Economics for idiots

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6 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I've missed the bit where anybody has said they wanted to raise taxes because they hate the wealthy. Perhaps you could point that part out?

 

In fairness to Boss, he was engaging in conversation with AoT, who said he was ''inclined to agree with the 19th Century writer who argued "By taxing estates heavily at death the State marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life.'" '

 

It's not hatred, but it's not exactly implying an endearing opinion of the wealthy.

 

And besides, Boss said "dislike and spite", not hatred.

 

Hatred or love, I don't think anyone seems against rich people paying their full whack of dues.

 

 

[Jose Jones]

41 minutes ago, skaro said:

 

In fairness to Boss, he was engaging in conversation with AoT, who said he was ''inclined to agree with the 19th Century writer who argued "By taxing estates heavily at death the State marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life.'" '

 

It's not hatred, but it's not exactly implying an endearing opinion of the wealthy.

 

And besides, Boss said "dislike and spite", not hatred.

 

Hatred or love, I don't think anyone seems against rich people paying their full whack of dues.

 

 

Yeah, Boss is.  He wants society to create billionaires and slaves so that future generations can have better buildings.  The old ancient Egyptian model.

The billionaires may well have been aliens though in that case, rather like the lizards we have today.

[s(k)aturation]

5 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Yeah, Boss is.  He wants society to create billionaires and slaves so that future generations can have better buildings.  The old ancient Egyptian model.

The billionaires may well have been aliens though in that case, rather like the lizards we have today.

 

 

The Pyramids are splendid though...

 

 

 

[TheBitch]

Be sound if Jeff Bezos actually paid the tax he was supposed to. 

[Boss]

2 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

Yeah, Boss is.  He wants society to create billionaires and slaves so that future generations can have better buildings.  The old ancient Egyptian model.

The billionaires may well have been aliens though in that case, rather like the lizards we have today.

 

 

[Jairzinho]

2 hours ago, TheBitch said:

Be sound if Jeff Bezos actually paid the tax he was supposed to. 

Oh, another Marxist.

[aRdja]

Do you know of a country with this universal income tax system that Boss is proposing, in place? I’ve lived and worked in two countries and my parents live and work in another, all three countries have a progressive tax system in place.

[Jose Jones]

13 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Do you know of a country with this universal income tax system that Boss is proposing, in place? I’ve lived and worked in two countries and my parents live and work in another, all three countries have a progressive tax system in place.

Yeah, Abkhazia, Artsakh, South Ossetia and Transnistria all have flat rates of tax.

 

[Boss]

1 hour ago, viRdjil said:

Do you know of a country with this universal income tax system that Boss is proposing, in place? I’ve lived and worked in two countries and my parents live and work in another, all three countries have a progressive tax system in place.

Hang on, when have I proposed a universal income tax system?

 

What's going on here?

[aRdja]

19 minutes ago, Boss said:

Hang on, when have I proposed a universal income tax system?

 

What's going on here?

Aren’t you arguing against progressive tax systems? They punish the rich and successful, etc.

[Boss]

17 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Aren’t you arguing against progressive tax systems? They punish the rich and successful, etc.

 

No. Every tax we've discussed is already progressive.

[deiseach]

You know who thought progressive taxation was a good idea? Adam Smith. 

Quote

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

That was probably in his 'ideologue' phase though.

[VladimirIlyich]

15 minutes ago, deiseach said:

You know who thought progressive taxation was a good idea? Adam Smith. 

That was probably in his 'ideologue' phase though.

Adam Smith,the fuckin' commie.

[Bjornebye]

Print more money! Let’s all be rich yay ! 

[SasaS]

3 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

Yeah, Abkhazia, Artsakh, South Ossetia and Transnistria all have flat rates of tax.

 

 

I think Slovakia has flat rate and it has been one of the most successful new Europe economies so far, with the biggest average wage growth (they are now the level of Czech Republic they were lagging seriously behind after they split).

Progressive tax rates are not the problem as such, it is how high you set the tax rate. If the rate goes to 75% (who introduced this into the conversation?) or 90% you are actually telling the earners in that bracket that you don't want them earning that much, or that you thing earning that much is immoral. It's primarily a prohibitive rate, not a fair rate. 

[Jose Jones]

5 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

I think Slovakia has flat rate and it has been one of the most successful new Europe economies so far, with the biggest average wage growth (they are now the level of Czech Republic they were lagging seriously behind after they split).

Progressive tax rates are not the problem as such, it is how high you set the tax rate. If the rate goes to 75% (who introduced this into the conversation?) or 90% you are actually telling the earners in that bracket that you don't want them earning that much, or that you thing earning that much is immoral. It's primarily a prohibitive rate, not a fair rate. 

Think the 75% was picked up from that Laffer curve Stronts posted somewhere. So it was according to his economic research, presumably effective rather than prohibitive. Up to you whether you think effective = fair of course.

 

I googled the flat tax rate which is where I came up with those cool countries. Don’t think Slovakia is on the list. Hungary is though.

 

The problem with flat tax is that it is not actually flat because wealthier people generally have ways to avoid it, so it’s in practice a regressive tax.

Hence why most countries have some form of progressive tax, even if that doesn’t really work either in a lot as per Warren Buffet and his secretary.

[SasaS]

25 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Think the 75% was picked up from that Laffer curve Stronts posted somewhere. So it was according to his economic research, presumably effective rather than prohibitive. Up to you whether you think effective = fair of course.

 

I googled the flat tax rate which is where I came up with those cool countries. Don’t think Slovakia is on the list. Hungary is though.

 

The problem with flat tax is that it is not actually flat because wealthier people generally have ways to avoid it, so it’s in practice a regressive tax.

Hence why most countries have some form of progressive tax, even if that doesn’t really work either in a lot as per Warren Buffet and his secretary.

I may be mistaken. Although

 

"Estonia was the first Eastern European nation to introduce a flat personal tax regime in 1994. This was followed by the other Baltic states; Lithuania (1994) and Latvia (1995). Russia flattened its personal income tax rates in 2001, followed by Serbia (2003), Slovakia (2004), the Ukraine (2004), Georgia (2005) and Romania (2005)."

https://treasury.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-03/04_Flat_taxes.pdf

[AngryOfTuebrook]

46 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

I think Slovakia has flat rate and it has been one of the most successful new Europe economies so far, with the biggest average wage growth (they are now the level of Czech Republic they were lagging seriously behind after they split).

Progressive tax rates are not the problem as such, it is how high you set the tax rate. If the rate goes to 75% (who introduced this into the conversation?) or 90% you are actually telling the earners in that bracket that you don't want them earning that much, or that you thing earning that much is immoral. It's primarily a prohibitive rate, not a fair rate. 

The most important message to the high earners is "Our whole society needs to collect [whatever amount] in order to give everyone a decent living; you are capable of chipping in a bit more than most people and still being rich."

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, skaro said:

 

In fairness to Boss, he was engaging in conversation with AoT, who said he was ''inclined to agree with the 19th Century writer who argued "By taxing estates heavily at death the State marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life.'" '

 

It's not hatred, but it's not exactly implying an endearing opinion of the wealthy.

 

And besides, Boss said "dislike and spite", not hatred.

 

Hatred or love, I don't think anyone seems against rich people paying their full whack of dues.

 

 

I posted that tongue-in-cheek.  I wouldn't give a blanket "condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life" to every rich person.  I just thought it was funny that Boss's hero Andrew Carnegie wrote that stuff.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 hours ago, Boss said:

 

 

The stuff about Andrew Carnegie building railroads reminded me of "A Worker Reads History" by Bertolt Brecht.

 

https://allpoetry.com/A-Worker-Reads-History

 

Who built the seven gates of Thebes?
The books are filled with names of kings.
Was it the kings who hauled the craggy blocks of stone?
And Babylon, so many times destroyed.
Who built the city up each time? In which of Lima's houses,
That city glittering with gold, lived those who built it?
In the evening when the Chinese wall was finished
Where did the masons go? Imperial Rome
Is full of arcs of triumph. Who reared them up? Over whom
Did the Caesars triumph? Byzantium lives in song.
Were all her dwellings palaces? And even in Atlantis of the legend
The night the seas rushed in,
The drowning men still bellowed for their slaves.

Young Alexander conquered India.
He alone?
Caesar beat the Gauls.
Was there not even a cook in his army?
Phillip of Spain wept as his fleet
was sunk and destroyed. Were there no other tears?
Frederick the Great triumphed in the Seven Years War.
Who triumphed with him?

Each page a victory
At whose expense the victory ball?
Every ten years a great man,
Who paid the piper?

So many particulars.
So many questions.

[Captain Turdseye]

If you really want to learn about enocomics then this is the place to start. 

 

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23 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I posted that tongue-in-cheek.  I wouldn't give a blanket "condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life" to every rich person.  I just thought it was funny that Boss's hero Andrew Carnegie wrote that stuff.

 

Perhaps Carnegie was a self-deprecating, self-flagellating forerunner of organised crime after all.

 

 

 

[Boss]

6 hours ago, deiseach said:

You know who thought progressive taxation was a good idea? Adam Smith. 

That was probably in his 'ideologue' phase though.

 

6 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Adam Smith,the fuckin' commie.

 

You're both attacking strawmen. I didn't say progressive tax was a bad idea. I said the tax rates (which Angry continually called progressive - nothing to do with me) wouldn't work. However, you'd both rather throw in sardonic jibes about a position I do not hold, rather than respond to what I actually said.

 

Actually one of Smith's maxims on taxation is limiting deadweight loss. He said high taxes or taxes on industries with highly elastic demand will result in much less production and less tax revenue over time. You know what's a quintessential industry with highly elastic demand? The stock market. That's why your capital gains rates are a bad idea.

 

He wrote four principles on tax and one of them is certainty. That the tax system shouldn't be convoluted. That it should be clear to the business owner exactly what he or she is paying at all times. He was a big advocate for simplicity and transparency, which would fall more in line with a flat rate philosophy on most things.

 

That quote is often used to represent that he was in favour of progressive tax. That's one quote in a 1200+ page book, taken out of context and it's specifically talking about landlords. The quotes often attributed to him about why he'd favour progressive taxation only show that he was in favour of the rich paying more tax, in absolute terms, not that they should incur higher rates across the board.

[aRdja]

 

[SasaS]

What are they doing to that poor tree?