reserve game highlighted Plessis' decline, it's very sad. Duran looks quality, I hope he can revive his career but you're right he's older than most on there now?

[redshoeshuffle]

Ramsay is probably better than Barry already, bad mistake that.

[hamstrung]

San Jose needs to bulk up a bit. He needs some of what Huth is eating.

[Maldini]

Good old Ashanti Gold wasn't it? Seems strange that we some kind of agreement with them but are in no position to sign up their best prospects.

 

Yes and yes.

 

As for San Jose. I disagree that he stands no chance of making it here, the lad is a class act. I do think though that he and 3 or 4 others desperately need to go on loan or risk going backwards.