Racism in Southern America..

[aRdja]

Meltdown is getting closer. Should be any minute now.

[Neil G]

13 hours ago, BeefStroganoff said:

You mean like giving them jobs based on their skin colour? I mean you defended the Athletic handing out job apps to BAME candidates only. Like i said, you lot are a bunch of nutters in self loathing.

I didn’t defend the Athletic’s decision. I don’t know enough about the Athletic, the roles or the reasoning behind the decision to pass comment.

 

I made a general statement about why it can be appropriate and beneficial for media organisations to reserve certain positions solely for BAME candidates (NOT to favour BAME candidates over white candidates based on skin colour when they’ve applied for the same job, that’s something different). I mostly had national newspapers and news outlets in mind, but it could also be applicable to sports journalism if an outlet wants to report on BAME issues and perspectives in sport, and believes that people from a BAME background will be able to do that more effectively.

 

Was that the only thing that marked me out as a bellend, or was there something else?

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, aRdja said:

Meltdown is getting closer. Should be any minute now.

I think he hit peak meltdown yesterday afternoon. 

 

 

 

We need the Rev back 

[Neil G]

13 hours ago, A Red said:

You just cant help yourself....telling me i have implicit bias, that us white people should tell them and that I need to educate myself. You have probably already got me down as a racist. I am trying to broaden the debate.

 

I am not denying that racism has effected the black community. It has effected the chinese community, why do you think the chinese tend to perform better economically? 

 

13 hours ago, A Red said:

Really? All he did was avoid talking about another aspect of the debate. He did it well though.

I didn’t avoid it. I chose not to engage with it in the terms you set it out in because I didn’t think they were helpful to the debate, and I told you why.

 

I don’t think you’re a racist, and I think you’re approaching this debate in good faith. But the particular way you worded your original question - “can anyone offer anything that the black community can do to improve their plight” - was really quite patronising and lazy, as if black people themselves hadn’t already considered that question at length and answered it, and those answers weren’t readily available for you to look up. I know that won’t have been your intention, but that’s how it came across.

 

The reason I jumped on it is that I have an instinctive aversion to members of privileged groups discussing and deciding things about disadvantaged people without seeking their input. I spent just shy of 15 years in the charity sector, working and volunteering, and it was jarring to repeatedly see well-meaning people make statements and decisions about or on behalf of service users / beneficiaries without consulting them or trying to understand them. I was guilty of it myself sometimes without realising it. It stung when I was called out on it, but I always tried to not get defensive and instead listen, learn, reflect and do better. I still fuck up now and will inevitably continue to do so, but I always try to think before speaking / posting and do my homework when necessary.

 

Your revised question about differences in attainment between ethnic groups is perfectly reasonable. I’m not going to attempt to answer it because I don’t know enough about it, it’s a hugely complex subject and I haven’t really had cause to engage with it as yet. I’m in the education sector now but in a very white part of the country.

[aRdja]

20 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I think he hit peak meltdown yesterday afternoon. 

 

 

We need the Rev back 

Nah just wait a bit, he’ll do “woe is me” paragraphs... it was worth the wait the last time. Let’s hope he’ll live up to the hype this time.

[Section_31]

30 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I think he hit peak meltdown yesterday afternoon. 

 

 

 

We need the Rev back 

For a laying on of negs.

[VladimirIlyich]

37 minutes ago, Neil G said:

I didn’t defend the Athletic’s decision. I don’t know enough about the Athletic, the roles or the reasoning behind the decision to pass comment.

 

I made a general statement about why it can be appropriate and beneficial for media organisations to reserve certain positions solely for BAME candidates (NOT to favour BAME candidates over white candidates based on skin colour when they’ve applied for the same job, that’s something different). I mostly had national newspapers and news outlets in mind, but it could also be applicable to sports journalism if an outlet wants to report on BAME issues and perspectives in sport, and believes that people from a BAME background will be able to do that more effectively.

 

Was that the only thing that marked me out as a bellend, or was there something else?

As I understand these things (though that's not a lot to be honest) aren't jobs like this,not necessarily the Athletic one,meant to guarantee interview places for BAME and or other ethnic minorities? A guaranteed amount of interview places to qualified ethnic minority candidates?

[A Red]

45 minutes ago, Neil G said:

 

I didn’t avoid it. I chose not to engage with it in the terms you set it out in because I didn’t think they were helpful to the debate, and I told you why.

 

I don’t think you’re a racist, and I think you’re approaching this debate in good faith. But the particular way you worded your original question - “can anyone offer anything that the black community can do to improve their plight” - was really quite patronising and lazy, as if black people themselves hadn’t already considered that question at length and answered it, and those answers weren’t readily available for you to look up. I know that won’t have been your intention, but that’s how it came across.

 

The reason I jumped on it is that I have an instinctive aversion to members of privileged groups discussing and deciding things about disadvantaged people without seeking their input. I spent just shy of 15 years in the charity sector, working and volunteering, and it was jarring to repeatedly see well-meaning people make statements and decisions about or on behalf of service users / beneficiaries without consulting them or trying to understand them. I was guilty of it myself sometimes without realising it. It stung when I was called out on it, but I always tried to not get defensive and instead listen, learn, reflect and do better. I still fuck up now and will inevitably continue to do so, but I always try to think before speaking / posting and do my homework when necessary.

 

Your revised question about differences in attainment between ethnic groups is perfectly reasonable. I’m not going to attempt to answer it because I don’t know enough about it, it’s a hugely complex subject and I haven’t really had cause to engage with it as yet. I’m in the education sector now but in a very white part of the country.

Fair enough you didnt see my revised question, I did realise quite quickly i had worded it wrongly, it was ill thought out. This is a minefield, as I mentioned earlier, there are those primed ready to scream "racist" thereby shutting the debate down. I'm happy to say that you are not one of them.

 

I too am involved in the charity sector, in my spare time and just a little bit with Shelterbox, I shall take more notice of my language in future!

[Red Phoenix]

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

They're burning white kids in Dixie ! 

[Dr Nowt]

1 hour ago, Neil G said:

I always tried to not get defensive and instead listen, learn, reflect and do better. 

I have a ton of respect for that post in general mate, but think this line perfectly sums up what someone like myself sees my role as, when a group who’s suffered constant oppression is speaking about/reacting to it. Knowing when you should take a backseat on such an issue and just learn something from those most directly affected is always a helpful start.

 

The arrogance of too many white people (or men, when for example the subject being focused on is the industrialised sexual harassment of women) on this issue even now (not aimed at you @A Red) is quite something to see.
 

Particularly the mindbendingly stupid and offensive stuff about keeping black people annoyed about the subject by focusing on it. Oh yeah, if there is one thing a black person requires for them to have an opinion on their mistreatment down the centuries, it’s the tacit permission of liberal white people to feel outraged and get politicised about it.

 

Fuck sake.

[Strontium]

I doubt that the average black person would put censoring Fawlty Towers and erasing Gladstone from history on their list of priorities. I would question how much of this stuff is actually coming from the black community, and how much of it is the usual bandwagon jumpers using the important issue of systemic racism to spark a culture war.

[Bjornebye]

Its the femininists

[AngryOfTuebrook]

48 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

I doubt that the average black person would put censoring Fawlty Towers and erasing Gladstone from history on their list of priorities. I would question how much of this stuff is actually coming from the black community, and how much of it is the usual bandwagon jumpers using the important issue of systemic racism to spark a culture war.

The "offending" scene in Fawlty Towers equates racist language with being an unhinged daft dotard.  Nowt wrong with that at all.  If you really wanted to take offence with Fawlty Towers, the insulting stereotype of a Spanish waiter is front and centre every episode.

 

As for Gladstone, Baden Powell, Churchill, etc. you have to ask what the statues are commemorating; respectively, being a long-serving Prime Minister, founding the Boy Scouts and being the wartime PM.  Whatever else those people may have done, the statues aren't there to celebrate those things.

 

The bloke in Bristol and the one in East London (as far as I can see) did nothing except profit from slavery.  Those two can fuck off.  

 

The statues reflect on what society, in general, thinks is worth commemorating.  They are put on a pedestal, so you can literally look up to them and say "nice one!"  I think it's fair to say that, most of us, would consider leading the country through the war and founding the Boy Scouts are things people can still look up to, but slavery isn't.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

58 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 a culture war.

Serious question - what does this phrase mean?

[Section_31]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The "offending" scene in Fawlty Towers equates racist language with being an unhinged daft dotard.  Nowt wrong with that at all.  If you really wanted to take offence with Fawlty Towers, the insulting stereotype of a Spanish waiter is front and centre every episode.

 

As for Gladstone, Baden Powell, Churchill, etc. you have to ask what the statues are commemorating; respectively, being a long-serving Prime Minister, founding the Boy Scouts and being the wartime PM.  Whatever else those people may have done, the statues aren't there to celebrate those things.

 

The bloke in Bristol and the one in East London (as far as I can see) did nothing except profit from slavery.  Those two can fuck off.  

 

The statues reflect on what society, in general, thinks is worth commemorating.  They are put on a pedestal, so you can literally look up to them and say "nice one!"  I think it's fair to say that, most of us, would consider leading the country through the war and founding the Boy Scouts are things people can still look up to, but slavery isn't.

Spot on all that.

[A Red]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The "offending" scene in Fawlty Towers equates racist language with being an unhinged daft dotard.  Nowt wrong with that at all.  If you really wanted to take offence with Fawlty Towers, the insulting stereotype of a Spanish waiter is front and centre every episode.

 

As for Gladstone, Baden Powell, Churchill, etc. you have to ask what the statues are commemorating; respectively, being a long-serving Prime Minister, founding the Boy Scouts and being the wartime PM.  Whatever else those people may have done, the statues aren't there to celebrate those things.

 

The bloke in Bristol and the one in East London (as far as I can see) did nothing except profit from slavery.  Those two can fuck off.  

 

The statues reflect on what society, in general, thinks is worth commemorating.  They are put on a pedestal, so you can literally look up to them and say "nice one!"  I think it's fair to say that, most of us, would consider leading the country through the war and founding the Boy Scouts are things people can still look up to, but slavery isn't.

Nice one, well said

[Bobby Hundreds]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Serious question - what does this phrase mean?

 

[Strontium]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Serious question - what does this phrase mean?

 

Wikipedia says it's "a cultural conflict between social groups and the struggle for dominance of their values, beliefs, and practices. It commonly refers to hot-button topics on which there is general societal disagreement and polarization in societal values is seen". They took the words right out of my mouth.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Wikipedia says it's "a cultural conflict between social groups and the struggle for dominance of their values, beliefs, and practices. It commonly refers to hot-button topics on which there is general societal disagreement and polarization in societal values is seen". They took the words right out of my mouth.

Yeah, probably is a fair bit of that going on; people shouting about stuff that doesn't really matter, just for the sake of shouting.

 

I'm surprised to see UKTV jumping to it, though.  Have any of these TV channels and streaming services actually received criticism for showing the programmes that they are now pulling?  Or are they just acting out of a misguided desire to be seen as being right-on?  Or (worse) a - hopefully misguided - fear that there'd be some sort of social media lynch-mob raised against them if they didn't?

[SasaS]

I think it is not just culture war, it is again this idea that there is some inherent racism, in white people of course, that racism and colonialism are products of ideological / cultural conditioning, not that cultural racism comes as justification for oppression and colonization, which are mostly economically conditioned. The belief is, you need to culturally reprogram the white man and than he will not be racist, not that if you remove the economic incentive for racism (fear of competition in lower classes, economic gain from oppression among the elites), it will transform itself into some more or less unpleasant but ultimately benign form of cultural competition (French as arrogant cheese eating surrender monkeys with poor hygiene, Germans as unfunny, unimaginative robots that goose step and shout, stupid obese gun obsessed Americans etc.).

 

In the US, it seems It's not segregated housing to defend property prices, which then helps create inadequate education systems leading to the vicious circle of inferior job opportunities and widespread culture of expecting / accepting limited possibilities, no, it's because all the main characters in Friends are white.

Having said that, statues of slave traders in the UK - really? How was that not taking the piss?

[Dave D]

27 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Yeah, probably is a fair bit of that going on; people shouting about stuff that doesn't really matter, just for the sake of shouting.

 

I'm surprised to see UKTV jumping to it, though.  Have any of these TV channels and streaming services actually received criticism for showing the programmes that they are now pulling?  Or are they just acting out of a misguided desire to be seen as being right-on?  Or (worse) a - hopefully misguided - fear that there'd be some sort of social media lynch-mob raised against them if they didn't?

They are falling over themselves to find something to apologise for. Im sure they are busy today furiously scanning Only Fools and Horses,One foot in the Grave, Blackadder etc- must be a treasure trove of covert implied racism in there somewhere    

[BeefStroganoff]

Seeing them boarding up the Cenotaph. Well words fail me.

[VladimirIlyich]

2 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

Seeing them boarding up the Cenotaph. Well words fail me.

Boarding up why?

[Dave D]

2 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Boarding up why?

The militant student unions and their hammerite spray paint were forecast for the weekend.