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Rashid

Peter Crouch

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Haha.

 

Well, I'd never really seen Kuyt play, plus he'd never scored any goals in the Premiership, so his goal record was irrelevant (well, ish).

 

I thought he had a decent first season, ol Dirky.

 

Only joking. I hadn't seen him either. And he'd scored a shitload in Holland. You never can tell. Look at Morientes.

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Hindsight is wonderful though.

 

So is being paid tens of millions of pounds to do the best job in the world with massive resources at your disposal. For fuck's sake, any other sarcastic responses to perfectly fucking reasonable and fair-minded criticism of our manager from anyone? It's so fucking lame the way so many people resort to the snidey shite when they don't like the argument.

 

I conceded that the use of the word stumble was a little loose. However, if this is what Rafa was planning all along, why did he take so long to use it consistently? And if he was waiting for the right players, why did he leave it half a season before using it when he finally had them? I'm fucking made up he's done it and made up it's working, but let's not pretend that this was some master plan that was being craftily hidden from view while we slipped out of contention in the league simply so we could enjoy leaving the BS in our wake in the end of season race for the dizzy heights of fourth.

 

And as for hindsight, as I'm getting bored of saying every time another snidey comment gets chucked out, unlike many others, my concerns about Rafa didn't materialise at Christmas. Also unlike many others, they haven't gone away simply because we've had a good (and very enjoyable) run.

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Only joking. I hadn't seen him either. And he'd scored a shitload in Holland. You never can tell. Look at Morientes.

 

Um, I could tell, looking at Morientes. I was not surprised he failed. I was only surprised by how badly.

 

That said, I thought Cisse would take the Premiership by storm.

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So is being paid tens of millions of pounds to do the best job in the world with massive resources at your disposal. For fuck's sake, any other sarcastic responses to perfectly fucking reasonable and fair-minded criticism of our manager from anyone? It's so fucking lame the way so many people resort to the snidey shite when they don't like the argument.

 

I conceded that the use of the word stumble was a little loose. However, if this is what Rafa was planning all along, why did he take so long to use it consistently? And if he was waiting for the right players, why did he leave it half a season before using it when he finally had them? I'm fucking made up he's done it and made up it's working, but let's not pretend that this was some master plan that was being craftily hidden from view while we slipped out of contention in the league simply so we could enjoy leaving the BS in our wake in the end of season race for the dizzy heights of fourth.

 

And as for hindsight, as I'm getting bored of saying every time another snidey comment gets chucked out, unlike many others, my concerns about Rafa didn't materialise at Christmas. Also unlike many others, they haven't gone away simply because we've had a good (and very enjoyable) run.

 

Watching Paul and RiS argue is like watching two of your favourite childhood cartoon characters fighting

 

Funny. But wrong.

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So is being paid tens of millions of pounds to do the best job in the world with massive resources at your disposal. For fuck's sake, any other sarcastic responses to perfectly fucking reasonable and fair-minded criticism of our manager from anyone? It's so fucking lame the way so many people resort to the snidey shite when they don't like the argument.

 

I conceded that the use of the word stumble was a little loose. However, if this is what Rafa was planning all along, why did he take so long to use it consistently? And if he was waiting for the right players, why did he leave it half a season before using it when he finally had them? I'm fucking made up he's done it and made up it's working, but let's not pretend that this was some master plan that was being craftily hidden from view while we slipped out of contention in the league simply so we could enjoy leaving the BS in our wake in the end of season race for the dizzy heights of fourth.

 

And as for hindsight, as I'm getting bored of saying every time another snidey comment gets chucked out, unlike many others, my concerns about Rafa didn't materialise at Christmas. Also unlike many others, they haven't gone away simply because we've had a good (and very enjoyable) run.

 

Xabi was injured

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So is being paid tens of millions of pounds to do the best job in the world with massive resources at your disposal. For fuck's sake, any other sarcastic responses to perfectly fucking reasonable and fair-minded criticism of our manager from anyone? It's so fucking lame the way so many people resort to the snidey shite when they don't like the argument.

 

I conceded that the use of the word stumble was a little loose. However, if this is what Rafa was planning all along, why did he take so long to use it consistently? And if he was waiting for the right players, why did he leave it half a season before using it when he finally had them? I'm fucking made up he's done it and made up it's working, but let's not pretend that this was some master plan that was being craftily hidden from view while we slipped out of contention in the league simply so we could enjoy leaving the BS in our wake in the end of season race for the dizzy heights of fourth.

 

And as for hindsight, as I'm getting bored of saying every time another snidey comment gets chucked out, unlike many others, my concerns about Rafa didn't materialise at Christmas. Also unlike many others, they haven't gone away simply because we've had a good (and very enjoyable) run.

 

Correct. And hindsight is so passe. Seeing round corners is where it's at, daddio.

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So is being paid tens of millions of pounds to do the best job in the world with massive resources at your disposal. For fuck's sake, any other sarcastic responses to perfectly fucking reasonable and fair-minded criticism of our manager from anyone? It's so fucking lame the way so many people resort to the snidey shite when they don't like the argument.

 

I conceded that the use of the word stumble was a little loose. However, if this is what Rafa was planning all along, why did he take so long to use it consistently? And if he was waiting for the right players, why did he leave it half a season before using it when he finally had them? I'm fucking made up he's done it and made up it's working, but let's not pretend that this was some master plan that was being craftily hidden from view while we slipped out of contention in the league simply so we could enjoy leaving the BS in our wake in the end of season race for the dizzy heights of fourth.

 

And as for hindsight, as I'm getting bored of saying every time another snidey comment gets chucked out, unlike many others, my concerns about Rafa didn't materialise at Christmas. Also unlike many others, they haven't gone away simply because we've had a good (and very enjoyable) run.

 

It's a logically flawed proposition. "I don't understand his decision making, therefore he must have stumbled." It just means you don't understand his reasoning. It doesn't mean he meant to either but, like that Times article suggests, it's a formation that he was writing newspaper articles about 15 years ago, for people to use such loose descriptions does a huge disservice to the man's outstanding tactical foresight.

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I think the reason people get their hackles up about the word "stumbled" is because it's on a par with comments like Gray's "Benitez got lucky again" and whereas you might expect that from some Sky muppet you wouldn't really expect it from someone who professes to support the club.

 

Bingo. It's just another case of people not being able to swallow their pride. A manager that won the UEFA Cup and 2 La Liga's, one of the formations greatest exponents, which he is, stumbled upon it? Get fucking real. What whoppers.

 

I'm sick of this shit - and from two huge brains/Reds, too. We don't like the arguement so we'll belittle the person rather than the point. What the fuck, fellas? Questioning my support and calling me a whopper who can't swallow his pride? Cheers.

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It's a logically flawed proposition. "I don't understand his decision making, therefore he must have stumbled." It just means you don't understand his reasoning. It doesn't mean he meant to either but, like that Times article suggests, it's a formation that he was writing newspaper articles about 15 years ago, for people to use such loose descriptions does a huge disservice to the man's outstanding tactical foresight.

 

This kind of thinking subsumes individual thought and objectivity, and instead seems to suggest we should meekly bow before the altar of Benitez, because we're too fucking dim to understand the machinations of this infallible genius.

 

ie Our manager is actually God.

 

Wow.

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I'm sick of this shit - and from two huge brains/Reds, too. We don't like the arguement so we'll belittle the person rather than the point. What the fuck, fellas? Questioning my support and calling me a whopper who can't swallow his pride? Cheers.

 

I think you may have stumbled upon a raw nerve there chaps.

 

You're right Paul, it is always the same, and it forces people who love Rafa (like me) to adopt a more extreme position than I feel comfortable with in order to hammer home the point in the face of some very one-eyed toadying. No-one is saying Rafa isn't a great manager. No-one is saying he hasn't played the system before. The more objective of us are perfectly aware that he has tried out lots of other formations, buying players to suit those other formations, before settling on this one.

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It's a logically flawed proposition. "I don't understand his decision making, therefore he must have stumbled." It just means you don't understand his reasoning. It doesn't mean he meant to either but, like that Times article suggests, it's a formation that he was writing newspaper articles about 15 years ago, for people to use such loose descriptions does a huge disservice to the man's outstanding tactical foresight.

 

"Logically flawed", my proposition may be, but I know one thing: no-one deliberately holds back a tactic/selection that they think is better than the one they've got while they're dropping points. And my name is not "people" or any other cop-out references to the third person; you can address me directly. I'm sick of the likes of you, Jim and most surprisingly of all, Andrew, throwing sarcastic and snide comments at me because you don't like what I've got to say. I thought you were all way, way better than that. Attack my point, by all means, but call me a whopper with too much pride or question my support? What's that about?

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This kind of thinking subsumes individual thought and objectivity, and instead seems to suggest we should meekly bow before the altar of Benitez, because we're too fucking dim to understand the machinations of this infallible genius.

 

ie Our manager is actually God.

 

Wow.

 

No it doesn't. Making a judgement 15 years prior to adopting that formation at Liverpool would suggest that he didn't stumble upon it. Unless you know every constraint on his decision making processes then you will never know. Some might have seen his outstanding Spanish record, his outstanding European record (he could quite conceivably go on to become the best European manager of his generation) and the fact that he has such an astute tactical eye and believed that he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

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I'm sick of this shit - and from two huge brains/Reds, too. We don't like the arguement so we'll belittle the person rather than the point. What the fuck, fellas? Questioning my support and calling me a whopper who can't swallow his pride? Cheers.

 

That's how i've felt for quite a while now. You really can't say anything about Rafa without it being analysed semantically and then used as a stick to beat you with.

 

I think I was the first person to mention the word 'stumbled' when discussing the system we're currently using. I only remember that fact because I was slaughtered for it by the usual suspects.

 

The funny thing, is that it was only a throwaway comment and was used in a very loose way. I didn't (and don't) suggest that Rafa played 'pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey' to select the formation, but suggested that the fact we were forty odd games into the season quite possibly indicated that it wasn't a planned switch.

 

Rafa used the same style at Valencia with slightly different variations, but the evidence is undeniable that he didn't plan for this to be the shape at this point in the season. If that was the case, then we'd have seen a lot more of it over the years, rather than the odd game here and there which is the reality. There's been times when we've played with a similar formation, but the personnel selected has been wrong. It's only recently that Rafa has married the two together, and it's great to see because it suits the players at his disposal. If we'd started the season with it, then who knows where we'd be now?

 

Some people just refuse to hear anything other than eulogies towards Rafa.

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"Logically flawed", my proposition may be, but I know one thing: no-one deliberately holds back a tactic/selection that they think is better than the one they've got while they're dropping points. And my name is not "people" or any other cop-out references to the third person; you can address me directly. I'm sick of the likes of you, Jim and most surprisingly of all, Andrew, throwing sarcastic and snide comments at me because you don't like what I've got to say. I thought you were all way, way better than that. Attack my point, by all means, but call me a whopper with too much pride or question my support? What's that about?

 

The fact that people constantly belittle the manager is a little grating. Ordinarily, I'd buy the idea that the word selection was wrong but you are one of the most eloquent, if not most eloquent people I converse with, you knew what you were writing. Perhaps my criticism was harsh and it wasn't exclusively directed at you, a number of people have used that description of him and a number of people continue to be unreasonably critical of him.

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No it doesn't. Making a judgement 15 years prior to adopting that formation at Liverpool would suggest that he didn't stumble upon it. Unless you know every constraint on his decision making processes then you will never know. Some might have seen his outstanding Spanish record, his outstanding European record (he could quite conceivably go on to become the best European manager of his generation) and the fact that he has such an astute tactical eye and believed that he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

I simply don't believe that every decision he's made since he's been here has been leading up to this evangelical moment when everything has fallen into place JUST AS HE PLANNED IT.

 

Because that's hysterical bollocks.

 

I think Benitez's "evangelical moment" - unfortunately for us - was the fucking spanking that Bolton dished out to us in Benitez's first season, which led to a moment of actualisation in how he thought a Premiership team should be set up, and how it should play.

 

And led to the purchase of players like Sissoko and Crouch.

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"Logically flawed", my proposition may be, but I know one thing: no-one deliberately holds back a tactic/selection that they think is better than the one they've got while they're dropping points. And my name is not "people" or any other cop-out references to the third person; you can address me directly. I'm sick of the likes of you, Jim and most surprisingly of all, Andrew, throwing sarcastic and snide comments at me because you don't like what I've got to say. I thought you were all way, way better than that. Attack my point, by all means, but call me a whopper with too much pride or question my support? What's that about?

 

 

Calm down Paul. I didn't even realise you'd used the word "stumbled". I was replying to another poster explaining why people are getting annoyed by its use. I certainly wasn't having a go at you.

 

The word is fast becoming the latest weapon to hit Benitez with and has been used a lot on here for the last few weeks. I object to its use because I think it demeans Rafa's ability and record as a manager. I'm very happy to accept that you had no such intention.

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That's how i've felt for quite a while now. You really can't say anything about Rafa without it being analysed semantically and then used as a stick to beat you with.

 

Meaning is everything.

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The funniest thing is Rafa will NEVER stick to this formation week in week out.

Hence this whole argument being fruitless.

Rafa knows every single formation anybody has ever played (probably) and we've used this formation before this season and even earlier this season when things weren't going our way.

 

Its working at the moment and he doesnt want to ruin the momentum at this stage of the season.

 

I fully expect him to begin trying out different formations once we've guaranteed fourth, or more likely next year/pre-season.

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Calm down Paul. I didn't even realise you'd used the word "stumbled". I was replying to another poster explaining why people are getting annoyed by its use. I certainly wasn't having a go at you.

 

The word is fast becoming the latest weapon to hit Benitez with and has been used a lot on here for the last few weeks. I object to its use because I think it demeans Rafa's ability and record as a manager. I'm very happy to accept that you had no such intention.

 

Well thanks for clarifying that, mate - and I'm sorry for misinterpreting you (and a little embarrassed), although hopefully you see why. I still think it's out of order to question someone's support because you don't agree with a particular argument. That is only deserved by those who make personal comments about players and managers. I've never lost my cool in all my years on this site, but then again, I've never been addressed as a whopper by someone I respect before or had my Red credentials questioned by the same.

 

However, I still think you and Dave are being over-sensitive about that word. Some of the greatest moments in history, nevermind sport, have come about through a fortuitous turn of events. It defies belief and indeed all the evidence that Rafa had planned to adopt this system with, crucially, Gerrard and Torres linking up so well. I'm absolutely delighted to see it happen (both for us and for Rafa) and I sincerely hope it's his intention to make it the basis of all his future plans. It is genius in its appropriateness for our players, but all the circumstantial evidence points to something akin to a last roll of the dice from Rafa. He was under huge pressure and his career was justifiably being questioned. He went for this and it paid off. That does not make it a master plan, but nor is it something to criticise him for. It's just great that it's happened.

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The funniest thing is Rafa will NEVER stick to this formation week in week out.

Hence this whole argument being fruitless.

Rafa knows every single formation anybody has ever played (probably) and we've used this formation before this season and even earlier this season when things weren't going our way.

 

Its working at the moment and he doesnt want to ruin the momentum at this stage of the season.

 

I fully expect him to begin trying out different formations once we've guaranteed fourth, or more likely next year/pre-season.

 

 

Agree with that. I wouldn't be surprised to see 4-4-2 on Saturday because if he rests Torres we can't really play the current system.

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