Goalscoring, do we have a problem on our hands?

[Section_31]

The firepower's deffo there, they just need to play together long enough for us to establish a coherent 'unit' rather than just some talented individual players. This is the downside of having no set 'system' and rotation of players - especially down the flanks/channels.

[Red Nick]

The firepower's deffo there, they just need to play together long enough for us to establish a coherent 'unit' rather than just some talented individual players. This is the downside of having no set 'system' and rotation of players - especially down the flanks/channels.

 

Your quite right we have the fire power for a full out assult, however we dont have the finess to breakdown very defensive type teams, especially like Stoke and Villa

[Section_31]

Your quite right we have the fire power for a full out assult, however we dont have the finess to breakdown very defensive type teams, especially like Stoke and Villa

 

I think we do Nick, players like Xabi and Gerrard have got the eye to unlock defences like that, what they don't have, is any kind of 'sixth sense' knowledge of where the players in front of them are going to be running, and what kind of ball they want, and when they want it. That kind of understanding is only built up by playing the same attacking system/formation with the same players for a prolonged period of time.

 

Width also helps in these situations, if they're tightly packed then you need to pull them apart at the seams.

[Red Nick]

Whats baffling is that your being serious aernt you Nick? You think 10 league games is enough to brand a player whos proven for the past few seasons hes a top quality player a failure?

 

Its not uncommon for new players to take time to settle into new systems, it happens all the time and it will happen again.

I think over 25% of the season is about as much as you can ask the rest of the team to carry a player before he should give way to a less talented player that is playing better than him.

[Guest The Chimp]

I know points count and goals win games and all that - and trust me I was wound up to fuck last night, but we battered them. There are lots of "ifs" and at the end of the day they count for little, but we could have won by a few yesterday and no-one on here would have had a problem with the performance. Everyone seemed to have an off-day with their shooting yesterday, I'd certainly agree. I'm going to wait a bit until I come to a definitive conclusion, but players such as Keane, Torres, Babel, Gerrard are going to get us goals - in Kuyt and Riera, Alonso, Benayoun, N'Gog, El Zhar we've also got people who can chip in. Just one of those days that takes on added focus due to our rersult last week and our past ability to capitalise. It happens lads - teams defending in numbers and being resilient are very hard to break down. We should know this of anyone; after all this was exactly what our tactics were in Europe under Houllier and to a certain extent Rafa in his first season.

[Red Nick]

I think we do Nick, players like Xabi and Gerrard have got the eye to unlock defences like that, what they don't have, is any kind of 'sixth sense' knowledge of where the players in front of them are going to be running, and what kind of ball they want, and when they want it. That kind of understanding is only built up by playing the same attacking system/formation with the same players for a prolonged period of time.

 

Width also helps in these situations, if they're tightly packed then you need to pull them apart at the seams.

 

 

I hope you are right but I dont think we have the wide/creative players to unlock well organized teams like that.

 

Are next two home league games are against Wigan and Portsmouth two teams who can be defensively very strong if they want to play for a point.

 

Those two league games should go a long way to seeing if we are capable of unlocking a packed defence.

[Red Nick]

I know points count and goals win games and all that - and trust me I was wound up to fuck last night, but we battered them. There are lots of "ifs" and at the end of the day they count for little, but we could have won by a few yesterday and no-one on here would have had a problem with the performance. Everyone seemed to have an off-day with their shooting yesterday, I'd certainly agree. I'm going to wait a bit until I come to a definitive conclusion, but players such as Keane, Torres, Babel, Gerrard are going to get us goals - in Kuyt and Riera, Alonso, Benayoun, N'Gog, El Zhar we've also got people who can chip in. Just one of those days that takes on added focus due to our rersult last week and our past ability to capitalise. It happens lads - teams defending in numbers and being resilient are very hard to break down. We should know this of anyone; after all this was exactly what our tactics were in Europe under Houllier and to a certain extent Rafa in his first season.

 

 

I thought the performance was ok, just a little clueless in trying to break down teams we kept throwing the ball in from wide areas when there defence was so strong, the time we looked like scoring is when we played some football and got round the back, Keanes two chances and Torres Header being a good example of that.

[Guest The Chimp]

But Nick we did open them up. If we had been on the back foot and had had one shot all game I'd see we had a problem. We had 20 corners, 11 shots on target and fuck knows how many shots off target. The ONLY negative yesterday (and it is a big one, let's make no bones about it) was not putting the ball in the back of the net - we will did, but for some reason it was disallowed!? On most other days we'd expect at least a couple of them to go in. I'm chalking it up as one of those days - if it happens a few more times, then I may see it slightly differently.

[Red Nick]

But Nick we did open them up. If we had been on the back foot and had had one shot all game I'd see we had a problem. We had 20 corners, 11 shots on target and fuck knows how many shots off target. The ONLY negative yesterday (and it is a big one, let's make no bones about it) was not putting the ball in the back of the net - we will did, but for some reason it was disallowed!? On most other days we'd expect at least a couple of them to go in. I'm chalking it up as one of those days - if it happens a few more times, then I may see it slightly differently.

I think were saying the same thing more or less, the performance was acceptable however for all our huffing and puffing we couldnt blow that house down and we didnt create one clear cut dead chance which led to an appalling miss. We need someone to unlock these type of teams but we shall soon see with our next two PL home games if this was a one off or a real problem to our season.

 

Also can someone tell me why watching you beloved football team which is meant to bring you so much joy and happiness is so fucking fustrating at times. It was so fustrating at times tody

[bobhorse]

Its are normal slow start to the season followed by a good spell then a slip up normally but this season we beat Man Utd if that game had gone the other way then we would be almost level with them and they would have 2 games in hand

Thats how important that result was we are unbeaten still the goals will come and we will do what is needed i hope that Torres doesnt have to score 40 goals fo us and that the goals are more wide spread todays game could have seen 2 goals each for Gerrard Keane Kuyt and Torres with a little bit of fortune

remember these scored two against Everton and had them backs to the wall for a while and yet we dominated them

 

It will soon click into place nothing to worry about on that score

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

 

From my point of view today was on the cards and has been an accident waiting to happen with our transfer policy of the summer when buying a creative forward to unlock defences should have been the priority and we just havent addressed our biggest failing from last season.

 

We may have scored more goals against anyone else but it tended to be bucket loads when the game was won. However the truth is we struggled to break defensive teams like stoke down and its because we dont have a player like Cole, Deco, Rooney, Ronaldo, Cesc or Rosicksy someone to unlock a tight packed defence.

 

I've said this for the past two seasons. We've spent money on players we didn't (and still) don't need.

 

Torres and Keane are stuggling because they have fuck all service from the flanks. Full backs are not good enough in getting forward and players in front of them not doing the same. Also Dirk is not the answer on the right.

 

Although we beat the Mancs without Gerrard or Torres, we're still overly reliant on them producing the goods. When they don't, we're asking for trouble.

 

Feel sorry for Torres and Keane, as the service to them so far this season has been utter shite.

 

We have too many flaws in our attacking game in my opinion to be able to sustain a title charge this season.

[Woo]

Also can someone tell me why watching you beloved football team which is meant to bring you so much joy and happiness is so fucking fustrating at times. It was so fustrating at times tody

 

I think your signature answers that one mate.

[Paul]

We definitely have the players, but fitness and acclimatisation to a new club are impeding them. However, more than that is the system. I know I've been saying this since we were first linked with him - and throughout the season to date - but in my opinion the signing of Robbie Keane only makes sense if we play him off Torres in the 4231 and play Gerrard on the right. I can't see us getting the best out of our three main goal scorers if we persist with the 442.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Paul

[GJM]

In the 4-2-3-1, Gerrard has been very effective as the middle of the 3, and I think that's his best position. The problem is that it leaves nowhere for Keane to play to his best, as, personally, I think that Riera, Kuyt, Babel and possibly even Yossi, all do a better job in the wider positions that Keane.

 

So, if Keane is to play as the middle of the 3, which is his best position, then Gerrard is probably the best option we have at wide right. The problem for Benitez is that Gerrard clearly doesn't like playing there, plus, to my mind, it's trying to fit players into positions rather than positions around players and form.

 

On current form, I think you could make a good case for leaving both Keane and Torres out of the starting 11 and play Babel up front with Gerrard behind. But we all know that's not going to happen.

[Dirk]

We definitely have the players, but fitness and acclimatisation to a new club are impeding them. However, more than that is the system. I know I've been saying this since we were first linked with him - and throughout the season to date - but in my opinion the signing of Robbie Keane only makes sense if we play him off Torres in the 4231 and play Gerrard on the right. I can't see us getting the best out of our three main goal scorers if we persist with the 442.

 

 

Same here. With Xabi in the middle with Gerrard, we spread the ball wide which effectively bypasses Gerrard and then it means our strikers feed off crosses into a packed box when we are dominating possession. That's okay if the game is stretched because the box is less packed and it's possible to pick the cross but that formation, with Xabi in the middle meant that we negated the strengths of our three best players.

[Paul]

Same here. With Xabi in the middle with Gerrard, we spread the ball wide which effectively bypasses Gerrard and then it means our strikers feed off crosses into a packed box when we are dominating possession. That's okay if the game is stretched because the box is less packed and it's possible to pick the cross but that formation, with Xabi in the middle meant that we negated the strengths of our three best players.

 

You seem to contradict yourself there, Dave. They needed stretching and Xabi is the man to orchestrate that. It's Gerrard in the middle which is the problem because, as you say, he is often bypassed.

 

I think we did have a go at stretching them yesterday though, but weren't quite explicit enough in doing so. It's probably about mind set as much as anything as the players aren't used to it. We needed the full backs to be even more pushed up than they were and we also needed some touchline hugging on the flanks. As with every season at this stage, we are adapting to significant change as a team (another reason why I don't understand the move away from 4231).

[GJM]

To my mind, there were two major weaknesses yesterday. First, the poor quality of the crossing into the box - too often, and it really didn't seem to matter who was playing the ball in - it got dinked across at head height for their two centre-halves to nod away. Either that or it came back into space outside the box to be met with some truly awful shooting from whoever picked it up at range.

 

Secondly, despite the lack of success with the ball across the box, we seemed intent on repeating it over and over again, when it was crying out for a different approach. I think we really needed Yossi to play in and around the box as he works well in little space and it would have been a lot less predictable to defend against.

 

Having said all of that, we made enough chances to score, and really should have done so.

[Dirk]

I think we had a go at streching them yesterday, but weren't quite explicit enough in doing so. It's probably about mind set as much as anything as the players aren't used to it. We needed the full backs to be even more pushed up than they were and we also needed some touchline hugging on the flanks. As with every season at this stage, we are adapting to significant change as a team (another reason why I don't understand the move away from 4231).

 

I think it's near impossible to stretch a team that has 11 men in and around the box, especially the way we played yesterday. We needed to play in a manner that allowed us to work in and around their players, we were trying to get around the back but that's not always possible, it more than often is but it's so much harder when they have 11 men in the box. We were spraying the ball left, spraying it right but by the time we had switched, their defence (entire team) had moved to counteract it. Keane, Gerrard and Torres, as well as Bennanoon (*edit* as GJM mentions above) can work in and around players, beat them with intelligent link up play, a bit of skill but yesterday we used a system that completely negated "playing between the lines".

 

I felt we needed to get in and around them. I think the use of fullbacks further up the pitch is a very effective measure but I don't think running in straight lines is effective in tight situations. The fullbacks go up and down the line, fair enough but we needed to vary our movement, players drop inside, switch position quickly and effectively in the hope that it drags a marker out. When playing up and down the line, against teams with 11 men behind the ball, the defending fullback has no worry because he knows that if they get around the back there's a whole team next to him to fix his mistake. Whereas I think if a player drags his marker out of position, it can influence a cascade, one of our players can exploit the space that has been created by moving the player out of position and try to get his marker to follow, creating more space. We didn't do that yesterday. Yesterday reminded me of Liverpool under the days of Roy Evans with Redknapp passing the ball sideways around the box and us not being able to break teams down.

[GJM]

I completely agree with what you say (Dirk) about it being impossible to really 'stretch' a team who play with that many men behind the ball. You can have players pegged into position out on the flanks but if the oppostion havegot 6 or 7 men lining up to defend every cross, it doesn't make a right lot of difference, particularly when the quality of the crossing is poor and when we don't play with a 'target man' who can turn poor crosses into goals.

[havarantagain]

We should be ok goals wise, I doubt Robbie Keane will be a major contributor. He's simply not clever enough and could be detrimental to the title challenge this season-we didn't need to spend what we have for what he gives to the side.

Do you think Arsenal would have struggled against stoke yesterday, they would have passed their way through them with one twos around the edge of the box not lumping crosses on the heads of ten defenders. Thats the real difference and we haven't sorted it out.

[Guest LFD]

We have a problem breaking down stubborn teams who are happy for a draw.

 

The Villa match was different. We were missing Torres (when he went off) and Gerrard and I think it was down to a lack of adventure from Benitez and the players, rather than a lack of threatening options.

 

Teams who sit deep, we struggle to have some imagination or spark in order to win these games. This is why Ronaldo is so good for United, he wins these games for them against the poor teams. We look predictable, control games, swing the ball from side to side, but lack some guile and creation.

 

Garcia used to offer this at times, having the audacity to try things others wouldn't. But Torres is getting less space to hurt teams this season, as they are dropping so deep. Gerrard has more defensive responsibility in the centre of midfield (which is why I think he should be on the right or behind Torres), compared to last season. Keane hasn't clicked yet and if we're relying on Kuyt for goals, then we probably do have problems.

 

I thought we actually played relatively well yesterday. The problem was the final ball or finishing. Most people would have picked that team or very similar. Most people would have brought Babel on (albeit maybe for Kuyt rather than Riera). The tactics were fine, the players are still very good, but we just look a touch predictable in these games and that is where some extra touch of guile, vision or audacity would be nice to see. I think we've got the players to do this with Gerrard playing in a free role behind Torres. However if that occured it wouldn't make Benitez signing of Keane look terribly shrewd.

Edited September 21, 2008 by LFD

[Trucker Paddy]

Whats baffling is that your being serious aernt you Nick? You think 10 league games is enough to brand a player whos proven for the past few seasons hes a top quality player a failure?

 

Its not uncommon for new players to take time to settle into new systems, it happens all the time and it will happen again.

 

Kuyts in his 3rd season and still cant score regulary but the managers obsession with him is and will be a major factor in our failure to challenge this season, Kuyt is a defenders dream, no pace or skill, poor header of the ball, shit control, never in the box, and a fuckin awful finisher! But theres still people who think hes good as he puts in the work, FFS put a chicken on the pitch and it'll run around all day! How he was selected over Babel or pennant for that matter is down to the managers stubborness and we'll pay for it in the long run!

[Moo]

I think it's near impossible to stretch a team that has 11 men in and around the box, especially the way we played yesterday. We needed to play in a manner that allowed us to work in and around their players, we were trying to get around the back but that's not always possible, it more than often is but it's so much harder when they have 11 men in the box. We were spraying the ball left, spraying it right but by the time we had switched, their defence (entire team) had moved to counteract it. Keane, Gerrard and Torres, as well as Bennanoon (*edit* as GJM mentions above) can work in and around players, beat them with intelligent link up play, a bit of skill but yesterday we used a system that completely negated "playing between the lines".

 

I felt we needed to get in and around them. I think the use of fullbacks further up the pitch is a very effective measure but I don't think running in straight lines is effective in tight situations. The fullbacks go up and down the line, fair enough but we needed to vary our movement, players drop inside, switch position quickly and effectively in the hope that it drags a marker out. When playing up and down the line, against teams with 11 men behind the ball, the defending fullback has no worry because he knows that if they get around the back there's a whole team next to him to fix his mistake. Whereas I think if a player drags his marker out of position, it can influence a cascade, one of our players can exploit the space that has been created by moving the player out of position and try to get his marker to follow, creating more space. We didn't do that yesterday. Yesterday reminded me of Liverpool under the days of Roy Evans with Redknapp passing the ball sideways around the box and us not being able to break teams down.

 

 

It's funny I was only thinking the same thing yesterday before the match. I was seeing lots of arguments (on this forum) that we need to use width to stretch teams who defend deep.

It doesn't make sense, if they've got 7 or 8 players actually in the box the easiest thing for them to defend is crosses.

 

We need more cleverness, and I think we have the players for this, we're just still working out how to use them.

[Faustus]

Agree with the point about not getting the best out of our three main goalscorers in a 4-4-2.

 

For one thing, Gerrard was playng far too deep yesterday to have any influence in the final third. There was an incident yesterday in the second half were the second ball broke loose on the edge of the penalty area. It was the type of goal we often see from Gerrard were he just smacks it on the volley from outside the area, yet Gerrard was a good few yeards away from it because of the position he was playing. 4-4-2 definitely doesn't utilise the lad's attacking aility and I can't see why we've suddenly reverted back to it when we were snotting teams left, right and centre with 4-2-3-1 yesterday.

 

Torres clearly needs a breather and the lad has certainly looked off pace this season. I can't see him playing in the week so hopefully he'll have a nice little break before the derby.

 

Keane just needs one to go in off his arse. I'm not worries about him to be honest because at least he's getting in good goalscoring positions. The only things is it seems he's trying too hard to score and we've seen him snatch at a few oppurtunities in the last few games. I think once he gets his first goal he'll start to settle down and he should get a couple. Personally, I'd play him as the main striker against Crewe to give him an oppurtunity to get a goal and try and get the monkey off his back.

 

The one fucking thing that frustrated me more than anything else was the set-pieces how somebody can be paid £120k a week and not be able to take a decent corner is actually beyond. No exaggeration, but I've played in and against Sunday League teams who are better at corners than us. At least they could consistently put the ball into the danger area. I thought it was incredible as well how Rafa said he wasn't worried that we didn't create an oppurtunity from a set-piece becase Stoke are a bigger team than us. By that logic, Stoke couldn't have been blamed if they failed to turn up yesterday because we're a better team than them. Our wastefulness from corners is beyond a joke as a good set-piece can often mean the difference between 1 and 3 points in games like yesterday; especially when Chelsea won the League a few years back when 80% of their goals came from set-pieces.

[Guest LFD]

Agreed with all that Faustus.

 

The corners are clearly poor. It's not as if it is one person but yesterday we saw Gerrard, Alonso, Riera and Dossena all fail in that regard.

 

The team selection was fine, as was the atmosphere, substitutions and we controlled the game. We simply didn't take our chances and didn't create enough clear ones. But I don't think it should be all doom and gloom. We've still had a good start, the other rivals are going to drop points today and we just have to hope Torres gets sharper, Keane gets his first goal and the team clicks a touch more.

 

I thought at the beginning of the season the wide players in Kuyt, Benayoun, Pennant (and to a lesser degree Babel) were not in the same league as United's or Chelsea's in order to create enough goals for our team to challenge. Riera has come and done fairly well, but I still have the same opinion that Ronaldo, Joe Cole in wide areas create far more for their teams and strikers than ours. That's why we should have been using the Keane funds on getting this type of player in the wide players for our team.

 

We've seen Gonzalez, Zenden, Leto, Pennant, Benayoun, Nunez etc. Buy cheap, buy twice or three, four, five times in our case. I'm not saying we need an out and out 'winger'. I jut think our wide players and full backs to a lesser degree had enough times to produce some match winning brilliance yesterday and they didn't deliver. It was the same in the Champs League final when Zenden and Pennant had loads of possession, yet couldn't create or produce enough brilliance.

 

Our team controls games better than any other in the league. Our defense is looking formidable with Pepe, Skrtel and Carragher. The centre midfield are controlling games, whether it is Mascherano, Alonso or Gerrard. The strikers are a threat, given how litytle space other team will give Keane and Torres shows this. But for me until we get our Joe Cole or Ronaldo in a wide position, we'll remain to have this problem against teams who are happy to defend.