Thatcher

[Stu Monty]

Whoosh.

 

Are you wooshing me or claiming to be missing it yourself?

[Paul]

Are you wooshing me or claiming to be missing it yourself?

 

I'm not wooshing; I'm whooshing. I haven't got a fucking clue what you're on about, Stu. Not even a vague one.

[Stu Monty]

I'm not wooshing; I'm whooshing. I haven't got a fucking clue what you're on about, Stu. Not even a vague one.

 

Replace the word benign with my surname and watch the light-bulb illuminate.

[RedinSweden]

One of the lovely things that seemed to sum up that bunch of bastards was Heseltine giving that speech where he encouraged larger businesses to pay their bills to small businesses late, as some of them would fold before you pay. Don't give me that free market survival of the fittest shite to justify it. Free market? We don't have a free market. It's bent as fuck.

[Paul]

Replace the word benign with my surname and watch the light-bulb illuminate.

 

Erm, right. "Montagu Dictatorship". Cool. Is that a snappy catchphrase round your way, then, Stu?

[Stu Monty]

Erm, right. "Montagu Dictatorship". Cool. Is that a snappy catchphrase round your way, then, Stu?

 

Oh, I see, try and pass the blame on to me for this little episode why don't you. A Montagu Dictatorship would sort out many, many things. You would love it Paul, it would be a utopian paradise; I'd model it on the GF.

[tokyojoe]

The only reason capitalism doesn't work in this country, and many others, is because it isn't capitalism.

 

The economy is just too heavily influenced by government.

[Son of L8]

Sometimes the best way of making a point is with a silly, over-the-top and not entirely apropos metaphor. So here's one:

 

The patient was sick, no doubt. He probably needed his toe amputating, although a heavy dose of meds and a long recovery period might have done the trick in the end. But the hospital brought in a new doctor who wasn't exactly a real bed-side-manner type, who decided to chop the patient's leg clean off at the hip just to be sure, then proceeded to beat the patient senseless with his own leg until he was unconscious, then sexually violated him while he was defenseless.

 

And that, in a nutshell, is what I think about whatever it is we were talking about.

 

Oh, right. Thatcher -- Cunt. I remember now.

[Unrighteous]

Cross between Tremble with rage and Necessary Evil. Oh well... voted rage.

[Son of L8]

The only reason capitalism doesn't work in this country, and many others, is because it isn't capitalism.

 

The economy is just too heavily influenced by government.

 

And now, for a serious post. Real capitalism doesn't and wouldn't work anywhere, period. The underlying principle, that an economy will self-regulate, assumes that no one with a vested interest in the economy can affect the natural regulatory balance (which exists only in theory). This is impossible to realize in practice, because once capital becomes concentrated in the hands of individual players in the economy, that allows individuals and groups to exercise independent control over the mythical market forces. The greater the concentration of capital, the greater the power, which those at the top of the pyramid use to further concentrate capital.

 

A choice exists between government, which is to some degree accountable to the public, exerting its influence over the economic playing field, or economic players with no accountability whatsoever and purely self-serving motives exerting their influence over it unfettered.

 

Get the gummit in there as far as I'm concerned. Of course they balls it up, because most of the time they're incompetent assholes, but things would actually be worse off if you let the big corporations (via the power they exert over the market through concentration of capital) make the decisions that governments are otherwise making.

 

If you could only find a responsible, ethical, intelligent and selfless government to do the job properly, we'd be laughing.

 

You're probably all laughing anyway though, at the completely unrealistic fantasy I just proposed.

[drewy]

For so many reasons, I hope she lingers a painful death.

 

My Father felt the pain for so many years because he couldn't get the work to support our family.

 

He was a qualified tradesman and she destroyed his self respect. Fuck you Thatcher you old dog!

[Nunavut Patrick]

I reckon the best form of government is benign dictatorship.

 

 

Never a truer word written. Democracy is an over-rated ideology.

 

 

Firstly, voter turnout is usually pathetic. In Canada for federal elections it hovers around 65%. Municipal elections ring in around 30. Remind me again why so many Canadian remains are resting in French war cemetaries?

 

Western nations may have close to 100% literacy rates but I truly believe the majority of those could not disseminate a political debate. Moreover, poiticians are just as much to blame. Many pander to the lowest common denominator.

 

During a federal election here in Canada the Liberal Party just kept repeating that Tory leader Stephen Harper was scary and had a hidden agenda. No proof, no reasoning and it worked to an extent.

 

I could be a bening dictator. Unfortrunately, how does one seize power in a benign way.

[Strontium]

I could be a bening dictator. Unfortrunately, how does one seize power in a benign way.

You can't.

 

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses.

[Son of L8]

During a federal election here in Canada the Liberal Party just kept repeating that Tory leader Stephen Harper was scary and had a hidden agenda. No proof, no reasoning and it worked to an extent.

 

That's at least partly because it's true. ;)

 

You're right about the lowest common denominator though. The Canadian political discourse seems to be drifting towards the American model of "Smear, Polarize, and Whatever You Do Don't Talk About Real Issues".

[Paul]

Hermes - I'd still be very interested to read your opinion of Thatcher.

[tokyojoe]

And now, for a serious post. Real capitalism doesn't and wouldn't work anywhere, period. The underlying principle, that an economy will self-regulate, assumes that no one with a vested interest in the economy can affect the natural regulatory balance (which exists only in theory). This is impossible to realize in practice, because once capital becomes concentrated in the hands of individual players in the economy, that allows individuals and groups to exercise independent control over the mythical market forces. The greater the concentration of capital, the greater the power, which those at the top of the pyramid use to further concentrate capital.

 

A choice exists between government, which is to some degree accountable to the public, exerting its influence over the economic playing field, or economic players with no accountability whatsoever and purely self-serving motives exerting their influence over it unfettered.

 

Get the gummit in there as far as I'm concerned. Of course they balls it up, because most of the time they're incompetent assholes, but things would actually be worse off if you let the big corporations (via the power they exert over the market through concentration of capital) make the decisions that governments are otherwise making.

 

If you could only find a responsible, ethical, intelligent and selfless government to do the job properly, we'd be laughing.

 

You're probably all laughing anyway though, at the completely unrealistic fantasy I just proposed.

 

 

I'm talking about the sheer size of government intervention in the economy. About 40% of GNP is government, and fuck knows how much of the private sector is mainly, or even solely dependent on government contracts.

 

The endless rules, regulations, bureaucracy and taxes have all but killed off manufacturing in this country, whch created massive job losses. Private sector jobs have been falling for years, but have been compensated by multitudes of really useful roles in the public domain, such as cycle lane organisers and diversity managers.

 

EDIT. I nearly forgot those nice spotty little twats with clipboards who'll soon be coming to poke their noses into your bedrooms and the bog to see how much more council tax you'll have to pay.

[WaltonRed]

Never a truer word written. Democracy is an over-rated ideology.

 

 

Firstly, voter turnout is usually pathetic. In Canada for federal elections it hovers around 65%. Municipal elections ring in around 30. Remind me again why so many Canadian remains are resting in French war cemetaries?

 

Western nations may have close to 100% literacy rates but I truly believe the majority of those could not disseminate a political debate. Moreover, poiticians are just as much to blame. Many pander to the lowest common denominator.

 

During a federal election here in Canada the Liberal Party just kept repeating that Tory leader Stephen Harper was scary and had a hidden agenda. No proof, no reasoning and it worked to an extent.

 

I could be a bening dictator. Unfortrunately, how does one seize power in a benign way.

 

I know what you mean about turnout but lool at France, they had 80% recently because the country was polarized between one end of the spectrum and the other. Until that happens in the other major nations and people continue to fight it out in the middle ground then turnout will continue to be low.

[Elmyn Noos]

I'm talking about the sheer size of government intervention in the economy. About 40% of GNP is government, and fuck knows how much of the private sector is mainly, or even solely dependent on government contracts.

 

The endless rules, regulations, bureaucracy and taxes have all but killed off manufacturing in this country, whch created massive job losses. Private sector jobs have been falling for years, but have been compensated by multitudes of really useful roles in the public domain, such as cycle lane organisers and diversity managers.

 

EDIT. I nearly forgot those nice spotty little twats with clipboards who'll soon be coming to poke their noses into your bedrooms and the bog to see how much more council tax you'll have to pay.

 

Not true mate. Manufacturing in this country has been killed off by a rise in the general standard of living here (and therefore cost) compared to elsewhere in the world. Victims of our own success if you like. I have been speaking with directors of manufacturing companies over the last ten years as part of my job, and the biggest problem they have faced is competition from abroad, particularly the far east, where something can be made not only cheaper, but for a tiny fraction of the cost over here. Not one of them has complained that it has been because of goverment red tape or intervention.

 

Also, I think cycle lanes are actually a very good idea!

[tokyojoe]

Not true mate. Manufacturing in this country has been killed off by a rise in the general standard of living here (and therefore cost) compared to elsewhere in the world. Victims of our own success if you like. I have been speaking with directors of manufacturing companies over the last ten years as part of my job, and the biggest problem they have faced is competition from abroad, particularly the far east, where something can be made not only cheaper, but for a tiny fraction of the cost over here. Not one of them has complained that it has been because of goverment red tape or intervention.

 

Also, I think cycle lanes are actually a very good idea!

 

Yeah, agreed the downward pressure on prices from places like China has been immense, but we haven't helped ourselves. Fairy nuff, you've had feedback but blokes I know in manufacturing are well pissed of with red tape.

[Elmyn Noos]

Yeah, agreed the downward pressure on prices from places like China has been immense, but we haven't helped ourselves. Fairy nuff, you've had feedback but blokes I know in manufacturing are well pissed of with red tape.

 

It hasn't just been immense, mate, it's been the reason. You can tout Thatcher all you like and undermine the current outfit, but this goverment is not the reason for the decline in manufacturing in this country. I wasn't getting "feedback" - I was having conversation with the people who can tell you definitively why their business was closing down. The blokes you know may well be pissed off with red tape (no-one likes red tape do they?) but that is hardly an argument for government bureaucracy killing the sector is it?

 

Now if we are going to start talking about your good Lady Thatcher and her contribution to the manufacturing sector in this country...

[redrosetints]

That's a bit of a black-and-white view of capitalism you have there.

 

I agree that Thatcher's laissez-faire capitalism and unrestrained free market was immensely damaging to those of us at the thin end of the wedge, but that's not the whole story.

 

If you properly manage capitalism, you can bring people out of poverty and into prosperity. If you let it roam unchecked, as Thatcher did, it'll destroy lives (and make a lot of people very rich). The situation, however, ain't as simple as CAPITALISM BAD FREE MARKET BAD.

 

But SD, me old mucker, if you "manage" capitalism, then it isn't capitalism is it ? Similarly, if you look at somewhere, (hehehe) like Cuba, then they have a lot of good things which are positives for communism, but you wouldnt advocate that would you ?

 

As Communism is a failed venture, it will prove so with Capitalism. As with most things in life extremes never work, and the middle ground is the way forward. Capitalism will eventually see an uprising against it, much like communism did.

[redrosetints]

And now, for a serious post. Real capitalism doesn't and wouldn't work anywhere, period. The underlying principle, that an economy will self-regulate, assumes that no one with a vested interest in the economy can affect the natural regulatory balance (which exists only in theory). This is impossible to realize in practice, because once capital becomes concentrated in the hands of individual players in the economy, that allows individuals and groups to exercise independent control over the mythical market forces. The greater the concentration of capital, the greater the power, which those at the top of the pyramid use to further concentrate capital.

 

A choice exists between government, which is to some degree accountable to the public, exerting its influence over the economic playing field, or economic players with no accountability whatsoever and purely self-serving motives exerting their influence over it unfettered.

 

Get the gummit in there as far as I'm concerned. Of course they balls it up, because most of the time they're incompetent assholes, but things would actually be worse off if you let the big corporations (via the power they exert over the market through concentration of capital) make the decisions that governments are otherwise making.

 

If you could only find a responsible, ethical, intelligent and selfless government to do the job properly, we'd be laughing.

 

You're probably all laughing anyway though, at the completely unrealistic fantasy I just proposed.

 

Nice :lol:

[kelster]

Thatcher and Blair are the Shankly and Paisley of politics, and may Shankely the socialist strike me down for using him as a Thatcher comparison.

 

One took over when the country was on it knees economically and cut away all the dead wood and did what was needed to jump start everything. The other took the country onto a different level after all the foundations had been established.

 

It's unlikely that Thatcher could have done Blairs job and vice versa. Similarly most Liverpool supporters reckon Shankley was what was needed when we were dead and buried in Division 2, and Paisley was the one to take it further. Horses for courses.

[Strontium]

But SD, me old mucker, if you "manage" capitalism, then it isn't capitalism is it ?

 

Why not? I'm not talking about planned economies or market socialism here, just the curbing of capitalism's worst excesses so that people aren't badly hurt by it. Something which isn't a million miles away from what we have now, in fact, given that we already live in a capitalist society where almost everyone is doing okay.

 

As Communism is a failed venture, it will prove so with Capitalism. As with most things in life extremes never work, and the middle ground is the way forward. Capitalism will eventually see an uprising against it, much like communism did.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle ground".

[Strontium]

A choice exists between government, which is to some degree accountable to the public, exerting its influence over the economic playing field, or economic players with no accountability whatsoever and purely self-serving motives exerting their influence over it unfettered.

You don't think economic players (ie corporations) are accountable to the public? Who do you think the customers are for these unaccountable behemoths? Fuck, who do you think owns half of these companies, via pension schemes and the like?

 

Companies live and die by the service they provide to the public. If you don't like Tesco, shop at Asda. If enough people do this, Tesco needs to improve or die. That's the way the market works. I'm not sure how that's unaccountable in any sense of the word.