A FF refugee thread - Is religion bollocks or not?

[Guest Mr_Red]

It's worse than that - 2 out of 3 of the major religions share the same God, but believe that the followers of the other 2 worship him in a way that will p1ss him off sufficiently to bar the gates of paradise to them.

 

Or maybe the Christian Trinity is partly right, but rather than Son, Father & Holy Ghost, it's a case of multiple personality disorder. Just better hope the right one is in residence when you hit those Pearly Gates

I'd rather hit Gareth Gates.

[Guest bigf00t]

If i'm wrong... it doesnt make a difference cuz im just dead. End Of.

 

 

But if you lot are wrong... you spend an eternity in hell... lovely.

[Guest Mr_Red]

If i'm wrong... it doesnt make a difference cuz im just dead. End Of.

 

 

But if you lot are wrong... you spend an eternity in hell... lovely.

Do you stand outside the McDonalds on Church Street preaching? Those guys really annoy me. I've already said it, I don't believe in any God, but I respect the fact that you do.

[Guest molbyscorchio]

Question - Is there any country in the world with a western level of literacy and education and freedom of speech and thought where Islam is growing?

 

Iraq was meant to be pretty secular and well educated and prosperous before the sanctions kicked in, as was Iran under the Shah, although neither could claim to be bastions of free speech.

 

Actually the answer to my initial question is probably the UK!

 

You are correct. And France (largely through a changing demographic) and other European and Scandinavian countries, and Australia - and I suspect, the US too :)

[Guest molbyscorchio]

For the record humans have evolved to the state they are in now - and need the psychological crutch that is known as "faith" to try and make sense of the Bigger Questions - Why are we here, and what the fuck is going to happen when we aren't??

Actually, I think our intellectual evolution brings about a decreased dependence on the 'crutch', except of course in the Welsh.

 

Perhaps in 10,000 years time humanity will have evolved out of this infuriating arrogance, and we will all be essentially humanists.

 

Ignorance rather than arrogance, surely?

 

And you're bang on. You do sound like an old hippy. ;)

[Guest molbyscorchio]

 

 

Gould isn't an ultra-orthodox Darwinian, but then neither was Darwin.

 

 

That is a point fantastically well made, and seemingly lost on the creationists.

[ZC]

If i'm wrong... it doesnt make a difference cuz im just dead. End Of.

 

You’ll be dead but you’ll have lived (your only) life believing in lies, making pointless sacrifices and mindlessly subscribing to a bigoted, ludicrous doctrine. What a waste, end of.

 

I’ll have enjoyed my life not restricting myself to a set of imposed warped morals and prejudices contained in a book of fairytales. I’ll use my brain to decide upon what morals to live by thanks. If a God did exist it would be a very cruel trick for him to bless us with the powers of logic and reasoning and then punish us for using them.

 

 

 

But if you lot are wrong... you spend an eternity in hell... lovely.

 

What a great reason to believe in a religion – an insurance policy. Am glad you’re honest about it though. Most religious people deny it’s the fear of the consequences of not believing that stops them from questioning their faith or giving it up.

[madstock]

Ignorance rather than arrogance, surely?

 

Nah, I meant the arrogance to think that we are all part of some "master plan", on earth to do some great work for A Revered One.

 

And you're bang on. You do sound like an old hippy. ;)

 

I hate to think what I'll be like when I pass 30 then...

 

My point was that far too many people think far too much about the problems that may occur after kicking the bucket*, and tend to take their eye off the ball when it comes to living.

 

If a fraction of the energy spent on religious fanaticism could be channelled into more "positive" causes, perhaps the afterlife would not hold as much appeal as the pre-afterlife.

 

*aside from the obvious problems with mobility, communication and general life, due to err death.

[Strontium]

If i'm wrong... it doesnt make a difference cuz im just dead. End Of.

 

But if you lot are wrong... you spend an eternity in hell... lovely.

That's called Pascal's Wager and, yes, it is as hopelessly simplistic and flawed a concept as it appears to be.

 

If that's your line of thinking, then the Atheist's Wager is a similarly flawed application of decision theory, but it has infinitely more merit than Pascal's Wager.

[Guest Devils Advocate]

The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride." And we … kill those people. "Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

 

A young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration … that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves.

[Guest molbyscorchio]

The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride." And we … kill those people. "Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

 

A young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration … that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves.

 

can I have a toke on that DA?

[Hand Shandy]

can I have a toke on that DA?

 

Bill Hicks monologue...

[Guest molbyscorchio]

Bill Hicks monologue...

 

Every day is a schoolday. I'd still like a toke though.

[Hand Shandy]

Every day is a schoolday. I'd still like a toke though.

 

Indeed, but those things will kill ya... :whistle:

[Mr Moustache]

What did people make of The Passion of The Christ? It was a wasted opportunity in my eyes and watching had the same freeling as being smashed over the head by hardbacked cover of the Bible for 2 hours. Liked the androgynous devil and the fact that JC invented the dinner table like.

 

I'd love to see a similar movie about Mohammed but, correct me if I'm wrong Rashid/bigfOOt, would this be allowed as you'd have to show the prophets face and isn't any interpretation of him deemed offensive?

[Guest molbyscorchio]

What did people make of The Passion of The Christ? It was a wasted opportunity in my eyes and watching had the same freeling as being smashed over the head by hardbacked cover of the Bible for 2 hours. Liked the androgynous devil and the fact that JC invented the dinner table like.

 

I'd love to see a similar movie about Mohammed but, correct me if I'm wrong Rashid/bigfOOt, would this be allowed as you'd have to show the prophets face and isn't any interpretation of him deemed offensive?

 

It could be like Randall and Hopkirk. Let me explain. Non-muslims could see Mohammed, but Muslims would have to wear glasses which remove Mohammed from the picture.

 

Only you Jeff.

[Cardie]

I love the fact that they're so fucking furious over cartoons like this

 

 

Yet are still happy to do there own cartoons such as

 

 

 

it's the tolerance I admire most I think.

[Big Ig]

Do you stand outside the McDonalds on Church Street preaching? Those guys really annoy me. I've already said it, I don't believe in any God, but I respect the fact that you do.

Why?

[Stu Monty]

Religion is just a form of control. If people were to believe that their existance were of no more importance than that of an acorn and that just as with any other life form they will rot, feed plants and nothing else they may feel they would want to do as they please. They may feel that they don't want to toil for the rest of their sorry lives to make someone else money because being a good subserviant boy will get you into heaven. They may feel like killing a man or stealing. There may even be chaos.

 

Much better that everyone knows that if you give all your money to god and do what the men in charge say then you'll get a first class ticket to heaven.

 

I don't know how we got to where we are today but I do know that I'll not be following 'God' in the same way other people would find it rediculous to follow the almighty Keith, Gibbon creator of all the universe.

[biggit]

It could be like Randall and Hopkirk. Let me explain. Non-muslims could see Mohammed, but Muslims would have to wear glasses which remove Mohammed from the picture.

 

or Mohammed could wear a bag over his head throughout the film

[biggit]

Well the big bang is in the Quran... a book written 1400 years ago speaks of how the Universe is expanding...

 

and my belief that Evolution is nonsense is from like a million different books, erticles, etc, i've read.

 

Mistranslation and the Quran

 

 

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/huxley/islam_big_bang.htm

 

Islamic apologists attempt to claim that the “Big Bang” is actually described by the Qur’an in one of many miraculous displays of scientific precocity in text. Here, in a representative example of the claim, the Turkish apologist Adnan Oktar (writing under the pseudonym Harun Yayha) tells us:

 

 

 

Adnan Oktar wrote:

The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this was not discovered by science until the 20th century, Allah has informed us of this reality in the Qur’an revealed 1,400 years ago:

 

It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)

 

Another important aspect revealed in the Qur'an fourteen centuries before the modern discovery of the Big Bang and findings related to it is that when it was created, the universe occupied a very tiny volume:

 

Do those who are disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not have faith? (Surat al-Anbiya': 30)

 

There is a very important choice of words in the original Arabic whose translation is given above. The word ratk translated as ‘sewn to’ means ‘mixed in each, blended’ in Arabic dictionaries. It is used to refer to two different substances that make up a whole. The phrase "we unstitched" is the verb fatk in Arabic and implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of ratk. The sprouting of a seed from the soil is one of the actions to which this verb is applied.

 

 

Looking a Little Deeper:

 

The first important point to consider is the actual statements of the Qur’an, and whether they have been honestly presented. Oktar quotes the Qur’an as saying in 51:47 “It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.”

 

Is that a fair translation of the aya in question?

 

Well, not according to the three most highly regarded English translations generally available. Their versions are:

 

In Al-Qur'an 051.047, Muhammad (or somebody) wrote:

 

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

 

 

Not one of them contains the idea of an ongoing expansion of the universe. In fact, none of them refers to the “universe” at all, but to the heavens or firmament, in contrast to the aya immediately following which discusses the earth:

 

Al-Qur'an 051.048, Muhammad (or somebody) wrote:

 

YUSUFALI: And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!

PICKTHAL: And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!

SHAKIR: And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.

 

 

The dualism of the heaven and the earth is a recurring theme in the Qur’an, and to ancient Arabs they together would have been considered the entire universe. And generally, when one is referred to, the other marches right along with it in the repetitive pattern of most Arabic poetry.

 

The problem here is that since the identical verb forms and grammar are used, to include tense, how can Oktar claim the first aya refers to an ongoing, continuing expansion of the heavens, without also concluding that the second must also refer to an ongoing, continuing spreading of the earth?

 

Qur’anic cosmology is firmly geocentric, with the earth at the center of the universe surrounded by seven solid spheres (the “seven heavens”) within which orbited the stars, planets, sun and moon.

 

But here Oktar has deliberately and deceptively altered the meaning of 51:47 in three ways.

 

He has mistranslated “heaven” as “universe” in the attempt to make the Qur’an sound conceptually more sophisticated than it really is, and to provide a stronger basis for his second and more significant distortion.

 

He then not only translates the Arabic noun for “a vastness” into a verb meaning “expanding,” but he then adds the entirely superfluous adverb “steadily” in an attempt to insert into the Qur’an additional ideas that are not actually there. With these three translational liberties, Oktar has completely changed the meaning of this aya from a simple description of Allah’s creation of the heavens into a scientific statement of Hubble’s expanding universe that is not actually contained in the Qur’an.

 

Oktar’s misuse and abuse of al-Qur’an 21:30 is no more legitimate than his mutilation of 51:47 although at least his translation is more loyal to the original. In this case his primary tool for distortion comes from the decision to take this single aya completely out of context, and so disguise its actual (and obvious) meaning.

[biggit]

I'd rather hit Gareth Gates.

 

testify my brother!

[Big Ig]

Religion is just a form of control. If people were to believe that their existance were of no more importance than that of an acorn and that just as with any other life form they will rot, feed plants and nothing else they may feel they would want to do as they please. They may feel that they don't want to toil for the rest of their sorry lives to make someone else money because being a good subserviant boy will get you into heaven. They may feel like killing a man or stealing. There may even be chaos.

 

Much better that everyone knows that if you give all your money to god and do what the men in charge say then you'll get a first class ticket to heaven.

 

I don't know how we got to where we are today but I do know that I'll not be following 'God' in the same way other people would find it rediculous to follow the almighty Keith, Gibbon creator of all the universe.

All hail Keith!

 

Courtesy of Alan Sex on Bollockyboo... The New York Dolls 'Dance like a Monkey'... Note the appearance of Jah Pastafari at the end: :biggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjVtJzTSuPw

[tokyojoe]

Look at the benefits of religion. Already a four page thread.

 

 

Another bloody arguement.

[AVEEZ]

Religion...IMHO a world gone mad - When we start talking about inclusive policies for grave stones I think it has all gone far enough!

 

Row erupts over 'PC' cemetery where headstones face Mecca

 

A row has erupted over a new cemetery where all the graves will be aligned to Mecca even though Muslims will take up only a small minority of the burial plots.

 

Headstones in the £2.5million High Wood Cemetery in Nottingham, will face north-east in accordance with the Muslim belief that the dead look over their shoulder towards Mecca, which lies south-east of Britain.

 

The radical move - thought to be a first in this country - has upset the Church and led to complaints that the majority Christian population is being discriminated against.

 

Christian gravestones traditionally look east towards Jerusalem, supposedly in anticipation of the second coming of Christ.

 

Today, the Bishop of Southwell & Nottingham, the Right Reverend George Cassidy said: 'This is a sensitive issue to people of all faiths. I wonder about how full a consultation was done before decisions were made.

 

'I hope the situation will be reviewed with wide consultation and a policy that takes account of the needs of all.'

 

Nottingham City Council denies there is a religious or politically correct agenda behind the design of the cemetery and claims the arrangement was intended to keep the planned 13,500 plots looking 'tidy'.

 

The decision on the graves' alignment was made after liaising with the city's multi-faith Cemeteries Consultative Committee, it says.

 

The cemetery has separate areas for different faiths, with approximately 15 per cent of the land currently set aside for Muslim burials.

 

But the diocese's spokeswoman Rachel Farmer said clergy on the committe have no recollection of being consulted about the policy.

 

She added: 'People should have the opportunity to follow Christian traditions if they choose to, and the Christian faith should not be discriminated against in this way.

 

'The 2001 census showed over 70 per cent of the population considered themselves Christian, so this new policy will limit the choice of the majority.

 

'We support an inclusive policy for graveyards, which takes into account the traditions of all faiths, but this should not be done to the exclusion of another.' -

 

Specific request

 

The council says bodies will be buried facing north-east, unless relatives of the deceased specifically request that other arrangements be made.

 

But Reverend David Gray, of St John's Church, Bulwell, said it is unfair for the Christian majority to have to ask to be buried in accordance with their faith.

 

He added: 'It is an evolving cemetery and should be made for all faiths - and certainly people of Christian faiths.

 

'I would hope that would be the case so that those of the Christian faith, just like anybody, would not feel excluded from their faith.'

 

Raza ul-Haq, imam of the nearby Madni Masjid Mosque, said Muslims would back Christians' complaints over the headstones.

 

He said: 'If it is part of their religion that they should be facing towards somewhere else then we are in support of them. Burial traditions are important. If that is their requirement then we will be supporting the Christians.'

 

Since the cemetery opened in July, six burials have taken place, all in graves facing north-east. Three of the deceased were Muslim and one is thought to have been Christian.

 

The cemetery, which has been allocated 40 acres to cater for the shortage of space in graveyards in the area, is Nottingham's first new cemetery for 85 years.

 

A spokesman for the Institute of Cemeteries and Crematorium Management said it was the first time he had heard of any public cemetery in Britain choosing to have all its gravestones facing north-east, in line with Muslim tradition.

 

Steve Dowling, the council's services director for environment and public protection, said: 'We have offered to meet representatives of the Diocese of Southwell, and we will work with them to accommodate their wishes.

 

'High Wood is a large site with room for everyone's needs. In the first phase of development it has been agreed the graves will face north-east.

 

'For people of the Muslim faith this fits in with a religious requirement, but it will also ensure a tidy appearance for the site as a whole.

 

'Consultation with a wide variety of groups will continue, and there will be an opportunity to consider and suggestions and special wishes.'