Thatcher

[Son of L8]

You don't think economic players (ie corporations) are accountable to the public? Who do you think the customers are for these unaccountable behemoths? Fuck, who do you think owns half of these companies, via pension schemes and the like?

 

Companies live and die by the service they provide to the public. If you don't like Tesco, shop at Asda. If enough people do this, Tesco needs to improve or die. That's the way the market works. I'm not sure how that's unaccountable in any sense of the word.

 

No, I don't think they're accountable to the public. That's a nice theory you propose, but how does it go in practice? The only real option most people have from frequenting one unaccountable behemoth is another unaccountable behemoth, whose product, service and corporate behaviour is more or less indistinguishable one from the other. What would the public gain from from boycotting Tesco's and shopping at the Asda en masse, if they're more or less the same thing? What choice is that?

 

The whole accountability-by-competition idea only functions properly in an immature market, where conglomeration hasn't taken hold yet... In a mature liberal economy it's largely a fantasy.

[Strontium]

No, I don't think they're accountable to the public. That's a nice theory you propose, but how does it go in practice? The only real option most people have from frequenting one unaccountable behemoth is another unaccountable behemoth, whose product, service and corporate behaviour is more or less indistinguishable one from the other. What would the public gain from from boycotting Tesco's and shopping at the Asda en masse, if they're more or less the same thing? What choice is that?

If they all fail to deliver, then someone else who does give the public what they want will come in and do just that. Although it's unlikely to come to that if you have industry regulators who ensure that minimum standards are maintained.

 

And if you don't want to shop at any supermarket, then shop at an independent greengrocer. Or grow your own food.

[Guest deowlfella]

First of all may i say"hiyas"(tis my first post).

o.k. so i'm a Scouser of Irish blood,back in '79 i left Liverpool to work in the S.Wales coal industry(Irish/Scouse/Miner...can you see where this is going?).12 months to the day,i along with 6.000+ miners from my valley returned to work......an hour later i greeted the misses with"we're back on strike love",as the only sc*b in our valley had been called a few colourful names and they'd suspended the culprits.So after 365 days of living on £19.60p.w. and some milk-tokens(i had 3 kids below the age of 5),after hearing of the many suicides that happened that year,marriage breakups,etc.etc...after all that,i never thought twice about going back on strike.Maybe folks who live in the City would find that strange,but if like me you lived a mile away from Aberfan,if you daily passed the countless memorials to pit disasters,if you'd seen old miners,blue coal scars like tattoos,eyes watering from trying to cough up the years of dust and only months away from retirement raising their hands and shouting"one out,all out".........

None of us wanted our kids to go down the mines,no one liked going down the shaft,no one expected loss-making pits to remain open forever,we were fighting for communities,for a way of life......Forgive my rambling,as you can tell,i'm not educated enough to be able to express myself as well as some of the posters here,so i'll end with this.....as an ex-miner i'll sh*t on her grave,as a Scouser i'll p*ss on her grave, and on behalf of my Irish kin i'll dig the t*at up and......................DIE SLOWLY BITCH

Y.N.W.A.

[Guest deowlfella]

AND !!! she knicked me milk...Grrrrrrrrrrrr

[Guest deowlfella]

http://www.maggiethatcher.com

Ah Fek it i can't wait"someone gimmee a gun"

[Jose Jones]

I think Messers Noos and Dog have hit the nail on the head in this thread. I voted shudder, but will admit some of the things she did were necessary.

[Guest deowlfella]

Of course some of the things were necessary,but surely we are talking about the way she did these things and the legacy she left behind.Please forgive me for not going too deep into this debate,but feeling this hatred and anger towards a fellow human doesn't make me feel good at all.

DIE SLOWLY BITCH.......(actually that DOES feel good).

Y.N.W.A.

[Guest deowlfella]

http://www.maggiethatcher.com

Ah Fek it i can't wait"someone gimmee a gun"

 

^^^ This was said in the heat of the moment and upon reflection i'd like to say...forget the gun and give me a knife,a blunt knife.Infact forget the knife,slow strangulation sounds more fitting.:wallbutt:

[Guest deowlfella]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW-94pStT0w:thumbsup:

[redrosetints]

Why not? I'm not talking about planned economies or market socialism here, just the curbing of capitalism's worst excesses so that people aren't badly hurt by it. Something which isn't a million miles away from what we have now, in fact, given that we already live in a capitalist society where almost everyone is doing okay.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle ground".

 

I just dont think you can do that. Capitalism is about worshipping money and but just as Communism fails to provide incentive, then Capitalism fails to provide a safety net. Look at Britain today, it is full of Oligopolies and Duopolies, with many acting in a Cartel, which cannot be proven. Look at Britain today, they are all over the place, from global wars such as Pepsi Vs Coca Cola and Shell Vs BP, to more local ones such as Sainsburys Vs Tesco Vs Morrisons. Indeed, you could say the prem is a microcosm of the economic world, with those at the top able to estabvlsh themselves without being threatened. In some key areas there is more competition, in utilities for example or even on the trains, but its not real competition and in fact its left the customer worse off, than when these were Nationalised Monopolies. In capitalism, there is always a bigger shark round the corner to eat you up, until your left with a few VERY VEry big sharks. (Saw a great add on the tube the other day for th FT mergers section, with a giant shark eating another, which was eating another etc, superb image).

 

Id advocate a return of basic utilities/Railways/Buses/transort being state owned. And run along the lines they are now, but with the profits being reinvested into other areas of the country. Those with bigger houses paying more to subsidise those who have less. Look at BP, all that, 8bn ?, profit lasy year could have been there for Schools and hostpitals to make up some of the short fall of the Thatchers years when no investment went in.

[Strontium]

I just dont think you can do that. Capitalism is about worshipping money and but just as Communism fails to provide incentive, then Capitalism fails to provide a safety net.

That's why the State provides a safety net.

 

Look at Britain today, it is full of Oligopolies and Duopolies, with many acting in a Cartel, which cannot be proven.

We have competition watchdogs to prevent cartels and the like.

 

Look at Britain today, they are all over the place, from global wars such as Pepsi Vs Coca Cola and Shell Vs BP, to more local ones such as Sainsburys Vs Tesco Vs Morrisons.

Well, big companies are successful because people like them.

 

This doesn't mean that small companies are shut out entirely though. Small companies are perfectly able to differentiate themselves when they offer products or services which people are willing to pay for. This is why medium-sized companies have been growing faster across Europe and North America than large companies since 2001.

 

I can't help feeling you're only concentrating on a small part of the picture.

 

In capitalism, there is always a bigger shark round the corner to eat you up, until your left with a few VERY VEry big sharks.

That's what we have a Monopolies & Mergers Commission for.

 

Id advocate a return of basic utilities/Railways/Buses/transort being state owned.

I certainly support re-nationalising the buses (it's official LD policy too) but nationalising utilities, railways etc seems to be holding to a dogmatic position that these things should be state owned, even when it would make things worse. Surely the primary focus should be on providing a good public service, whatever way this is accomplished?

 

For one thing, I don't agree with concentrating all that power in the hands of the state. Basic democratic theory holds that centres of power and wealth should be accessible and controlled by people other than those running the apparatus of the state. Nationalising everything in sight leads you to a situation like Venezuela, where productivity has slumped, capital investment has stalled, and quality of the output is worse.

 

For another, it's good to have competition in things like utilities. I believe the British public are much better than the British government at choosing which companies they will purchase from and which ones they won't.

 

Those with bigger houses paying more to subsidise those who have less.

Similar to a land-value tax? It's an interesting proposition that is getting serious discussion in liberal circles.

 

Look at BP, all that, 8bn ?, profit lasy year could have been there for Schools and hostpitals to make up some of the short fall of the Thatchers years when no investment went in.

Where do you suppose that profit goes to?

[aws]

If BP were taxed too heavily on their profits they'd just relocate to another jurisdiction and the UK would collect even less tax.

[Hermes]

BP's turnover last year was $266 billion, so if they made a profit of $8billion that's about 3% profit. They could have earned more than that by putting the $266 billion in the building society, it's peanuts on a turnover of that amount.

[Nunavut Patrick]

aside from her government being hellbent on turning the highlands into the world's nuclear dustbin (hmm, its entirely coincidental that so many kids have luekemia in the far north of Scotland) we are now seeing the true legacy- horrible chav culture, from a generation who knew nothing apart from being on benefits,taking what they think they are owed, without ever having earned it.

teenagers with no respect and running amok, with nothing to aspire to apart from being on big brother ffs.. fuck knows how their kids are going to turn out but I guess it won't be pretty...

 

 

But you`re immortal though..

[Hermes]

aside from her government being hellbent on turning the highlands into the world's nuclear dustbin (hmm, its entirely coincidental that so many kids have luekemia in the far north of Scotland) we are now seeing the true legacy- fuck knows how their kids are going to turn out but I guess it won't be pretty...

 

 

[Kopite]

aside from her government being hellbent on turning the highlands into the world's nuclear dustbin (hmm, its entirely coincidental that so many kids have luekemia in the far north of Scotland) we are now seeing the true legacy- horrible chav culture, from a generation who knew nothing apart from being on benefits,taking what they think they are owed, without ever having earned it.

teenagers with no respect and running amok, with nothing to aspire to apart from being on big brother ffs.. fuck knows how their kids are going to turn out but I guess it won't be pretty...

 

It's already happened mate...

 

[Kopite]

 

I thought the Neville's were born in Lancashire?

[redrosetints]

If BP were taxed too heavily on their profits they'd just relocate to another jurisdiction and the UK would collect even less tax.

 

Ah, Im thinking of BNOC, British national oil comapny (or something like that) which was privatised and became BritOil, which was then brought by BP. Meaning if it was still nationally owned we'd share in those profits. My mistake.

[tokyojoe]

Ah, Im thinking of BNOC, British national oil comapny (or something like that) which was privatised and became BritOil, which was then brought by BP. Meaning if it was still nationally owned we'd share in those profits. My mistake.

 

No, if they were still nationalised the'd report a loss every year.

[Strontium]

No, if they were still nationalised the'd report a loss every year.

 

Quite. There's a good article on privatisation here.

 

I'm still waiting to hear who redrosetints thinks benefits if BP turns a profit.

[Guest deowlfella]

Anyway,i don't like her,so there.

[Guest deowlfella]

Or her son.

[Dropkick]

It hasn't just been immense, mate, it's been the reason. You can tout Thatcher all you like and undermine the current outfit, but this goverment is not the reason for the decline in manufacturing in this country. I wasn't getting "feedback" - I was having conversation with the people who can tell you definitively why their business was closing down. The blokes you know may well be pissed off with red tape (no-one likes red tape do they?) but that is hardly an argument for government bureaucracy killing the sector is it?

 

Now if we are going to start talking about your good Lady Thatcher and her contribution to the manufacturing sector in this country...

 

Nah, they are a reason. The gap in productivity is partially due to British investment abroad, which the government could restrict.

 

The government could also restrict foreign imports to protect our workers despite the productivity gap.

[airbags]

fufcken bastard thathcher, who brought her up, didnt vote in poll, im not english (none of my busjiness) but i would imagine that i live bseside the obder (monaghan) and she was a cunt, she kille dth e hunger stikeres *(boddy sands) and she was ba bastard (we only need yto be lucky onece, she has to be lucxky ever time) but at the ned of the day, i suppose her economics was okay, she says (rich is good, poor people shoulod be ricj) but i say that she fucked the cdolamines (i think she idd, im not english,m im not sure) i lvbe in liverpool now though, going to chibuku now id say, tiga is playingm anyone lese on fir it, id say it would be alitrgfht craic, im not big into the whoppers but itr can be good craic on a saturday night, have been in trhge drink s9icne tuesday, every waking hour, thinking of going to sleep one of these days, but im having fun and at the ned of the day your only young once so leyts go to teh poub, not a big pub man though, ( i like bottles of cider) you know what thge best tihng in the world is (24 asda) 24 hour drinikingk

 

ive always though, se if you brough in 24 drinking in irleand (we would all die) so thsank god for that on good friday we all have to drive up the north to get drink (im an rc, roman caytholci sure) thats immoral but i say, it sgood craicd, wasnt thye first liverpool manger a Orange man, john mckeenam, he was fomf glaslough in monaghgan, righrt beside my house, good mate of johgn houlduing i think, and all the boys try tell me that liverpioll are a protestant cdlub and that man utd are catholci, but i say at ythe ned of the day "up the ra" fuck it, liverpool are very good club, the atmposher on champinosl eague nights is very good

[Strontium]

Nah, they are a reason. The gap in productivity is partially due to British investment abroad, which the government could restrict.

 

The government could also restrict foreign imports to protect our workers despite the productivity gap.

 

I found a YouTube video by a guy who has a few things to say about how Gordon Brown has screwed up the economy actually:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRMmafNRAGk

 

Be interested to get a few viewpoints on this one :lol: