Chris Bascombe

[Cath]

I would not sack Rafa without a top class replacement ready and available to step into the breach immediately. There is still too much at stake to leave the club in the hands of a caretaker.

 

That's the crux of the problem though Paul. I have yet to see one name put forward for the job. We have owners who have put the club into debt, have no cash available for new players and doubts hang over the new stadium. They have admitted they sounded out Klinsmann. With the current ownership, getting rid of Rafa will most likely mean a puppet manager and will consign us to mediocrity. Whatever my doubts over Rafa I can see no point in changing manager while more pressing issues need dealing with.

[theRedHorse]

To me, it absolutely defies belief that people continue to criticise everyone bar Rafa. I absolutely love the guy - he is a Liverpool legend - but the fact is that he has made the bed we're lying in now and no-one else. Certainly the pair of cunts at the helm have exacerbated the problem, but this squad is Rafa's, these tactics are Rafa's and the climate inside the dressing room is Rafa's.

 

He has been here nearly four years, spent a fortune in that time and yet the same old problems remain. We lack width, pace, guile and goals and that is exactly the situation that Rafa walked into nearly four years ago. He has signed dozens of poor to middling players and players in positions that aren't a priority - and all in the name of "options". Well how about the option of a couple of genuinely talented attacking players instead of a choice between OK and average? We are mediocre and in danger of being overtaken by Spurs, City, West Ham, Everton, Blackburn, Portsmouth and Newcastle who are all spending more freely than ever and have good managers taking them forward with real momentum.

 

I hope this boardroom issue gets resolved really fucking quickly because there are massive problems on the pitch - massive - and they're becoming a side issue. People being critical of the players for having lost belief in a man who has been repeating the same mistakes for years have simply got their heads in the sand. Who seriously thinks Rafa will spend £40m wisely or move on players he's persisted with this season? I don't.

 

It's sickening to say, but I think we've reached the end of the line if the players are now so resolutely against him. I just hope this oft-mentioned imminent formal bid is forthcoming soon, because what's even more depressing is the thought of the incumbent bastards getting to sack Rafa and - possibly even worse - appointing a new man (God knows what sort of Yes man clown they'd want).

 

Hillsborough aside, this is undoubtedly the worst time I can remember in my 25 years as a Red. This club is in need of revolution - again: in the boardroom, on the pitch and, saddest of all, in the manager's office. Unfortunately, I'm pretty fucking far from optimistic that we're going to get one. I can only hope that Rafa achieves the seemingly impossible and manages to turn this lumbering juggernaut around. I fear the time for that came and went last summer, though.

 

These are sad, sad days to be a Red.

 

Let me ask you something Paul...

 

Have the players, Carra and Gerrard included, been giving their all for the shirt these last couple of months?

 

If not, does their "losing faith in their manager" excuse this?

 

If Rafa was "allowed" to play Gerrard on the right, do you think this season would be any different?

 

 

genuine questions...

[Paul]

Its aimed at a large number of people Paul, and you're correct in assuming it's partly leveled at you. I can't fucking believe what is going on to our club right now on every level, it beggars belief. I do not see any benefit in sacking Rafa right now, or at the end of the season. I believe that ceasing to back the manager (and I feel the same way about every player in a red shirt, regardless of quality) is a fool's errand. Call it blind loyalty if you will, but I think that's what supporting this club is about. I respect you greatly mate, I really do. I just can't believe that people, yourself included, would see us sack the manager based on what's going on right now, replacement or not. It is just madness to me.

 

And that's fair enough: we disagree. Saying "fuck off" to anyone who disagrees with you though, is both pointless and rude.

 

My loyalty lies with Liverpool Football Club before everything else. I like and admire Rafael Benitez immensely and desperately wish we weren't where we are. However, this is where we were heading even before The Twats took charge. Rafa has bought badly (on the whole) and alienated the players with his confusing decision making. Leadership requires credibility and if your methods do not bare fruit then you don't have any. As for the trophies he's won, I don't dismiss them - but they happened a long time ago. The club has been in a downward spiral on the pitch since the 82 point finish - and that is a fact.

 

I am very worried that we will miss out on CL qualification this season and we certainly won't progress past Inter in this year's competition playing like we have for most of the campaign. With the debt those two twats have burdened us with, it is unthinkable what may happen if we miss out on the money Europe brings. In my opinion it is foolish in the extreme to seperate the crises on and off the pitch. They've happened for very different reasons, but they are interlinked with each other and both have potentially catastrophic ramifications for the future of the club.

 

I say again - I would only change the manager now if a proven replacement could take over straight away and give the players a lift. I can't see that happening, so I assume Rafa is here for the rest of the season at least. Clearly it is possible he could turn it around, but I don't see any signs of him doing so. I think we'll drop at least six points against the top three and even more with the inevitable draws that will happen elsewhere. Look at the table and then reflect on our performances all season and for much of last - missing out on Europe is a very real possibility.

[Paul]

Let me ask you something Paul...

 

Have the players, Carra and Gerrard included, been giving their all for the shirt these last couple of months?

 

If not, does their "losing faith in their manager" excuse this?

 

If Rafa was "allowed" to play Gerrard on the right, do you think this season would be any different?

 

 

genuine questions...

 

I actually don't think Carra and Gerrard have played too shabbily this season. In fact I've been baffled by the embarrassing "Carra's past it" shit that has been flying around and Gerrard, who is pretty fucking far from being my favourite, has been banging the goals in all season.

 

The bottom line is that the manager is responsible for picking and motivating the players. It's in his actual job description. If they aren't performing as well as they should, he has to take responsibility. That's what leadership is.

[Paul]

That's the crux of the problem though Paul. I have yet to see one name put forward for the job. We have owners who have put the club into debt, have no cash available for new players and doubts hang over the new stadium. They have admitted they sounded out Klinsmann. With the current ownership, getting rid of Rafa will most likely mean a puppet manager and will consign us to mediocrity. Whatever my doubts over Rafa I can see no point in changing manager while more pressing issues need dealing with.

 

We're in agreement about not changing for changing's sake, then Cath. However, don't you accept my point that the crises on the pitch and off it are intrinsically linked? What happens with the current owners in place and the debt they've burdened us with if we miss out on Europe? That is a very real short term fear that has its roots on the pitch. We could end up having to sell players simply to service debt if we miss out on CL money and where will we finish in the league then?

 

For me, finishing fourth is just as important as getting The Twats out. To simply ignore the issues with the team is to miss half the problem, in my view. Obviously a change of owners is a massive priority, but I'm scared that that rat Hicks will only leap off the ship just seconds before it sinks. CL money is the lifeboat that could save us from drowning.

[Rashid]

b) Carra should remember that under Houllier he was playing full-back every week, that Igor and Diao were picked at centre back ahead of him, and that both Eriksson and McLaren only used him there as a last resort. In fact, he's only had one manager in his career who's ever shown any faith in him as a centre half. The one he's got now.

 

That is a very good point Chops and I agree wholeheartidly. Before Rafa came in I actually wanted Carra to be a squad player and for us to sign a fast centre back who could pass the ball. Carra for me was always an accident waiting to happen at centre back, that is until Rafa made him into a top class centre back.

 

But things have moved on now, Carra IS a top class centre back and the best one we have at the club. Playing him at full back to accomodate Skrtel is not on, it is tinkering for no reason at all. I'd rather he rested Carra rather than do that as Finnan was fit.

 

Good post there Paul and looking at things objectively I'd say that given the great managers our rivals have and the money some of them spend it is not fair to expect Rafa to winning the CL every season. However, Arsenal have proved that with much less money, footballers who are not much better than ours etc that you can mould a team that plays good football and challenges for the league.

 

Although we accept that the manager hasn't had massive money but issues seems to be that he replaces a mid quality player with another of the same standard in about 4 out of every 5 transfers. He isn't close to his players which when the trenches are in means that they, the players, won't be 100% fighting for the manager. Given the amount of goals and MOM performances Gerrard has had this season, to say he hasn't been performing is a nonsense.

 

Now we have players out of positon, a poor style of play and a team divided between supporting the manager and not. The issue for me are that the owners have fucked us up and destabilised the manager but Rafa is also to blame. Not only has he complained about money like no other manager I can think of, he also has a team which doesn't seem to have a clue out there on the pitch.

 

Wanting him sacked at the end of the season isn't an outlandish statement given the situation.

[spider-neil]

Let me ask you something Paul...

 

Have the players, Carra and Gerrard included, been giving their all for the shirt these last couple of months?

 

If not, does their "losing faith in their manager" excuse this?

 

If Rafa was "allowed" to play Gerrard on the right, do you think this season would be any different?

 

 

genuine questions...

 

carra has been average for months, the 'world class' thread is laughable now. carra isn't even the best defender at liverpool sami has consistantly been better than him game after game.

[Cath]

We're in agreement about not changing for changing's sake, then Cath. However, don't you accept my point that the crises on the pitch and off it are intrinsically linked? What happens with the current owners in place and the debt they've burdened us with if we miss out on Europe? That is a very real short term fear that has its roots on the pitch. We could end up having to sell players simply to service debt if we miss out on CL money and where will we finish in the league then?

 

For me, finishing fourth is just as important as getting The Twats out. To simply ignore the issues with the team is to miss half the problem, in my view. Obviously a change of owners is a massive priority, but I'm scared that that rat Hicks will only leap off the ship just seconds before it sinks. CL money is the lifeboat that could save us from drowning.

 

I admit that I too am petrified of the consequences of not getting the CL money. I've just read the Kaiser's stirring call to arms on the other thread and while it's an excellent sentiment I wish I was as confident of 4th place as he is. I just don't see what options we have. A caretaker manager who would motivate the players enough to find a run of form enough to get 4th? We're caught between a rock and a hard place. To me getting rid of Rafa will strengthen Hick's power base at the club and that is too high a price to pay.

[jackofdk]

 

But things have moved on now, Carra IS a top class centre back and the best one we have at the club. Playing him at full back to accomodate Skrtel is not on, it is tinkering for no reason at all.

 

 

So bedding in a new signing against weak opposition is not a good enough reason to play Carra out of position?

:wallbutt:

[spider-neil]

in regards to rafa what is happening now is largly his fault, the league is mostly about momentum unlike europe which is mostly about tactics.

when you are winning you go longs runs of wins and like wise with draws and loses I take you all the way back to the first four games of the season where the team was playing unbelievable well and then rafa decided to mix things up with the side against portsmouth away (5th league game of the season ffs) and brought the momentum to shuddering hult.

 

but to be fair he also lost agger (imho KEY to rafa's tactics) and alonso so obviously this didn't help.

[Paul]

Turning on arguably the greatest servant this club has had since Kenny because he's had a 7/10 season and might be fed up with the direction the club is going in (and justifiably so, too) is a disgrace, in my opinion.

[Paul]

I admit that I too am petrified of the consequences of not getting the CL money. I've just read the Kaiser's stirring call to arms on the other thread and while it's an excellent sentiment I wish I was as confident of 4th place as he is. I just don't see what options we have. A caretaker manager who would motivate the players enough to find a run of form enough to get 4th? We're caught between a rock and a hard place. To me getting rid of Rafa will strengthen Hick's power base at the club and that is too high a price to pay.

 

Me neither. The only thing we can do is hope that Rafa can turn things round.

[spider-neil]

Turning on arguably the greatest servant this club has had since Kenny because he's had a 7/10 season and might be fed up with the direction the club is going in is a disgrace, in my opinion.

 

who's questioning carra's character I just think he has been average this season so if he were to start point fingers I would find that a little strange. people in glass houses and all that.

[Anny Road]

Bang on the money Paul.

[Alias75]

Rafa cant win now, if the players have stopped playing for him the results will be poor because you can't win games at this level with 3 or 4 that arent giving everything. I don't care if the players have lost faith, when your playing for Liverpool you give everything you have, not least for the fans that pay your wages and want to see the team win.

 

The only thing Rafa can do is identify those players that aren't busting a gut for him and leave them out of the team, personally id rather have 11 players that are all pulling in the right direction even if that means players like Gerrard and Carragher don't play.

 

Are Gerrard, Carragher and others playing poorly on purpose? I wouldnt go that far but i certainly think theres 4 or 5 players that arent busting a gut at the moment and if a new manager came in certain players would find an extra 10-15% and thats just not acceptable.

 

Im coming to the conclusion that selling Stevie may be in the best interests of this club, hes a great player but has too much influence and overblown self importance.

[Anny Road]

Remember when Gullit left Shearer out. If Rafa was to do the same with Gerrrard he would be gone just as fast.

[Cardie]

Turning on arguably the greatest servant this club has had since Kenny because he's had a 7/10 season and might be fed up with the direction the club is going in (and justifiably so, too) is a disgrace, in my opinion.

 

And turning against, without doubt, the greatest manager since Kenny for the same reason isn't?

[Cardie]

Remember when Gullit left Shearer out. If Rafa was to do the same with Gerrrard he would be gone just as fast.

 

He wouldn't.

 

The stick he get's from supporters would triple but they wouldn't sack him for it, they wouldn't see it as a big statement.

[Captain]

That's a fucking damning report. Unfair on the whole too, in my opinion. If that's come from Carra then i'd be very very dissapointed.

 

Rafa's not perfect and everyone has their doubts right now, but that report is way over the top and damaging to Rafa, a man who has carried himself impeccably in amongst this shit storm of a season, in the extreme.

 

If he makes a decision that proves to be a mistake then fine say it like it is, but all this "local hero's" shit just becauise Carar played at right back and our "captain" has played on the wing in the past is vomit inducing. I love Carra but if that has come from him he needs to shut the fuck up because a large reason for where he is today (a world class centre back) is thanks to Rafa.

 

As for the Steven Gerrard on the right shit, Bascombe's changed his tune and has a short memory because he defended Rafa for that for a long time over the whole media wankfest about Stevie being on the wing. Stevie's not exactly been at his best despite being in the middle this season. Mark fuckign Noble had him off the other night. You are privalleged to play for this club no matter how good you are, get the fuck on with it.

 

Regardless, it's now obvious that extremely powerful people inside the club (Carra and Stevie, the yanks) and Chris who has so much power in the press seem to have nailed their colours to the anti Rafa mast that has included 99% of the media from day one. It's probably a matter of time and if I was Rafa i'd fuck off at the end of the season and take some other more deserving club on to greatness. The way he's been treated by so many is a fucking disgrace and that has nothing to do with his rotation, slections, signing s or anything. From day one he's held his dignity in the face of so much shit and brought so much joy and respect back to this club and look how he has and is being treated.

 

We are in one of the darkest moments in this club history right now. It's a sad fucking day.

 

That match report couldn't be more unhelpful to the club at a time when fans are trying to unite to force the yanks out.

 

Rafa is the only person at the club prepared to publicly stand up against the yanks and now Basco has publicly lined carra and gerrard up against him. Marvelous.

 

You know what? Fuck this shit. I've fucking had it. Gloves are off now.

 

We have a manager with a proven record of WINNING big trophies. 2 La Ligas, 1 European Cup, 1 UEFA Cup, and 1 FA Cup - all in the last 6 years.

 

We have a manager who is hailed by many, and rightly so, as being a tactical genius.

 

This is a guy who has turned Liverpool around into being a force, a real genuine honest to fucking goodness force in Europe. Are we nervous ahead of the Inter tie? Yes. You can also bet your bottom dollar that Inter are shitting a brick at having to play Benitez in a 2 leg Euro tie.

 

I would kindly like to remind you that, despite our history, we have been - for the best part of 15 years (with the honourable exception of 01) - plainly average. How the FUCK have so many Liverpool supporters developed amnesia? Something in the half time beer?

 

THE ONLY FUCKING REASON WE ARE JUMPING UP AND DOWN AT THE START OF THE SEASON, THINKING WE HAVE A CHANCE OF THE LEAGUE, IS BECAUSE RAFA BENITEZ TURNED LIVERPOOL FROM A DISTINCTLY AVERAGE TEAM, TO EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS - AND RUNNERS UP, IN THREE YEARS.

 

So we're not going to win the League this year. Well, get fucking over it. With all the shit Rafa has had to deal with behind the scenes - ON HIS FUCKING OWN BY THE LOOKS OF IT - its not surprising.

 

I'm not one of the "Gerrard is a cunt" brigade. But honestly, if Stevie, or Carra for that matter, think that THEY know better how to get no.19 to Anfield this season, then I'm sorry - they sound about as clueless about footie as Lawro, Redknapp, and many other ex-players.

 

Rafa is the manager. He is not God. He makes mistakes. Whisper it quietly, but Shanks made mistakes too. Fuck it, Bob Paisley misjudged how quickly he needed to rebuild the late 70s side - so we fell from double champions in 79 and 80, to 5th in 81. And in 82, we were lagging far behind by Christmas.

 

But you know what. Bob knew he had misjudged it in 81. He fixed it. We snagged the League in 82, with a great comeback.

 

Because Bob was a top manager.

 

And so is Rafa. If Steve G, Carra, or anyone suddenly thinks that someone who could drag an average Liverpool to Champions League finals year after year is not - THEN THEY'RE WRONG. We are NOT going back to the Spice Boys days. The manager is the boss. The players shut the fuck up and play. The rest of us get behind the manager, and support the team.

 

Thems the rules. Follow them, or fuck off.

 

Ok, I rather overused the f word - but I guess going through the emotional release of finally getting those 3 points, and then reading this thread just put me over the edge. Gun. Point down. See own foot. Shoot.

 

Right now, we as a club (and by club, I mean the supporters too) are at a seminal moment in our history. You can almost taste it. Even though we grew up on a diet of winning everything in sight - we were always about more than just winning.

 

ManUre are a great club (arghh - I feel dirty). But there is no ManUre way. Same with Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, etc, etc. Liverpool are not the same. Its hard to define, and it does come across as being egotistical - but I really believe it. Theres a reason why we are still regarded the way we are, 18 years after our last League title.

 

At LFC, there is one leader. And its not the owner. The owners are there to look after the club, to nurture its future financial prospects, and to make sure that they have the right man as manager. To be seen, but not heard.

 

The manager is the leader. And the players follow.

 

We as fans give the benefit of the doubt, and shout on ANY player who pulls on the red shirt. And a select few, we turn into demi Gods. But we never, ever stand for anyone jumping out of place.

 

The manager is the boss.

 

Should managers be judged? Of course. But there's a time and place for everything. In the middle of a season of such turmoil - thats not the time.

 

Almost as much as the owners scare me - I'm starting to get somewhat alarmed by some of our support, who are developing the "what have you done for me lately" attitude.

 

Let me ask a question. What do we lose if we don't win the League this season? What do we really lose, if we challenge, but don't win the League next season?

 

You know what we lose? Just one season.

 

And contrast that with what we lose, when we turn into a club who continuously demands success, at any cost, at any price - and assasinates its own if it doesn't get it - NOW.

 

You know what we lose there? Everything. Everything which made us just a little different from every other club. Go down that road, and we'll end up another Newcastle or Spurs, changing our manager after every bad patch of form.

 

Keep it simple. That always used to be the Liverpool ethos. From the boot room, to the 5 a side training, to match days. To how the club was run off the field. Keep it simple.

 

Once we lost that famous boot room (where succession was almost predestined), then the selection of the next manager was always going to be more risky, You never know if the new guy has the qualities you need, or is able to empathise with the club and its traditions.

 

Well, with Rafa, he took us to the European summit, and nearly repeated that feat 2 years (and 1 FA Cup) later. Its easy to be blase about that now - but dammit, if you had offered that to us in the 90's, we would have bitten your hand off.

 

We have a leader with the right qualities. And dammit, we have someone with the right sympathies. You know he hurts after every defeat, even if some of our highly paid players might laugh in the tunnel afterwards (hint, Kewell).

 

You all know that Fergie was given time, and Wenger too. And yet, despite knowing it - if Rafa doesn't deliver no.19 yesterday, he's a failure? Chop him now, and you can kiss goodbye to any future aspirations of getting a "Shanks-like" figure in. Because they won't be given the necessary time.

 

With the nightmarish change of ownership we have just gone through, we have all gotten a scary glimpse of just what its might be like if we ever game up our principles and became "just another club". Its been a sobering experience (and hopefully, a temporary one). If we come out of it - still recognisably Liverpool - on the other end, we'll be stronger for the experience.

 

Same with the manager.

 

The above are all spot on, top posts.

 

It seems the club I grew up supporting is on the edge of collapse. There is only one thing missing, Rafa Benítez handing in his resignation.

 

Luckily for us, his love for the club and the fans probably prohibits him from doing it.

 

When you walk through a storm...

[Alias75]

Remember when Gullit left Shearer out. If Rafa was to do the same with Gerrrard he would be gone just as fast.

 

Dont you find that worrying that 1 player has so much influence?

[coop]

Wonder what the reaction would be if Rafa got the sack and we appointed Scholari who then put Gerrard on the right and Carra full back.

 

Like ive said no player is bigger then the club and whilst Rafa is the manager they play where they are instructed to.

 

I know its a bygone era but what do you think Shanklys reaction would be if one of his players didnt like playing in the position he was picked for.

 

Let me get this clear to people i think Rafa gets it wrong. His tactics are great at stopping the opposition but as a team he doesnt know how to go about breaking the opponents down.

 

I have to be honest as a club it was probably under Roy Evans the last time i actually enjoyed a series of games we played because we had passed the ball well and took the game to the opposition.

 

Sacking Rafa and appointing an attacking manager such as Hiddink or Scholari in the summer would be understandable (unless of course we go on and win the Champs Lge) but for me the players should always give 100% for both the club and for the manager.

 

If the dressing room wasnt fucked it is now after Rafa will read the NOTW article.

[Rashid]

Wonder what the reaction would be if Rafa got the sack and we appointed Scholari who then put Gerrard on the right and Carra full back.

 

Like ive said no player is bigger then the club and whilst Rafa is the manager they play where they are instructed to.

 

I know its a bygone era but what do you think Shanklys reaction would be if one of his players didnt like playing in the position he was picked for.

 

Let me get this clear to people i think Rafa gets it wrong. His tactics are great at stopping the opposition but as a team he doesnt know how to go about breaking the opponents down.

 

I have to be honest as a club it was probably under Roy Evans the last time i actually enjoyed a series of games we played because we had passed the ball well and took the game to the opposition.

 

Sacking Rafa and appointing an attacking manager such as Hiddink or Scholari in the summer would be understandable (unless of course we go on and win the Champs Lge) but for me the players should always give 100% for both the club and for the manager.

 

If the dressing room wasnt fucked it is now after Rafa will read the NOTW article.

 

Good post but why would you play a world class central midfielder on the right to accomodate Sissoko? Why would you put a top class centre back on the right full back position? Positions both players hate?

 

Would Fergie play Ferdinand at full back? Would he play Scholes right midfield?

 

He is the benchmark.

[Anny Road]

Dont you find that worrying that 1 player has so much influence?

 

Yes

[Mr T]

Not a pleasant article. If the players have turned on Rafa then that's the end of his reign here. Couple of side points-

 

I stuck up for Bascombe but I won't be doing that again, implying that the 2000 people protest was to get Rafa out is a shithouse trick.

 

If Carra is one of these unnamed players, then he is a fool. Rafa has given him his big chance here. He's a poor footballer but an excellent blocker, this season he has been the weak link in our defence.

 

Gerrard needs shifting on simple as for me, we're going to be like how Newcastle were with Shearer if we keep him around for too long; he's going to overshadow any manager we get in unless they have huge cajones on them (which Rafa did).

 

Rafa has made mistakes for sure but I doubt he's been able to think straight half the time, I'll remember the good he has done here. He has brought us top players in and his 'duds' can be easily shifted on. In terms of the playing squad he has left us in a decent position. If the Yanks can be driven out then a new manager has plenty to work with. If they stay then this dip of form we are experiencing now will be the norm.

[chrisbonnie]

Good post but why would you play a world class central midfielder on the right to accomodate Sissoko? Why would you put a top class centre back on the right full back position? Positions both players hate?

 

Would Fergie play Ferdinand at full back? Would he play Scholes right midfield?

 

He is the benchmark.

 

he`s not a world class centre midfielder Rashid, he`s a world class player yes, but not a world class centre midfielder, id have had someone like Roy Keane or Viera over him anyday of the week, he lacks a massive amount of discpline, why cant he forge a real "world class" pairing with any of our centre midfielders then???