Star Trek - The Shit, or Just Shit?

[Section_31]

8 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

Been watching random episodes of DS9 and Garak has some fantastic lines in it.

 

BASHIR: Out of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't? 
GARAK: My dear Doctor, they're all true. 
BASHIR: Even the lies? 
GARAK: Especially the lies.

 

 

In the pale moonlight is a boss episode.

 

The Die is Cast is class too when he reunites with Emabran Tain, his old spy master who also turns out to be his dad.

 

There's a bit where Tain indicates he might have to have his housekeeper killed because she knows too much of his business and Garek if fond of her.

 

Garak: It'd be a shame to get rid of someone who's proven so useful

 

Tain: Are you fond of her? It's okay to admit it, sentimentality isn't always a weakness, just say the word and ill spare her.

 

Garak: I'm merely stating the facts, if you're looking for an excuse to save her you don't need my permission.

 

Then In Purgatory's Shadow on his death bed when he's rumbled about being Garak's dad. "I should have killed you when you were an infant. You've always been a weakness i could never afford."

 

Just absolute gold, the subtext, everything. Say it a lot but it does my head in the way people would coo over fucking bog average telly yet dismiss trek as daft scifi, it's had some of the greatest actors, characters and writers in film and TV history.

[JagSquared]

Garak really was a fantastic character prob my fav ST of all time. he was just so well fleshed out.
 

I really want to read Andrew Robinson’s novels “a stitch in time” but paper copies are crazy priced I could get an ebook I guess.

 

Also one of favs is when he’s discussing the point of “the boy who cried wolf”

 

GARAK
Are you sure that's the point, Doctor?

BASHIR
Of course, what else would it be?

GARAK
(matter-of-fact)
That you should never tell the same 
lie twice...

[JagSquared]

34 minutes ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

Garak is amazing. I don’t like DS9 that much but Garak is awesome. 
 

The first episode of Discovery was really excellent. 

Oh is it out already? Will have to download and watch it.

[Section_31]

13 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

Garak really was a fantastic character prob my fav ST of all time. he was just so well fleshed out.
 

I really want to read Andrew Robinson’s novels “a stitch in time” but paper copies are crazy priced I could get an ebook I guess.

 

Also one of favs is when he’s discussing the point of “the boy who cried wolf”

 

GARAK
Are you sure that's the point, Doctor?

BASHIR
Of course, what else would it be?

GARAK
(matter-of-fact)
That you should never tell the same 
lie twice...

 

The rivalry between him and Dukat, another great character and actor, was class too. 

 

"Shame about the Order, I suppose there won't be much need for your services any more. Looks like you'll be hemming women's dresses for the rest of your life."

 

As said above too, Coombs as Weyoun was incredible. I loved them as a duo in the first few episodes of season six.

 

"The only choice is to eradicate Earth's population."

 

"You can't do that."

 

"Why not?"

 

"Because!" 

 

 

 

 

 

[skend04]

That first episode of the new season was good.

[Section_31]

Thought it was baffling to be honest. The federation is supposed to be gone but that bloke on the base says he's tracking two federation starships in the sector but neither is discovery. 

 

The episode smacked a bit of a review of The Rise of Skywalker where they said the action is designed to move so quickly that you never have time to ask what's going on, because if you did you'd realise none of it makes sense.

 

Also, 'the great burn' where all the dilithyum in the galaxy  - an ore - randomly exploded? What? 

 

Hopefully it gets better but it all felt a bit Picard. Lots of action with bits of science babble that sounded like science but wasn't, which you do get in a lot of new Trek these days sadly: "Deploy the dark matter tractor beams!" "Activate the cold fusion device to cool down that star!" (Er, that's not what dark matter of cold fusion do).

[Numero Veinticinco]

I thought it was the best episode of DSC so far, and actually thought the final scene was one of the best scenes in Trek history. 

 

Two federation ships in a sector doesn't mean the Federation isn't gone. Seems consistent to me. That said, I raised an eyebrow about the dilithium part of The Burn. I figure we will hear more about that. 

[Section_31]

1 minute ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

I thought it was the best episode of DSC so far, and actually thought the final scene was one of the best scenes in Trek history. 

 

Two federation ships in a sector doesn't mean the Federation isn't gone. Seems consistent to me. That said, I raised an eyebrow about the dilithium part of The Burn. I figure we will hear more about that. 

It's been gone for 100 years though who's building and crewing them?

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Section_31 said:

It's been gone for 100 years though who's building and crewing them?

Well, I guess we will see in the upcoming episodes. For all we know, they could be floating with no crew or they could be old ships. What I'm more concerned about is the consistency between earth made vessels and non-earth vessels which might have had a different power source. Also, there should be something to fill the void left by Starfleet and the Federation. I'm not a ship guy but I think the Romulans didn't have dilithium. Like I say, I guess we will find out. 

[Section_31]

5 minutes ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

Well, I guess we will see in the upcoming episodes. For all we know, they could be floating with no crew or they could be old ships. What I'm more concerned about is the consistency between earth made vessels and non-earth vessels which might have had a different power source. Also, there should be something to fill the void left by Starfleet and the Federation. I'm not a ship guy but I think the Romulans didn't have dilithium. Like I say, I guess we will find out. 

Superb geekery there pal, the romulans used forced quantum singularities.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Section_31 said:

Superb geekery there pal, the romulans used forced quantum singularities.

[JagSquared]

I enjoyed it (mainly because I like most trek) but in disco and Picard there does seem to be a dumbing down of the series.

 

Agree with section31 the burn sounds a bit shit - most of our fuel stopped working. its all set up now for discovery with its spore drive to come in and be the game changer as it doesn’t need dilithium. Which seems dumb as why would they have explored the tech it’s not like they would have lost all the data they had.

 

I would say - without knowing the cause and fall out of the burn - Id have liked them to try something bolder for the fall of the federation and say the consensus driven democracy led to too much stagnation as it bloated in size, the numerous wars took it out of them and the expansionist approach (the federation we’re the most aggressive in this regard even if it was via diplomacy rather than conquest) led to increased division, corruption and splintering into factions and the ultimately the break up of the federation.
 

A civil war even if orally told would have been epic. Basically a regression and move away from what made the federation what it was, instead it sounds like an outside event across the galaxy made it harder to get around. 
 

lots of holes in that first episode but it has some potential. Season 2 was masch better than S1 because it had an ensemble cast with Pike and the others so as we see more of the others it should get better. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, JagSquared said:

Agree with section31 the burn sounds a bit shit - most of our fuel stopped working. its all set up now for discovery with its spore drive to come in and be the game changer as it doesn’t need dilithium. Which seems dumb as why would they have explored the tech it’s not like they would have lost all the data they had.

Nah, they classified the entire thing. The spore drive, which doesn’t work without Stamets and his tardigrade DNA, was already heavily classified and that was before everything that came after. I don’t think it’s dumb I think it’s quite a clever way of making it relevant. In fact, I’d have to be a pain and say that most other Trek - especially the older stuff - is dumbed down and this feels like Trek for adults to me. 

As for holes, I don’t really see holes so much as a set up for a story to be told. 

 

[JagSquared]

58 minutes ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

Nah, they classified the entire thing. The spore drive, which doesn’t work without Stamets and his tardigrade DNA, was already heavily classified and that was before everything that came after. I don’t think it’s dumb I think it’s quite a clever way of making it relevant. In fact, I’d have to be a pain and say that most other Trek - especially the older stuff - is dumbed down and this feels like Trek for adults to me. 

As for holes, I don’t really see holes so much as a set up for a story to be told. 

 

 

even if it was heavily classified surely when your main fuel disappears you start looking at the archives to see what else there was. They showed the tech had worked even if it was only with stamets. Surely you’d start looking at making that work. Perhaps they have it’s the first episode after all. 

 

On the spore drive I think that will be the advantage for the discovery otherwise they’d get pummelled by any ship as they are a few hundred years out of date tech wise. 

 

I still think in Picard and Disco they prioritise action over characters, I loved the character driven episodes of other series. I think they are moving with the times which is partly due to how we consume TV these days, streaming allows for more emphasis on a wider arc which does away with the need for self contained episodes which is what I liked about older trek. There also seems to be a desire to blow stuff up each episode which I find a little samey after a while.
 

I disagree that older trek was dumbed down, just take a look at episodes such as “far beyond the stars” or “the visitor” in DS9 or “a measure of a man” in TNG. I can’t see Disco or Picard doing an episode like that these days.

 

On the episode itself it was good to see the Andorians and the orions. Would love their species to be fleshed out. You’d imagine in a world where the major powers don’t appear to be around the Orion syndicate would have a bigger sway. Theres lots of scope which is exciting I just hope they take the time to build the universe a bit more.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

even if it was heavily classified surely when your main fuel disappears you start looking at the archives to see what else there was. They showed the tech had worked even if it was only with stamets. Surely you’d start looking at making that work. Perhaps they have it’s the first episode after all. 

The archives? Everything was expunged. They made this all clear at the end of season 2. 

 

3 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

I disagree that older trek was dumbed down, just take a look at episodes such as “far beyond the stars” or “the visitor” in DS9 or “a measure of a man” in TNG. I can’t see Disco or Picard doing an episode like that these days.

Well, this is where I list a literally hundred episodes for each of those three that are so far away from that standard it's not even funny. I watched Conspiracy last night from TNG. Holy fuck. There's so much stupid, dumb shit in TOS and TNG it's not even funny. Don't get me started on the utter bollocks going on with DS9's Bajoran and their demigod Sisko. Don't get me started on the Ancient Greek Gods being an alien race. Don't get me started on 'because Q'. 

 

As for DSC not doing episodes like that. Discovery has done some absolutely epic episodes. Lethe is great. If Memory Serves is absolutely stellar. The Sound of Thunder is brilliant. 

[JagSquared]

Of course the older series have some poor episodes they were making 24 of them a series after all.
 

Of the ones you listed I liked the Saru focussed one. I think id still take the best of ds9 and TNG over any of the discovery or Picard episodes. 
 

Guess it’s a difference of opinion. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Yeah, for sure. I quite dislike most of DS9, so there's a difference there for sure. TNG goes from the sublime to the absolute ridiculous. I'd take If Memory Servers over anything from DS9, and most of TNG. The Measure of a Man is brilliant though. There's actually a similar episode from VOY that I prefer, but it's one of the best episodes of Star Trek, for sure. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Going back to the dilithium stuff. There's a line in 'Context is for Kings' which says something like 'Dilithium pocket went piezoelectric. Ripped apart the bottom of the mine. Bam. Fifty cons vaporised.', which might just be coincidence but also might be a clue. Piezoelectricity was also mentioned in TNG as a reason a planet (Drema IV) was destroyed. Interesting to see if that turns out to be a thing.

 

Edit: For anybody interest (virtually nobody?) here's a link. 

 

 

[dockers_strike]

19 hours ago, Section_31 said:

Thought it was baffling to be honest. The federation is supposed to be gone but that bloke on the base says he's tracking two federation starships in the sector but neither is discovery. 

 

The episode smacked a bit of a review of The Rise of Skywalker where they said the action is designed to move so quickly that you never have time to ask what's going on, because if you did you'd realise none of it makes sense.

 

Also, 'the great burn' where all the dilithyum in the galaxy  - an ore - randomly exploded? What? 

 

Hopefully it gets better but it all felt a bit Picard. Lots of action with bits of science babble that sounded like science but wasn't, which you do get in a lot of new Trek these days sadly: "Deploy the dark matter tractor beams!" "Activate the cold fusion device to cool down that star!" (Er, that's not what dark matter of cold fusion do).

Im not upto S2 of ST:D yet. But the 'science' or rather make believe science of TOS through to the final film Nemesis is what made Star Trek. As much fantasy as there is in Warp Drive and the Transporter, lots of the other stuff could appear credible.

 

I blame JJ Abrams for a lot of the fantasy stuff that's developed since. The idea of Star Trek 900 years in the future of the popular time line just doesnt do it for me although I'll judge it when I get to see the relevant series.

 

I always thought Voyager stories with the Federation temporal timeship and Captain Braxton a bit meh. It's just getting a bit too much Star Wars although I did enjoy ST:D S1.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Can we not call it STD? For the love of all that is holy. 

[JagSquared]

[johnsusername]

Always preferred Voyager myself. Captain Janeway - now there was a fine woman.

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

21 minutes ago, johnsusername said:

Always preferred Voyager myself. Captain Janeway - now there was a fine woman.

 

 

Voyager is great. Especially from S4. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

Voyager is great. Especially from S4. 

Hmmm,...wonder why that is...? 


(Don't disagree though. The stories and writing got a lot better once Kes & the Kazon fucked off). 

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Hmmm,...wonder why that is...? 


(Don't disagree though. The stories and writing got a lot better once Kes & the Kazon fucked off). 

Oh, yeah, the giant tits don’t hurt. Is there a worse Trek species than the Kazon? Hideous cunts. Jesus was recently arrested for indecent exposure to a minor. Top lass.