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hamstrung

Rafa on Net Spend and Squad Players

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I'd disagree but as I say its open to dispute.

 

But which time are you referring to? It can't be at the same time as rafa as they haven't rebuilt, so it must be another period. I would have to know which period you are referring to in order to be able to dispute/discuss it.

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Its open to dispute because its inaccurate.

 

Inaccurate!!!

 

It is the biggest pile of shite I've heard on this site.

Edited by Fugitive

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I'll give you Voronin, but Crouch and Kuyt over Baros and Cisse any day of the week.

 

 

 

They really didn't have a similar base.

 

As a group of forwards none have been a great success here. Crouch could have been if he had played more, Kuyt's been pushed out wide where he's more effective same as Cisse was and even taking into account Baros' faults he still knew where the net was.

 

I just don't think that Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin as a group of forwards offered much more than Cisse, Pongolle and Baros certainly not in front of goal which is where they brought in to play for.

 

I'm not saying he's got it totally wrong in the transfer market because he hasn't, Reina, Skrtl, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso are all examples of what he's got right I just think at times he's been too hasty in getting rid of players and there's been a bit of a revolving door when you look at some areas of the pitch when I think steady improvement would have been a better policy than wholesale changes.

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?

 

I think he meant KevinGs post, not yours hammy.

 

Also class post that RR, Ive given out too much rep in the past 24 hours but I'll give you one later.

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Season upon season he has improved us as a squad that for me is good enough, when we start going backwards then I would ask questions.

 

Optimistic you bet, the most optimistic I have been in years.

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But which time are you referring to? It can't be at the same time as rafa as they haven't rebuilt, so it must be another period. I would have to know which period you are referring to in order to be able to dispute/discuss it.

 

Same time as Rafa. they have rebuilt.

 

Of the team that started the champions league final for them, how many were there the day Rafa started? I would say probably 3.

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Same time as Rafa. they have rebuilt.

 

Of the team that started the champions league final for them, how many were there the day Rafa started? I would say probably 3.

 

Brown, Ferdinand, Scholes, Ronaldo and Rooney all started the game and were there when Rafa started at Liverpool.

 

If you want to knock Rafa, atleast try and use better examples. Don't come up with bollocks like Utd had to rebuild their team like Rafa and that they did it with less money blah blah blah.

 

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

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Same time as Rafa. they have rebuilt.

 

Of the team that started the champions league final for them, how many were there the day Rafa started? I would say probably 3.

 

In the time Rafa has been here they have rebuilt with the freedom of knowing money is no object. Ferguson built that club using the intake of youngsters at the start of the 90s (Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, The Nevilles etc) and thanks to the success he had with them, he managed to win trophies and the club generated far more money which then became availible to him.

 

Something we all know Rafa hasnt. Whilst he has been backed somewhat sufficiently he has not up until recentley been able to afford players like Torres, Mascherano and Keane. Had he had this luxury players such as Pennant, maybe even Kuyt would not have been here as they were signed due to being affordable.

 

I think Rash makes a decent point about replacing like for like in terms of the Cisse example. A few quality additions rather than the squad players may have turned out better. But I think that given the state of the squad he inherited, Rafas done the right thing. Most of the squad players Rafa has bought that have been sold on, have been sold on at a profit. This generating some much needed funds when money has been tight.

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Brown, Ferdinand, Scholes, Ronaldo and Rooney all started the game and were there when Rafa started at Liverpool.

 

If you want to knock Rafa, atleast try and use better examples. Don't come up with bollocks like Utd had to rebuild their team like Rafa and that they did it with less money blah blah blah.

 

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

 

Could be wrong but didn't rooney sign the close season that Rafa joined? I'd say Rafa was here before Rooney was with them. Not being pedantic(or maybe I am :) ) but that makes 4 players. Thats a big rebuilding job in anyones language.

 

I'm not even attacking Rafa here, United completely rebuilt their team in that time and with similar(note I'm not saying less even thought it could be) money.

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As a group of forwards none have been a great success here. Crouch could have been if he had played more, Kuyt's been pushed out wide where he's more effective same as Cisse was and even taking into account Baros' faults he still knew where the net was.

 

I just don't think that Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin as a group of forwards offered much more than Cisse, Pongolle and Baros certainly not in front of goal which is where they brought in to play for.

 

I'm not saying he's got it totally wrong in the transfer market because he hasn't, Reina, Skrtl, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso are all examples of what he's got right I just think at times he's been too hasty in getting rid of players and there's been a bit of a revolving door when you look at some areas of the pitch when I think steady improvement would have been a better policy than wholesale changes.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your summing up of the strikers, but I basically agree.

I think sometimes Rafa has brought in too many players, sometimes cos he thinks he could sell them on for a profit - e.g. Bellamy, Voronin, Kromkamp. He's just been a bit too over clever at times in trying to create extra value for spending on more players, and the big influx has made it hard for us to get into our stride until later in the season. In my opinion.

 

Still, no manager makes perfect decisions on buying players, and he hasn't made any big money mistakes. I don't think we would have won the league anyway for the last 4 seasons even if Rafa had got everything spot on.

I'm pretty happy with an FA Cup, and obviously our Champions League win and continual excellence.

Quietly optimistic about coming close this season, along with a cup or two.

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Off I go again. Skip this, it's long. But my chest was heavy...

 

I read that as Rafa saying he's spent the past few seasons building up his squad, using the technique of buying and selling at a profit in some cases, trying hard to close the gap in the quality of our squad and the squads of those 'above' us. Winning the CL so soon meant people's expectations went higher than they should. Now he says we're ready to start challenging for the title.

 

He doesn't say we'll win the league - but he clearly thinks we shouldn't be too far off the pace. He's not grumbling about the amount he's had to spend - he's just pointing out that if we expected to challenge in the previous seasons he'd need far more money than he actually got. He doesn't want to have to keep bringing in six or seven players each summer (excluding youngsters) he wants to be in a position where he adds one or two top names each summer instead.

 

This isn't a dig at anyone (yet) but there are so many negative agendas out there now that it's getting ridiculous to try and talk about LFC.

 

Net spend is one topic that brings up so much anger. If you want to slag off the owners, you put Torres down at 18.5m and up the prices of anyone we sold. If you want to slag off the manager you put Torres down at 26.5m and exclude Luis Garcia's fee and so on. Mascherano's fee varies from fuck all to 18m depending on which agenda you're following. Very few people know the truth about Mascher's fee, and whether they decide to tell the truth when speaking to others is up to them. The only place you can really get a feel for net spend is from the club's accounts, and even then you can argue it all ways round when you compare it to other clubs.

 

Things to be wary off this season are letting the ownership mess influence your views of Rafa.

 

Two owners are superficially showing new-found unity. They're not united at all, and when it suits will start to leak stuff again that suits them. It might be stuff to discredit each other, or to discredit Rafa.

 

Rick Parry is also treading water, working out how best to survive, and he'll also leak information that helps him in some way. Rafa's had it in for him before, and although they now seem to be getting along at least professionally, if he gets wind of Rafa revealing any more phone-off fuck-ups he'll be sending out his counter-attacks through any channel he can.

 

Rafa won't want to stand by and let any of those three discredit him, or overplay anything good they've done that might raise expectations too high. So he'll be using the press to his advantage as ever. He'll do this in open press conferences and interviews, in "microphones off" discussions after press conferences, privately through the Echo and others, and also with the help of his agent of course.

 

Then we've got Dubai, and their mixture of methods that all have one goal in mind - taking over LFC: at the right price but at any cost. Their aims will be to discredit Hicks and Gillett as much as possible, so if Rafa is on the ropes at some point it would be no surprise to hear a story about how he's been told he has to offload £25m worth of players in January.

 

In short - take all the facts about money spent with a pinch of salt, at least until the accounts for the year-end just gone come out. Focus on what happens on the pitch, because the off-pitch stuff will drive you insane. At the very least Rafa deserves the benefit of the doubt this season, even if you don't understand his decisions on issues like Barry and Xabi. That's not a cue to sit and wait for Barry's first fuck-up so you can jump onto here (or elsewhere) pointing out "I told you so".

 

This could be Rafa's last season here, quite easily, so it's only fair to do whatever you can to make sure he's given all the help you can give him. If it ends with number nineteen then you'll be glad you did try to help. If it ends with him leaving, and another five-year spell under a new manager beginning, then at least you can hold your head up and say you didn't do anything to hasten his departure.

 

Carry on.

 

Well done, would have repped if I could.

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Manc players still at club now from start of 04/05 season:

 

Darren Fletcher

John O'Shea

Paul Scholes

Gary Neville

Rio Ferdinand

Ryan Giggs

Wes Brown

Cristiano Ronaldo

Louis Saha

Wayne Rooney

 

 

Liverpool players:

 

Carragher

Hyypia

Finnan

Gerrard

Alonso

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Could be wrong but didn't rooney sign the close season that Rafa joined? I'd say Rafa was here before Rooney was with them. Not being pedantic(or maybe I am :) ) but that makes 4 players. Thats a big rebuilding job in anyones language.

 

I'm not even attacking Rafa here, United completely rebuilt their team in that time and with similar(note I'm not saying less even thought it could be) money.

 

Yes, you are just being pedantic in the first bit.

 

It is very convenient for you to forget that Utd had players like Silvestre, O'Shea, Keane, Giggs, Nistelrooy, Solskjaer, Saha isn't?

 

We had Smicer, La Tallec, Murphy, Cisse, Pongolle, Cheyrou, Diao, Diouf, Traore.

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fair enough. I'll withdraw from the line of fire.

 

In fairness, Rafa started it this time

 

Not you.

 

You're wrong, but not you.

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Rashid, we have not had a higher net spend than the Mancs & Chel since Rafa has been here.

 

Once wages are included they are way in front & wages/fees are the same (If not then Voronin is a great buy....)

 

Moreover even without they are both ahead on any like-4-like measure ie/ including Tevez which will go thru at over £30m once the paperwork is sorted

 

 

You know this & you are not unintelligent so why post differently?

 

You actually weaken your genuine criticisms with this nonsense.

Recently you have been pretty interesting to read with your honest appraisal of your problems with Rafa:

Criticism of his style of play leads to a debate on i) Results vs entertainment & ii) Whether he is holding us back in the League due to 3 points/win.

 

I disagree with you on both of these but thought your criticisms were insightful. Why ruin that with factually incorrect nonsense about his spending?

You just harm your own arguments.

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