EDUARDO MACIA: "It's all about the right mentality"

[Xabi D]

Our "big" money attacking signings have been a success apart from Morientes.

 

Gonzalez and Leto were/are just hopeful punts - with very little risk attached to them.

 

Nunez - he was a given to us because Owen decided(shafted us) to leave for Madrid, it was him or nothing.

 

Bellamy - was bought because he was playing superb for Blackburn and had a£6m release clause which met our budget (constraints).

 

Pennant - I fully agree with you on this one, but some on here rate him, so it's still not that clear cut especially when you consider our budget. I can see Rafa's reasoning behind signing him - it just hasn't paid off.

 

There are plenty of superb attacking players that we've scouted and wanted but for whatever reason we've missed out on them.(mainly cost)

 

Berbatov, Tevez, Aguero, Simao, Alvez, Keane, Aimar, Villa, Pato, Ashley Young.

 

Our biggest constraint is budget and that has hurt our attack, partly because we lost so much money on Cisse, Owen, Diouf and even Kewell (in respect of wages outgoing). Only this forthcoming season (just about) has Rafa been in a position to get one or two quality attacking players without the need to plug holes with squad players.

 

When have we ever been after Pato?

[Eiler]

When have we ever been after Pato?

 

Just before he went to Milan.

[DT]

Our "big" money attacking signings have been a success apart from Morientes.

 

Gonzalez and Leto were/are just hopeful punts - with very little risk attached to them.

 

Nunez - he was a given to us because Owen decided(shafted us) to leave for Madrid, it was him or nothing.

 

Bellamy - was bought because he was playing superb for Blackburn and had a£6m release clause which met our budget (constraints).

 

Pennant - I fully agree with you on this one, but some on here rate him, so it's still not that clear cut especially when you consider our budget. I can see Rafa's reasoning behind signing him - it just hasn't paid off.

 

There are plenty of superb attacking players that we've scouted and wanted but for whatever reason we've missed out on them.(mainly cost)

 

Berbatov, Tevez, Aguero, Simao, Alvez, Keane, Aimar, Villa, Pato, Ashley Young.

 

Our biggest constraint is budget and that has hurt our attack, partly because we lost so much money on Cisse, Owen, Diouf and even Kewell (in respect of wages outgoing). Only this forthcoming season (just about) has Rafa been in a position to get one or two quality attacking players without the need to plug holes with squad players.

 

It's a myth that Rafa hasn't been able to sign big money forwards.

 

Every summer he's chosen to spend the money on 5-6-7 players a la Pennant, Yossi, Garcia etc. in the £4-6m bracket because he's felt we've needed a bigger squad. So he's really just been replacing his own mistakes a lot of the time. Instead of getting the Torres (or whichever name from your above list) right away.

[Paul]

I think a good example of what Macia means is Quaresma. According to an interview Quaresma recently gave, we spoke to him last summer, we asked him to be more aggressive and direct and he wouldn't.

 

You see this is where I think Rafa is too cautious; too regimented. I know that there are no absolutes in football, even though everyone wants to make everything so in order to suit their argument. However, Bob Paisley used to say that the system at Liverpool was to go out and sign the very players around and then let them play. Now I'm not naive enough to believe that he wasn't being just a little bit disingenuous with such a comment, not to mention, self-deprecating. However, I think he basically meant what he said: talent is all and don't over-complicate things. I think Rafa fundamentally mistrusts players and that is his Achilles heel.

 

I can't believe people are now saying I've said we're not looking at talented youngsters. As if we'd sign Sunday league players (although looking at Jordy Brouwer you do wonder).

 

But I think both Macia and Rafa place too much emphasis on this mentality thing.

 

The type of player we need to lift us from being grafters - and third/fourth - are often special human beings that require different approaches.

 

Good coaches know they need a few of these players and they find ways to, if not accommodate them, then get the best out of them. It seems Liverpool are shying away from certain players because we're afraid we can't handle them.

 

But a wise coach once said that the players that give you the most trouble off the pitch are very often the players that cause the opposition most trouble as well. This coach won the European Championship.

 

Rafa will have to take a chance at one point because we won't win the league on graft and dedication alone. The opposition teams are, tactically, much better than they ever were.

 

When was Ginola at his best? When he applied graft, someone said. It can be done in other words.

 

I also don't see much wrong with Quaresma's comments further up. I don't give a toss what he does in his spare time as long as he's not taking the piss. He says he doesn't go clubbing. Are players not allowed to enjoy their lifestyle?

 

What's so wrong with not viewing the profession exactly like Rafa Benitez?

 

Peter Schultz

 

*Applauds (again)*

 

Fergie's greatest asset, in my opinion, is taking ego maniacs like Keane and Cantona and getting the best out of them. He knows that all players need to be treated differently because they are not machines: Cantona was cut all kinds of slack that someone like Giggs never was when he was coming through. That applies to the way he uses players on the pitch too. On paper, we have a similar system to the one The Mancs use. However, I can't conceive for one second of Rafa allowing so many attacking players to be so fluid in ther positions on the pitch without his explicit instructions about where to go.

 

People seem to be down on our scouting network. But somehow a reserves team filled with the products of said network managed to win the reserves league at a canter. Pretty good indiciatioin that things are going pretty well in my book.

 

BTW Who signed Nemeth? Pretty good attacking player if you ask me.

 

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good moan.

 

I'm certainly not moaning. As I said, I thought what the guy said was insightful. However, my point was that it's a little premature to start saying how amazing he is when not a single attacking player has come through as a result of his work (unless you are going to credit him with "finding" Torres). In other words, he is unproven - as I said - with attacking players. That's not a criticism; it's a fact (unless you see signing reserves as the summit of our Chief Scout's work). I'm not saying he's not doing his job; I'm saying it's too soon to know.

 

It's a myth that Rafa hasn't been able to sign big money forwards.

 

Every summer he's chosen to spend the money on 5-6-7 players a la Pennant, Yossi, Garcia etc. in the £4-6m bracket because he's felt we've needed a bigger squad. So he's really just been replacing his own mistakes a lot of the time. Instead of getting the Torres (or whichever name from your above list) right away.

 

Agreed. Again.

[Cardie]

 

Fergie's greatest asset, in my opinion, is taking ego maniacs like Keane and Cantona and getting the best out of them.

 

You just criticised Rafa for trying to do that with Quaresma?!

 

Telling him to be more direct and aggressive is no different to what Ferguson told Ronaldo. Tricks are fine as long as they have a purpose and aren't being done just because he can.

 

He did it in the Euro's, portugal got the ball and were on a break, instead of just heading for goal he slowed down a bit, when he already had the beating of the chasing defender, so he could try a fancy trick fell over the ball and the move broke down.

 

It was completely needless and Scolari went mental.

[Paul]

You just criticised Rafa for trying to do that with Quaresma?!

 

Telling him to be more direct and aggressive is no different to what Ferguson told Ronaldo. Tricks are fine as long as they have a purpose and aren't being done just because he can.

 

He did it in the Euro's, portugal got the ball and were on a break, instead of just heading for goal he slowed down a bit, when he already had the beating of the chasing defender, so he could try a fancy trick fell over the ball and the move broke down.

 

It was completely needless and Scolari went mental.

 

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I completely agree that talent should not be aimless. However, I'm talking about the relative freedom Fergie affords the mavericks, both on and off the pitch. I don't see Rafa doing the same thing here. In fact I can't imagine Rafa ever signing comparable players to Keane and Cantona for Liverpool because I think he basically mistrusts them. Do you disagree?

 

My one hope for the coming season is that there are signs of him starting to relax a little in his attitude to our attacking play. A side with Torres, Babel, Gerrard and Keane as its attack can't not be fluid and spontaneous to at least a certain a degree.

[Cardie]

Their seems to be a misconception that Rafa has players squared away in little zones and he curbs their attacking talent by doing that.

 

We've seen that's not the case with Babel, Gerrard and Torres last season.

[Paul]

Their seems to be a misconception that Rafa has players squared away in little zones and he curbs their attacking talent by doing that.

 

We've seen that's not the case with Babel, Gerrard and Torres last season.

 

I'm not so sure that I agree in the case of Babel yet. However, as I said above, I do think he is moving that way with our attack and it's great to see.

[coop]

Quaresma like Mancini was not signed for the fact they would not be doing what the manager asked them to do.

 

A fine example was Scholari losing his rag with Quaresma on the touchline after he was brought on to no doubt keep hold of the ball and he tried doing a fancy flick and fell over.

 

Quaresma will not tell the full story but im presuming Rafa was asking the lad not to do the fancy tricks all the time but to be a team player which is something Quaresma was not prepared to do.

 

Its a shame because the lad had the chance to join a massive club if he had shown a desire to actually sign by saying he was willing to knuckle down and although still having the freedom to do the tricks he would have to learn when and when not to do them and therefore would have become a better player.

 

Rafa does like to sign 'free spirits' as he showed in his first season when he signed Garcia and you have a player like Pennant who whilst at Liverpool has showed a superb attitude.

 

If Rafa had his way then Aguero would be a Liverpool player now and that young lad is full of tricks and creativity.

[Best Believe It]

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I completely agree that talent should not be aimless. However, I'm talking about the relative freedom Fergie affords the mavericks, both on and off the pitch. I don't see Rafa doing the same thing here. In fact I can't imagine Rafa ever signing comparable players to Keane and Cantona for Liverpool because I think he basically mistrusts them. Do you disagree?

 

There is evidence to the contrary. Look at Lee Sharpe and Ryan Giggs and how Ferguson curbed their off the field activities.

 

I don't honestly see how you can make a judgement on how much freedom ferguson affords the mavericks, as you say, with any real accuracy. And on the opposite side of the coin, say that Rafa mistrusts players.

 

There was a story of how Grobbelaar signed for Liverpool. Paisley said 'Do you want to play for Liverpool?' and Bruce said 'Yes'. Paisley said 'That'll do for me'.

 

Robbie Fowler almost didn't bother reading the contract when he re-signed, he was so eager to join. That's the mentality I understand Macia is talking about. It's got nothing to do with whether a player is a grafter or not. Its' whether they have it in them to give their all for the good of the team. It seems to be the case that Quaresma was asked 'Do you want to play for Liverpool' and his answer was 'Yes, within certain conditions'. Thats' not right for the club.

[Cardie]

I'm not so sure that I agree in the case of Babel yet. However, as I said above, I do think he is moving that way with our attack and it's great to see.

 

With Babel I don't mean he's up at the level of Torres and Gerrard just that his attacking play doesn't seem to be hampered by rigid formations and instructions.

[coop]

I'm not so sure that I agree in the case of Babel yet. However, as I said above, I do think he is moving that way with our attack and it's great to see.

 

Rafa wants a fluid, mobile attack which is why we will have pace throughout the strikeforce this season in Babel, Torres and Keane who will all be back up by Gerrard who is a powerful attacker himself.

 

When you look at what Rafa is trying to achieve with the team this season the last thing he wants for them is to stay in 'little zones' but have the knowledge when to cut inside, swap flanks, drop deeper and full on attack.

 

The pre-season games have been painful to watch but when you consider that next season like i said the attack i presume will be Babel, Torres, Keane supported by Gerrard then only Babel has featured out of those players and even then its been a more cameo appearance.

 

For what its worth regards the team i would leave Barry alone and keep Alonso but spend the estimated £7 million it would cost to sign Van der Vaart who can play left of midfield or i would imagine could fill the Babel or Gerrard role if needed.

[Rashid]

Cardie you are deluded if you think Rafa allows his players too be as expressive say as Barca, Man United or Arsenal players are. Which is the point everyone is trying to make entirely. The handling of Ronaldo by Fergie would be entirely different to that of Rafa not least because Ronaldo has no defensive duties at United.

 

Secondly onto the point of signings, even last summer Rafa chose to buy Benayoun, Babel and Lucas for the price of a Quaresma - he has to take responsibility for his signings and he has spent shit loads with it. The revisionism is doing nobody any favours.

 

It is about risk, and Rafa doesn't like risk, the sooner he realises he needs to do that on the pitch and off it the sooner we can challenge for the league.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Rashid
Abusive.

[Rashid]

Their seems to be a misconception that Rafa has players squared away in little zones and he curbs their attacking talent by doing that.

 

We've seen that's not the case with Babel, Gerrard and Torres last season.

 

Torres defends corners for us, does Ronaldo do that for United? The responsibilities playing for a defensive manager like Rafa is entirely different to that of someone like Ferguson.

[Cardie]

Torres defends corners for us, does Ronaldo do that for United? The responsibilities playing for a defensive manager like Rafa is entirely different to that of someone like Ferguson.

 

How many times has Ronaldo, or Utd as a whole, scored directly from an opposition corner?

[coop]

It would not surprise me if Ronaldo does defend corners as hes a very good header of the ball so helps out whereas players like Rooney or/and Tevez will stay upfront.

[Cardie]

Cardie you are a deluded cunt if you think Rafa allows his players too be as expressive say as Barca, Man United or Arsenal players are. Which is the point everyone is trying to make entirely. The handling of Ronaldo by Fergie would be entirely different to that of Rafa not least because Ronaldo has no defensive duties at United.

 

No, that's the point YOU want to make.

[Rashid]

Quaresma like Mancini was not signed for the fact they would not be doing what the manager asked them to do.

 

A fine example was Scholari losing his rag with Quaresma on the touchline after he was brought on to no doubt keep hold of the ball and he tried doing a fancy flick and fell over.

 

Quaresma will not tell the full story but im presuming Rafa was asking the lad not to do the fancy tricks all the time but to be a team player which is something Quaresma was not prepared to do.

 

Its a shame because the lad had the chance to join a massive club if he had shown a desire to actually sign by saying he was willing to knuckle down and although still having the freedom to do the tricks he would have to learn when and when not to do them and therefore would have become a better player.

 

Rafa does like to sign 'free spirits' as he showed in his first season when he signed Garcia and you have a player like Pennant who whilst at Liverpool has showed a superb attitude.

 

If Rafa had his way then Aguero would be a Liverpool player now and that young lad is full of tricks and creativity.

 

There are no free spirits in Rafa's system Coop. You may say that Torres, Gerrard, Garcia etc are allowed to express themselves fine, but they also have defensive responsibilities and are never usually supported by the rest of the team in quick attacks - we attack in 2 or 3's not 6's and 7's like say United.

 

So freedom? Expression? Not under Rafa. It's about stratego.

[Paul]

Cardie you are a deluded cunt if you think Rafa allows his players too be as expressive say as Barca, Man United or Arsenal players are. Which is the point everyone is trying to make entirely. The handling of Ronaldo by Fergie would be entirely different to that of Rafa not least because Ronaldo has no defensive duties at United.

 

Secondly onto the point of signings, even last summer Rafa chose to buy Benayoun, Babel and Lucas for the price of a Quaresma - he has to take responsibility for his signings and he has spent shit loads with it. The revisionism is doing nobody any favours.

 

It is about risk, and Rafa doesn't like risk, the sooner he realises he needs to do that on the pitch and off it the sooner we can challenge for the league.

 

What the fuck, Rash? You're fucking bang out of order with that. Just when a debate is starting to move somewhere you throw the abuse in. Hypocrite.

[Rashid]

No, that's the point YOU want to make.

 

Yes or No is allI need Cardie.

 

Does Rafa on the whole allow his players to express themselves as much as Ferguson, Wenger and Rijkaard do?

[Rashid]

What the fuck, Rash? You're fucking bang out of order with that. Just when a debate is starting to move somewhere you throw the abuse in. Hypocrite.

 

I apologise to Cardie for that, it was out of order. But the rest stands.

[Cardie]

Yes or No is allI need Cardie.

 

Does Rafa on the whole allow his players to express themselves as much as Ferguson, Wenger and Rijkaard do?

 

Oh good, we have Rash's yes or no fall back. The default when he doesn't want anyone to question him.

 

Did Torres express himself any less than any player in those sides Rash?

[Redexile]

Cardie you are a deluded cunt if you think Rafa allows his players too be as expressive say as Barca, Man United or Arsenal players are. Which is the point everyone is trying to make entirely. The handling of Ronaldo by Fergie would be entirely different to that of Rafa not least because Ronaldo has no defensive duties at United.

 

Secondly onto the point of signings, even last summer Rafa chose to buy Benayoun, Babel and Lucas for the price of a Quaresma - he has to take responsibility for his signings and he has spent shit loads with it. The revisionism is doing nobody any favours.

 

It is about risk, and Rafa doesn't like risk, the sooner he realises he needs to do that on the pitch and off it the sooner we can challenge for the league.

 

 

I'm so fuckin tired of reading your posts about Quaresma. Can you PLEASE just put the record back in the cover and lock it away . You should change your name to Rashzzzzzzzzid

[Best Believe It]

There are no free spirits in Rafa's system Coop. You may say that Torres, Gerrard, Garcia etc are allowed to express themselves fine, but they also have defensive responsibilities and are never usually supported by the rest of the team in quick attacks - we attack in 2 or 3's not 6's and 7's like say United.

 

So freedom? Expression? Not under Rafa. It's about stratego.

 

For fuck's sake Rashid, why? Why say that sort of thing - it utterly undermines any valid points you make.

 

I don't see a problem in all players having defensive responsibilities - Ian Rush is often referred to as having been our first line of defence. Mind you I guess it depends what you mean by defending as I think that was referring to him closing people down.

[coop]

This season you will see Babel, Torres and Keane as the strikeforce so thats three players there.

 

Playing behind these three supporting the main striker will be Gerrard.

 

Rafa has during the summer break signed two attacking full backs so at least one of them will attack on a regular basis so thats another two attacking players there.

 

I think you will see us be far more attacking this season otherwise if Rafa was so defensive why would he go make his priority signings two attacking full backs.

 

I full expect the attackers to do there fair share of work as to challenge for the league we cna have no passengers, every player has to do his bit for the club.

 

A fine example of this is one of the best if not the best striker i have ever watched in Ian Rush who was the first line of defence when he played as striker by closing down the opposition defence all the time.