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Rafa on Net Spend and Squad Players

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In the time Rafa has been here they have rebuilt with the freedom of knowing money is no object. Ferguson built that club using the intake of youngsters at the start of the 90s (Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, The Nevilles etc) and thanks to the success he had with them, he managed to win trophies and the club generated far more money which then became availible to him.

 

Something we all know Rafa hasnt. Whilst he has been backed somewhat sufficiently he has not up until recentley been able to afford players like Torres, Mascherano and Keane. Had he had this luxury players such as Pennant, maybe even Kuyt would not have been here as they were signed due to being affordable.

 

 

That's exactly right.

Ferguson has had the luxury of time (which he has of course warranted) and plenty of money.

Ferguson's squad has evolved rather than been overhauled, and despite this business of "Rafa's spent more than them since..." it shouldn't take away from the fact that their current squad cost considerably more than ours - irrespective of net or gross spend.

 

I'm not going to list them unless anybody really wants me to but based on 20 regular players taken from the current squads:

 

 

Liverpool's cost : £135m

Mancs' cost : £205m (or £173 if you completely exclude Tevez)

 

 

These figures are based on the most commonly reported figures and all include 'final' figures, i.e. fee with add-ons.

So of course no one knows exactly how accurate they are, but if we're going to debate the relative spending of clubs/managers, these figures are as relevant and telling as any others.

 

If you take this into account, along with the time and support Ferguson has had, it would be criminal if they hadn't outperformed us.

Edited by Moo

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In all fairness reading that article i think Rafa is saying for him to be judged from this season onwards and i think thats reasonable enough.

 

We now have a very strong team and whilst i would never call for Rafa to be sacked we can not use the excuse of other teams been stronger then us because i firmly believe we have as much a chance as we have had in years to do a title challenge.

 

If we sign Barry and keep Alonso then the options available for Rafa is if he feels the need to rotate he is rotating quality with quality.

 

This summer we have got rid of some of the deadwood with hopefully some more going before the end of the window which should mean in the comings seasons the need purely for quality purchases only.

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Good post Real Red.

 

Your right about separating what Rafa does from the Owners destruction of our club.

 

However if Rafa does buy Barry he will have spent close to 40m on one good player who is better than we have and one player who is actually worse than we already have IMO.

 

That is Rafa's fault and no one elses

 

I would have preferred we had bought one player of the quality of Torres rather than one good player and one average player.

 

The realiity is Rafa is doing it his very own single minded way and if it doesnt work out this could well be his last season.

 

I look at the squad and the likely starting 11 and I dont see a player in their who will win us a game when a team puts 11 players behind the ball, wheras the top 3 have those type of players.

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Last post from me on the issue of the base we both came from and remember i said similar. The other issue of money spent is not up for debate as its a no brainer and the issue of success isn't either as they have been more successful. Instead of cherry picking players to suit arguments here are the squads from 2003-2004.

 

1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi

Defenders

Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher

Midfielders

16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer

Forwards

10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge

 

 

17 Lopez Felipe Ricardo, 1 Fabien Barthez, 13 Roy Carroll, 14 Tim Howard

Defenders

5 Rio Ferdinand, 3 Philip Neville, 22 John O'Shea, 27 Mikael Silvestre, 2 Gary Neville, 6 Wesley Brown

Midfielders

25 Quinton Fortune, 8 Nicky Butt, 15 Jos Pereira Kleberson(from 08/12/2003), 24 Darren Fletcher, 28 Mark Lynch, 19 Eric Djemba-Djemba, 16 Roy Keane, 23 Kieran Richardson, 26 Danny Pugh, 18 Paul Scholes, 11 Ryan Giggs

Forwards

7 Cristiano Ronaldo, 10 Ruud Van Nistelrooy, 21 Diego Forlan, 20 Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, 12 David Bellion

 

 

In my opinion we are better defensively(by a street), better in central midfield by a good bit, a fair bit weaker out wide even though Ronaldo was nowhere near the player he has become, and both level up front.

 

I think they were similar bases. Thats my only point on the matter.

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The part I have a problem with is that United rebuilt their entire squad/first team in that time for a similar cost and from a similar base(open to dispute from some but i stand by that). Rafa to me seems to be trying to justify the revolving door of shite policy but thankfully he seems to also be saying that he's seen the error of his ways.

 

What a load of cock and balls!

 

United had a title winning squad when Rafa took over, and we had (looking back) a bag of nails in comparison. So how you reckon Rafa started on the same footing as United when is took over is mind boggling!:no

 

I think Rafa's done an incredible job. I know it would've been better if we'd been putting up a better fight in the league over the last few years, but Rafa stuck to what he knows (Europe) while he got to grips with the league. All the while, he's been rebuilding the club from the ground up.

 

Rafa has sacrifised short term pain (if you can call 2 CL finals and 1 win in 3 years pain!) for long term gain. We now have, agruably, the best/most balanced squad in England/Europe, as well as having a reserve side that's full of some of the best young players around.

 

The man knows what he's doing. Have some faith.:thumbup:

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It's funny the people who questioned the Crouch signing most are the same ones who say he didn't play enough. The same ones questioning Barry(and or Alonso) are the same ones who probably questions Mascherano (And or selling Sissoko)

I know people will knock Rafa regardless but at least have consistency in this judgement of Rafa or even God forbid-learn.

 

I'm not in any 'pro rafa' camp as people might want to frame me but I think he knows what he's doing or failing that is making the best decisions without the wisdom of a crystal ball for the good of LFC.

Having to overturn the squad, 6 or 7 players at a time, either deadwood or players Rafa brought in to 'do a job' or make a profit on, is not a simple matter. Sometimes the right player is not available and he has to bring in players such as Crouch who he see's something he can use until we can get a Torres. He knew Nunez was shite but he had no other option, so he used him.

 

Regarding some peoples expectations on the strikers we employ....

When Rafa was at Valencia and won the league etc his strikers weren't very prolific at all as he prefers goals to be shared around and is very much a team manager, not a player manager ala Keegan or Redknapp.

 

 

His teams do play attractive, crushing football so there is a bit for everyone to enjoy except fantasy managers who want a Keegan in charge.

 

He is playing catch up to the situation of the other 3 who have all won the league in the last few years and is cutting his cloth accordingly. We are in the top 4 of probably the best league in the world with a great CL record and Rafa has only just got near to where he wants to be in terms of squad quality.

 

It's easy to sit back and criticise with or without hindsight but I think this site is much better than that and the magority of posters don't get drawn into being anti or pro Rafa as they don't make up their mind up about the answer before they hear the question. It's a forum that is known for it's posters not allowing it to descend into fantasy manager type stuff, there are others that cater for that.

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Last post from me on the issue of the base we both came from and remember i said similar. The other issue of money spent is not up for debate as its a no brainer and the issue of success isn't either as they have been more successful. Instead of cherry picking players to suit arguments here are the squads from 2003-2004.

 

1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi

Defenders

Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher

Midfielders

16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer

Forwards

10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge

 

 

17 Lopez Felipe Ricardo, 1 Fabien Barthez, 13 Roy Carroll, 14 Tim Howard

Defenders

5 Rio Ferdinand, 3 Philip Neville, 22 John O'Shea, 27 Mikael Silvestre, 2 Gary Neville, 6 Wesley Brown

Midfielders

25 Quinton Fortune, 8 Nicky Butt, 15 Jos Pereira Kleberson(from 08/12/2003), 24 Darren Fletcher, 28 Mark Lynch, 19 Eric Djemba-Djemba, 16 Roy Keane, 23 Kieran Richardson, 26 Danny Pugh, 18 Paul Scholes, 11 Ryan Giggs

Forwards

7 Cristiano Ronaldo, 10 Ruud Van Nistelrooy, 21 Diego Forlan, 20 Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, 12 David Bellion

 

 

In my opinion we are better defensively(by a street), better in central midfield by a good bit, a fair bit weaker out wide even though Ronaldo was nowhere near the player he has become, and both level up front.

 

I think they were similar bases. Thats my only point on the matter.

 

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion on our squads being similar.

 

But if that is the case surely you must think that GH did an excellent job?

 

I do not see how some people criticise all of DM,Parry,the Yanks, GH & Rafa yet we have had such success in the last 4 years in the CL...

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Whatever else happens this season, I don't think DIC and their constant leaks to the press are going to be a factor anymore - the Dubai property bubble is about to go pop, and once that happens those particular tyre-kickers will have plenty of other things to occupy themselves with.

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Last post from me on the issue of the base we both came from and remember i said similar. The other issue of money spent is not up for debate as its a no brainer and the issue of success isn't either as they have been more successful. Instead of cherry picking players to suit arguments here are the squads from 2003-2004.

 

1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi

Defenders

Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher

Midfielders

16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer

Forwards

10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge

 

 

17 Lopez Felipe Ricardo, 1 Fabien Barthez, 13 Roy Carroll, 14 Tim Howard

Defenders

5 Rio Ferdinand, 3 Philip Neville, 22 John O'Shea, 27 Mikael Silvestre, 2 Gary Neville, 6 Wesley Brown

Midfielders

25 Quinton Fortune, 8 Nicky Butt, 15 Jos Pereira Kleberson(from 08/12/2003), 24 Darren Fletcher, 28 Mark Lynch, 19 Eric Djemba-Djemba, 16 Roy Keane, 23 Kieran Richardson, 26 Danny Pugh, 18 Paul Scholes, 11 Ryan Giggs

Forwards

7 Cristiano Ronaldo, 10 Ruud Van Nistelrooy, 21 Diego Forlan, 20 Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, 12 David Bellion

 

 

In my opinion we are better defensively(by a street), better in central midfield by a good bit, a fair bit weaker out wide even though Ronaldo was nowhere near the player he has become, and both level up front.

 

I think they were similar bases. Thats my only point on the matter.

 

 

If you have bolded the players still playing you have missed out Silvestre and Fletcher, two players who have played a significant part at Man Utd over the last 4 years.

(Talk about cherry picking!!)

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Yossi, Gerrard, Torres and Keane all have the ability to unlock defences.

 

Not in the way a Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Cole, Fabregas, Rosicksy, Deco and Co can.

 

Benayoun is the only one who comes close out of that list but nowhere near the class and abillity of the players mentioned above

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If you have bolded the players still playing you have missed out Silvestre and Fletcher, two players who have played a significant part at Man Utd over the last 4 years.

 

sorry missed them, went back on silvestre. anyhow. point was, the base was pretty similar.

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Utd won the league 5 times out of 9 (from the 99/00 season until now), the lowest they finished was 3rd.

 

Our highest finish over the same period was second (once) and the lowest we finished was 5th. We've had two managers in that time, Utd have had one.

 

Anyone who thinks we've been on an equal footing is mental.

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Whatever else happens this season, I don't think DIC and their constant leaks to the press are going to be a factor anymore - the Dubai property bubble is about to go pop, and once that happens those particular tyre-kickers will have plenty of other things to occupy themselves with.

 

 

You know your onions, Dubai money is already moving out. Englilsh investors are now looking elsewhere.

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Not in the way a Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Cole, Fabregas, Rosicksy, Deco and Co can.

 

Benayoun is the only one who comes close out of that list but nowhere near the class and abillity of the players mentioned above

 

You're right, none of our players are capable of of scoring goals from nothing, beating players, infact they're all shit.

 

Why didn't we get Mourinho.

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DIC are amateurs, they were out thought and out manouevered by Hicks and Gillette.

 

I doubt we've heard the last of them yet though, I'm sure they'll have one more ballsed up attempt to buy the club.

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Real Red - that's a class piece of writing that would happily grace the opinion pages of any broadsheet newspaper. Full respect. I didn't bother reading any of the thread after that because that post neutralised all of the waffle that surrounded it. One of the ebst posts I've ever read on this site.

 

[/fellatio]

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Whatever else happens this season, I don't think DIC and their constant leaks to the press are going to be a factor anymore - the Dubai property bubble is about to go pop, and once that happens those particular tyre-kickers will have plenty of other things to occupy themselves with.

 

Except DIC make money from the money markets not property.

 

This is the perfect time for them because they get to take advantage of hard up businesses in trouble - as Ansari said "The Credit Crunch doesn't impact on our investment strategy"... they are cash rich.

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sorry missed them, went back on silvestre. anyhow. point was, the base was pretty similar.

 

I disagree.

At the time we may have thought we were close but with hindsight, from the players you've listed, they were better in every department.

There's probably only one player in our squad at that time who you could say would have made a big difference to the Mancs (Gerrard of course).

Whereas 4 or 5 of theirs would have made a big difference to us.

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Every manager makes good and bad buys and when talking about net spend its hard to make a valid comparison with just the years of rafa's reign. For example fergie bought RVN BEFORE RAfa was manager but sold him DURING rafa's reign. So when calculating fergie's net spend that would have helped a lot as well as selling beckscum(was that during rafa's reign i can't remember) who obviously came through the ranks so he was free.

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I just don't think that Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin as a group of forwards offered much more than Cisse, Pongolle and Baros certainly not in front of goal which is where they brought in to play for.

QUOTE]

 

Completely agree, I would choose a strikeforce including Torres, Baros, Cisse and Pongolle any day over one including Torres, Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin.

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Not in the way a Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Cole, Fabregas, Rosicksy, Deco and Co can.

 

Benayoun is the only one who comes close out of that list but nowhere near the class and abillity of the players mentioned above

 

Tevez doesn't unlock defenses. Yes he has scored important goals(so has kuyt..no i'm not making a comparision just saying), but he doesn't unlock defenses. The mancs only have rooney and ronaldo and we have gerrard and torres. Its yet to be seen how deco will get on in the premiership.

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