Peter Crouch

[Spy Bee]

We could have sold him, but then Fernando might have done a Fernando. And a Morientes mark 2 would have seen Crouch play a lot more.

[Ted]

Spot on Paul. It is like when Crouch scored a hatrick against Arsenal and was dropped the next game, bizarre.

 

He played in the next game and scored. PSV.

[Brodie]

Crouch was being treated shabbily for a long time before we stumbled upon this excellent new system in January. His treatment by Rafa is one of the biggest mysteries of his tenure. He bought a highly controversial player, stuck with him for 19 games when he wasn't scoring, reaped the rewards as our away form, ball retention and ability to get Gerrard into scoring positions all improved and then he signed Dirk and turned Crouch into a bit part player. Crouch continued to play well and score when called upon and yet he still didn't get the key role he'd proved he could excel in in his first season. He should have been sold last summer.

 

Why did we stumble / happen upon this formation?

 

Its like Rafa has never used it before? Valencia?

 

Even in Alonso's first game for us at Bolton away in 2004 we played this formation, and frequently in games we've changed to it over the last 4 years - although admittedly rarely started with it.

 

Why will very few people give Rafa credit for playing his favoured formation? Maybe its only now he feels we have the players to play it effectively?

 

Sorry - know I've gone a bit off topic, but this frustrates me

[Paul]

Why did we stumble / happen upon this formation?

 

Its like Rafa has never used it before? Valencia?

 

Even in Alonso's first game for us at Bolton away in 2004 we played this formation, and frequently in games we've changed to it over the last 4 years - although admittedly rarely started with it.

 

Why will very few people give Rafa credit for playing his favoured formation? Maybe its only now he feels we have the players to play it effectively?

 

Erm, because we've had the same players all season and he waited until January to use them? I clearly realise that Rafa is not an idiot and I also know that he - and we - have used the system before. The stumbling bit is in the use of Gerrard, Babel and Kuyt and particularly in the way Gerrard and Torres have clicked.

[navbasi]

I think Crouch will be our Defoe.. He'll move on in the summer and score a hatful of goals for Pompey. Good luck to him.

[Anubis]

With respect Paul, changing the system to effect an improvement in team performance is not stumbling. I'd have expected a comment like that from Hermes, not from you.

[Brodie]

Erm, because we've had the same players all season and he waited until January to use them? I clearly realise that Rafa is not an idiot and I also know that he - and we - have used the system before. The stumbling bit is in the use of Gerrard, Babel and Kuyt and particularly in the way Gerrard and Torres have clicked.

 

So we didnt stumble across this new formation then, OK. It really pisses me off that that is how the press are selling it and alot of our fans seem to be buying it aswell.

 

As regards why we didnt use it until January, the way i see it, it all comes down to the develpment of Gerrard playing with Torres. At the start of the season it was easy to think that Gerrard would be sitting deep playing passes to Torres as he did with Owen, and previously Gerrard has often been neutered playing as a second striker, too often ending up playing with his back to goal, so it was never an obvious option.

 

Cant we give Rafa some credit for recognising the growing understanding between Gerrard and Torres and deciding to amend our line up accordingly, rather than implying that he got lucky?

[Rashid]

Why is this formation being used after 4 years then? Surelt we could have used it with Cisse Baros, Kewell and Gerrard? or whatever. Despite what many people say, he certainly did not use this system at Valencia.

[RedinSweden]

I don't see how that means it has been stumbled upon Rash.

[Brodie]

He certainly did use this formation at Valencia.

 

In order for 4-2-3-1 to work effectivley you need intelligent mobile footballers in the forward 4 positions which will explain why we didnt use it with Cisse, Baros & Kewell.

[El Rojo]

I agree with the theory that we kept him as an insurance in case Fernando was more Morientes than Fowler, would have been foolish not to.

 

But he'll surely be out the door in the summer with Riise and Carson, and even in today's market that should be near £20m for new players.

[GJM]

This formation is not new and, as said above, has been used by Rafa on a number of occasions. Perhaps he wanted to play it earlier in the season but felt restricted by the combined effects of Xabi's lengthy spell out with injury and the time that it was felt was needed for Lucas and Babel to settle into the English football?

 

Whatever the reason, I don't think it's a formation that has been 'stumbled' upon, and I think that there are sufficient reasons why it perhaps wasn't used previously.

 

As for Crouch, I think he wasn't bought on last night as it was thought that Voronin would do a better job than him at chasing down the play from high up the pitch (defending from the front, as it were). It clearly wasn't done to give us any attacking intent and, at 1-1 with less than 10 mins on the clock, you can see why this was. I was surprised to see Voronin take the field, but I don't think it's a sleight on Crouch.

 

I also don't think that Crouch should have been sold in the summer, for the reasons others have given above - it would have been too much of a risk without an adequate replacement. I also don't think he's earned a place in the side this season, although how Rafa used him (or didn't) last year is something which I find harder to understand. I like Crouch, and I wouldn't question his attitude, but he's just not been good enough this year to warrant a regular starting place, and certainly not in the system we are now playing. I'll be surprised if he doesn't leave in the summer, probably for less than we could have got for him last year, but there's bigger issues at stake than just the money here.

[RedinSweden]

Hindsight is wonderful though.

[Best Believe It]

Rafa used it when we beat Arsenal 2-1 - with TBM as the lone striker and Kewell, Gerrard and Pongo supporting. Didi and Xabi holding. We were fucking ace that game.

[GOLDMEMBER]

Hindsight is wonderful though.

 

Amen brother.

[Strontium]

Rafa must just hate top scorers... Baros, Cisse, Crouch... Torres better watch his back next season!

[Guest TK-421]

Rafa must just hate top scorers... Baros, Cisse, Crouch... Torres better watch his back next season!

 

He's just smart enough to look at the bigger picture, beyond statistics and stupid coloured football boots.

[silverlining]

I'll be glad when he goes. Not good enough for Liverpool and never has been.

 

That said, there's quite a few others I'd get rid of before Crouch, and Voronin is one of them.

[silverlining]

I think Crouch will be our Defoe.. He'll move on in the summer and score a hatful of goals for Pompey. Good luck to him.

 

Defoe's a miles better finisher. Miles.

[stringvest]

Why did we stumble / happen upon this formation?

 

Its like Rafa has never used it before? Valencia?

 

Even in Alonso's first game for us at Bolton away in 2004 we played this formation, and frequently in games we've changed to it over the last 4 years - although admittedly rarely started with it.

 

Why will very few people give Rafa credit for playing his favoured formation? Maybe its only now he feels we have the players to play it effectively?

 

Sorry - know I've gone a bit off topic, but this frustrates me

 

Because if it was his favoured formation, he would have started out buying players to suit it. He didn't. He's tried lots of formations, and as Paul says, he's stumbled onto something that works with the players he has. I love Rafa, but to suggest that he has spent the last four years planning to get to this point, this way of playing, is deluded. He's human, you know, he can and does make mistakes. Quite big ones, sometimes. That doesn't mean he isn't a great manager.

[G Richards]

Sissoko was sold for a profit, and at the time when we knew we were bringing Macerhano in permanently. The timing of his sale was therefore correct.

 

Crouch is a trickier conundrum, but we must remember that a player needs to be open to a move too. Every time Crouch has spoken on the subject he has shown a determination to stay at Liverpool, and who can blame him? He will not play at a bigger club than us, so I imagine he is hanging on for dear life. Another factor is Rafa's future. I reckon Crouch might have stayed on this season to see what happened with Rafa, perhaps thinking that he would get more of a look in under a new manager.

 

In all likelihood Crouch will be off this summer. He is not suited to 4-2-3-1 as he is not mobile enough, and no one can say he should be in ahead of Torres.

 

That said, he is our second best striker and merits more action than he has seen, but I just see the clock ticking down on his Liverpool career. He will go in the summer for approximately the sum we bought him for, and to his credit, he will go with the best wishes of all fans (coupled with a slight regret that he wasn't used a bit more).

[GJM]

Because if it was his favoured formation, he would have started out buying players to suit it. He didn't. He's tried lots of formations, and as Paul says, he's stumbled onto something that works with the players he has. I love Rafa, but to suggest that he has spent the last four years planning to get to this point, this way of playing, is deluded. He's human, you know, he can and does make mistakes. Quite big ones, sometimes. That doesn't mean he isn't a great manager.

 

I think there is a difference between saying on the one hand that he has spent 4 years planning to get to this point (i.e. this system), and on the other saying that he hasn't just stumbled upon it. I think Rafa's a pragmatist who'll adapt to do whatever he thinks will get the best out of the players he has (and he certainly gets this wrong on occasions - both for players and systems).

 

I do, however, think it likely that he has had this system in mind since signing Torres and Babel though, but, perhaps for the reasons stated above, hasn't felt able to deploy it regularly until relatively recently. Not sure what the initial objection to use of the term 'stumbled' was, but this would be mine. It suggests that it was a complete accident. To me, this seems pretty unlikely.

[stringvest]

That said, he is out second best striker and merits more action than he has seen, but I just see the clock ticking down on his Liverpool career. He will go in the summer for approximately the sum we bought him for, and to his credit, he will go with the best wishes of all fans (coupled with a slight regret that he wasn't used a bit more).

 

A good proportion of people on this website will violently disagree with the statements in the above paragraph. Plenty of people on here dislike him intensely, and don't rate him, fools as they are.

[stringvest]

I think there is a difference between saying on the one hand that he has spent 4 years planning to get to this point (i.e. this system), and on the other saying that he hasn't just stumbled upon it. I think Rafa's a pragmatist who'll adapt to do whatever he thinks will get the best out of the players he has (and he certainly gets this wrong on occasions - both for players and systems).

 

I do, however, think it likely that he has had this system in mind since signing Torres and Babel though, but, perhaps for the reasons stated above, hasn't felt able to deploy it regularly until relatively recently. Not sure what the initial objection to use of the term 'stumbled' was, but this would be mine. It suggests that it was a complete accident. To me, this seems pretty unlikely.

 

Nope, I don't think it was a complete accident, it was just another formation he was trying out. The point I was trying to make to the 'Rafa can do no wrong' brigade was that he could have chosen to buy players to fit the formation from day one, but he didn't. He chose to try several other formations before trying this one and having success with it. As I said before, that doesn't mean he's a bad manager - in fact, I think it shows a certain flexibility in his approach that is not always obvious at a lower level.

[GOLDMEMBER]

I think rafa has recently said, that he cant use tactics in the league, its more about brute force and pace, rather than skill, technique, and tactics. Thats why he's playing this formation, its suited to the hurly burly of the league. I Fully expect crouch to be gone in the summer simply because our style of play has evolved, the same goes for alonso.