Russia Kick Off

[Section_31]

Can't find a thread on this yet.

 

This has got shades of 1939 about it IMO, the German M.O at the time was to claim that a neighbouring country was harming its ethnic German population leaving it with no choice but to 'step in'.

 

THey otfen set up border skirmishes as an excuse to enter other countries full-force, while everyone back home got whipped up into a flag waving fervor.

 

Expertly timed to coincide with the Olympics too so as to perhaps not draw as much attention.

 

(I mean seriously, when have the Russians EVER given a genuine shit about the 'suffering of others'???)

 

Russia said today it had pushed Georgian forces from the capital of South Ossetia in fierce fighting that Moscow said had killed 1,500 people.

 

On the second day of fighting that started with a Georgian military attempt to retake the separatist region, Russian planes widened the conflict, attacking targets deep inside Georgia. Five people died in one raid when a bomb from a Russian plane hit an apartment building, Reuters reported.

 

The Russian defence ministry said it had sent tanks and artillery to Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, to prevent Georgian forces attacking Russian peacekeepers and civilians.

 

Russia's troops had "fully liberated Tskhinvali from the Georgian military and have started pushing Georgian units beyond the zone of peacekeepers' responsibility", Tass quoted the commander of Russian ground forces, Vladimir Boldyrev, as saying.

 

Witnesses in the city said it had been severely damaged by Georgian bombardment and the subsequent fighting.

 

Lyudmila Ostayeva, who fled the city with her family, said: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

 

The Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, told reporters today that 1,500 people had died and the death toll was continuing to rise. There was no independent verification of this.

 

Russian officials said around 30,000 people had fled South Ossetia over the border into Russia. Officials in Moscow confirmed that two of the country's warplanes had been shot down.

 

Russian soldiers in Tskhinvali said their artillery had fired at Georgian forces - the first confirmed engagement between the two countries' troops - and the two sides were locked in heavy fighting.

 

"One hundred and fifty Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles have entered South Ossetia. This is a clear intrusion. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Saakashvili told a news conference. Tbilisi was planning to declare martial law, said Kakha Lomaia, the secretary of Georgia's security council.

 

At the United Nations, Russian and Georgian envoys hurled accusations at each other as a divided security council yesterday failed to agree on language calling for an end to the fighting. Holding its second emergency meeting in under 12 hours, the council broke off in a stalemate late last night but is to reconvene this morning.

 

There are fears of full-blown war in the region, which is a crucial energy transit route in which Russia and the west are vying for influence. The US president, George Bush, pledged support for Georgia's territorial integrity as America, the EU and Nato called for an immediate ceasefire.

 

Russia is enraged that Georgia has targeted its peacekeepers, killing more than 10 of them and injuring 30 according to the Russian defence ministry.

 

Saakashvili accused Russia of being the aggressor, but the assault seemed timed to coincide with today's launch of the Olympic games. "Most decision-makers have gone for the holidays," he told CNN. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country."

 

The Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, said after an emergency session of Russia's security council: "My duty as Russian president is to safeguard the lives and dignity of Russian citizens, wherever they are ... We will not allow the deaths of our compatriots to go unpunished. Those guilty will receive due punishment."

 

Many people in South Ossetia and Georgia's other separatist region, Abkhazia, have Russian citizenship. In Beijing, the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, met Bush briefly and they agreed that nobody wanted war. But Interfax quoted a Putin spokesman as saying "many Russian volunteers intended to go to South Ossetia and he [Putin] said it was very difficult to maintain peace in the region".

 

In neighbouring North Ossetia, which is part of the Russian Federation, hundreds of volunteer fighters were mobilising and units of armed Cossacks were poised to join the battle for Tskhinvali.

 

[RedKnight]

Really don't trust Russia. Remember that Simpsons episode when they quickly converted back into the Soviet Union? Real life that.

[Anubis]

Russia backing Ossetian rebels by encouraging them to seperate and join Russia? Good to see you taking a consistent stance with Chechnya there, Vladamir....

[Guest PaddyBerger15]

Why do I get this image of Section and a fully loaded tank heading off for South Ossetia as we speak?

[Section_31]

Why do I get this image of Section and a fully loaded tank heading off for South Ossetia as we speak?

 

Nah I'm actually off down the scrappy to buy some lead for a nuclea shelter!

 

Seriously though, the whole world is in a very, very unstable situation at the moment.

 

In decades past the Russians would have had a strong NATO to counter their moves, but now the USA is politically weak and its troops are spread all over the Middle East. I doubt they could have any influence on the Russians at all now.

[RedBrian84]

Nah I'm actually off down the scrappy to buy some lead for a nuclea shelter!

 

Seriously though, the whole world is in a very, very unstable situation at the moment.

 

In decades past the Russians would have had a strong NATO to counter their moves, but now the USA is politically weak and its troops are spread all over the Middle East. I doubt they could have any influence on the Russians at all now.

 

 

That's an excellent point; and it's also one which the Russians will use to their advantage- if the US takes a stand and attempts to tell Russia what they are doing is wrong, then the Russians will simply point out what the US are doing in the Middle East.

 

The Russians are not to be trusted; it's a long time since Glasnost, and the supposed opening of the Russian doors to the world. It seems like they have gone backwards and become more and more elusive and secretive, rather than go forwards into the 21st Century.

[Section_31]

I think the Russians are potentially a more lethal threat than the USSR ever was.

 

The Soviet planned conomy effectively emasculated it and kept its infrastructure borderline third-world, and even though it had a powerful militay it was socially and economically backward.

 

Their politburo was also composed of a lot of ageing but powerful men with varying interests and opinions.

 

Now though you've got one - powerful -leader who's word is law, they've also got a powerful economy and the means to utilise their natural resources as an economic weapon.

 

They've also replaced what was essentially a pretty benign ideology with outright nationalism - surely the most potentially destructive political and social ethos any nation can choose to pursue.

[kelster]

Russia kicks off?

 

I might have missed something on the news here, but I absoutely swear it was he Georgian government who decided that their soldiers were going to pile into South Ossetia unilaterally under the cover of the olympics. A sort of peace had recently broke out in the area lately which didn't seem to suit the Georgian government.

 

The most difficult thing to swallow in all of this is he hypocrisy of the Americans. If France had admonished Russia I might have nodded, but for the US to lecture anyone else about sending their troops into another country is beyond belief.

 

I also reckon Condelleza Rice has a pretty short memory when she asks Russia to respect the integral borders of others countries. She might want to think back and see how he US behaved in the annexation of Kosovo from Serbia.

[Section_31]

Russia kicks off?

 

I might have missed something on the news here, but I absoutely swear it was he Georgian government who decided that their soldiers were going to pile into South Ossetia unilaterally under the cover of the olympics. A sort of peace had recently broke out in the area lately which didn't seem to suit the Georgian government.

 

The most difficult thing to swallow in all of this is he hypocrisy of the Americans. If France had admonished Russia I might have nodded, but for the US to lecture anyone else about sending their troops into another country is beyond belief.

 

I also reckon Condelleza Rice has a pretty short memory when she asks Russia to respect the integral borders of others countries. She might want to think back and see how he US behaved in the annexation of Kosovo from Serbia.

 

South Ossetia is a part of their country though. Surely them sending troops there to quell an uprising is purely an internal matter, and doesn't give a major power sitting on their borders the right to send 150 tanks across and start bombing their ports?!?

[kelster]

South Ossetia is a part of their country though. Surely them sending troops there to quell an uprising is purely an internal matter, and doesn't give a major power sitting on their borders the right to send 150 tanks across and start bombing their ports?!?

 

There was me thinking Kosovo was Serbia's as well. I wonder how that works? Was that an internal matter or was it ok for the US, the EU and NATO to become involved? Maybe the UN rule on the immutability of borders doesn't need to be respected by the 'good guys' as they only do stuff like invade Iraq for the most altruistic of reasons.

 

Nobody forced Georgia into sending in the troops in what recently has been a benign situation. Especially under the cover of the Olympics while Putin was away. And do you honestly believe that Georgia thought Russia would do nothing to protect an area where over 70% of the population are Russian citizens?

Edited August 9, 2008 by kelster
Grammer

[Section_31]

There was me thinking Kosovo was Serbia's as well. I wonder how that works? Was that an internal matter or was it ok for the US, the EU and NATO to become involved? Maybe the UN rule on the immutability of borders doesn't need to be respected by the 'good guys' as they only do stuff like invade Iraq for the most altruistic of reasons.

 

I'm not getting into all that, the USA of course has no moral authority to lecture anyone on such matters, not any more, but THAT doesn't stop the Russians being a bunch of fucking arseholes.

 

I wonder what they'd do if the muslim nations decided to send a few tanks across their borders in protest at the way they treat the Chechens?

 

The Russians are about as interested in human rights violations as Dawn Fench is in healthy living.

[Red Mist]

Russians are scum. Always have been, always will be.

[kelster]

I'm not getting into all that, the USA of course has no moral authority to lecture anyone on such matters, not any more, but THAT doesn't stop the Russians being a bunch of fucking arseholes.

 

I wonder what they'd do if the muslim nations decided to send a few tanks across their borders in protest at the way they treat the Chechens?

 

The Russians are about as interested in human rights violations as Dawn Fench is in healthy living.

 

Who said the Russians were being arseholes? They weren't the ones who provoked a benign situation by sending in the tanks and soldiers first, I think that is pretty much clear.

 

Do you really think Georgia believed that Russia would do nothing and stand back? 70% of the population of S. Ossetia are Russian citizens.

 

As for Muslims sending in tanks, they have none. Maybe a few camels.

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, you do not provoke the likes of China, Russia and the US and expect there not to be a backlash.

 

Try and imagine Spain deciding that they had enough of negotiation that was getting nowhere and decided to right the wrong of what they thought was a quirk of history and get Gibraltar back while killing British citizens while they were at it. Now replace Spain with some shithole nation like Georgia with its 7 fighter planes and see if the UK, which to be fair likes to be involved in pretty much every major world conflict lately, just siting back and taking it. Would we fuck.

[dudek#1]

My knowledge of this conflict isn't great. Kelster's comparison to Kosovo and the USA's hypocrosy is interesting though (respect dude, anyone who knows their Balkans is phull phat!).

 

Why are the USA backing an independent Kosovo? Well, Serbia is generally viewed as a pariah state in the West. Kosovo is the region where Milosevic began his crusade for Velika Serbia in 1987 at the scene of Polje. Why would the US look to secede the region back to the country they were instrumental in destroying and have campaigned against for years? And of course, Albania are huge allies of the US.

 

The reason the USA are backing Georgia is because they have dedicated a nominal amount of troops to their "coalition" in Iraq. Georgia is the USA's closest ally in the region which is integral for pipelining gas and such like through to the West.

 

You're right in that USA are hypocrites. But that's nothing new. The arming of Saddam only to wage two wars against him over the next 25 years showed that.

 

Oh, and kelster, I'm reading a book at the moment by Matthew Collin about the underground pirate radio scene in Belgrade throughout the Milosevic years called This Is Serbia Calling - really good stuff.

[kelster]

Oh, and kelster, I'm reading a book at the moment by Matthew Collin about the underground pirate radio scene in Belgrade throughout the Milosevic years called This Is Serbia Calling - really good stuff.

 

Haven't read the book, but heard about it. I am a big fan of "Beh devet decet dva" (B92). My brother-in-law as a part of the scene back then.

[kelster]

Further to the Kosovo thing, it is hardly rocket science. Russia always explicitly warned of the consequence of taking Kosovo away from Serbia and that the outcome would be to encourage the likes of South Ossetia to gain independence something that has never been lost on the likes of Greece and Spain who are also against it.

 

As always thought, the US decided that only their self interests mattered and given the hawk mentality in America which deems that anything the Russians say, such as Iraq not being a very good idea, must be complete shit decided to ignore the advice. And as usual our brave old government toed the line they were told to.

 

Georgia took a big gamble in sending the troops into South Ossetia, where between 100 and 1600 civillians have been killed according to whichever side you believe; technically a war crime however you cut it. I've no doubt they have fully expected the West to send in troops to back them up for which they are going to be massively disappointed. Basically there is not much to see here. One country goes in over its head and expects everyone else to bail them out. They should just fuck off.

[Section_31]

To be honest I never quite understand the way these threads always go down the 'yeah but but but Iraq' route.

 

Someone is either up to no good or they're not, the fact that someone else has done wrong doesn't make that any less the case.

 

It's like me posting a thread on Harold Shipman and someone saying 'yeah but what about Ian Brady?'

 

The Russians are bombing civilian targets in Georgia proper, not in the combat zone, and they've violated a soevereign state - whether those people have Russian passports is by the bye.

 

Another crucial difference in the west is that we're allowed to slag off our own leaders too, and if we were having this conversation in Russia now the spetsnaz would probably be kicking down our doors.

 

The minute Michale Moore wakes up looking like this:

 

 

Is the minute I'll concede the Russians are no worse than the West and purely the victims of bad press.

[philyhamann]

"Soveit Union? We thought you guys had split up?!"

 

"Thats what we wanted you to think! Hahahaha!"

[kelster]

To be honest I never quite understand the way these threads always go down the 'yeah but but but Iraq' route.

 

Someone is either up to no good or they're not, the fact that someone else has done wrong doesn't make that any less the case.

 

It's like me posting a thread on Harold Shipman and someone saying 'yeah but what about Ian Brady?'

 

The Russians are bombing civilian targets in Georgia proper, not in the combat zone, and they've violated a soevereign state - whether those people have Russian passports is by the bye.

 

Another crucial difference in the west is that we're allowed to slag off our own leaders too, and if we were having this conversation in Russia now the spetsnaz would probably be kicking down our doors.

 

The minute Michale Moore wakes up looking like this:

 

 

Is the minute I'll concede the Russians are no worse than the West and purely the victims of bad press.

 

We can all pull out the pictures

 

 

And the reason people refer to Iraq and Kosovo is because they are all related and give nations a moral basis for interference in the business of other nations. Something which the UK and US have very little currency in. Of the more powerful nuclear countries, maybe only France has any right to give an opinion that ought to be listened to.

 

It must be wonderful to live in a moral vacuum where everything can be taken in isolation - "war is bad, mmkay".

[JagSquared]

I dont understand how this isnt a bigger news story? Nobody I know seems arsed about it.

 

What possible reaction can the west give other than a making a protest. Russia are a very worrying country and its plain to see Putin is still in charge. Russia knows nobody can do anything, and that is a pretty fucked up thing. I agree with the point made above about this Nationalistic Russia being more dangerous than the old Soviet Union.

 

Worrying indeed.

[Stouffer]

When I start doing overtime, then worry.

[JagSquared]

When I start doing overtime, then worry.

 

What do you do Mr Stouf?

[Stouffer]

What do you do Mr Stouf?

 

Train aircrews.

[JagSquared]

How's training stewardesess going to help repel the Red Army?

[Stu Monty]

I'd be very interested about the exact geographical location of the massive pipelines that run through Georgia in realtion to the region under dispute. The comparisons with the US are highly relevant given that the tustle for Georgia between the US and Russia is obviously a major factor in events.

 

I don't feel the Russians are any more or less trustworthy than the Americans; they're both persuing their own interests for resources. That article about the war-games for worldwide resources, from The Nation, that I posted up here a while back seems all the more vindicated at time goes on.

 

And that "Russians are scum" comment is just base racism. Either offer some sort of sensible opinion of expect to get shit like that deleted.