£18.6 million!!!

[Guest Far and Tether]

This resonates with me and has been a consistent bugbear amongst some of the older Liverpool fans about our transfer policy since we were dominant. Look at our best teams and they were almost entirely players that we bought for only modest sums, with one or two superstar transfers on top.

 

The thing for you is, however, that for a while, you had enough of those players for transfers such as Cole and Yorke - both of which were very large sums indeed - to be regarded as value for money. They both did well but I'd not say brilliantly. Coming back to the Carrick poitn I made on another thread they decorated the team - which had a fearsome will about it as a result of the players already there who weren't big money signings in the main. Had those two been in an average team they'd not have prospered.

 

So spending top dollar is less of a risk when the rest of the team is sound. Spending it when it's not can make the deal look far less good value. IN other words, context - here the team into which a player is to be integrated - is king when perceiving the value of a big-money transfer.

 

Shite, here I am agreeing with you again! That one phrase -- "fearsome will "-- just got my attention. It was there in the Hughes, Ince, Bruce era and it was there with the kids who largely replaced them, or dovetailed with them if you like. The transitional keys were Keane and Cantona. As I said on the other thread (we should probably keep it here, because I think that thread has pissed off enough people already!), there is nobody who has brought that almost scary determination to succeed, other than G. Nev. It's like those maniacs of the past were fans as well as players. My fear is not only for United, but for football in general these days. You lot have Gerrard (maybe, but he did seem willing to go once) and Carragher that are a throwback to that attitude (oh, and Fowler of course, how could I forget? ;) ), but I think there are less and less of them around. People thought Beckham was a prima donna, and in the media sense he was, but he was gritty and determined as anyone from that early 90s bunch. Fuck, he learned[ it from them. What are any of the younger lads coming through learning from John O'Shea, or even Wes, a Manc through and through?

[redrosetints]

Shite, here I am agreeing with you again! That one phrase -- "fearsome will "-- just got my attention. It was there in the Hughes, Ince, Bruce era and it was there with the kids who largely replaced them, or dovetailed with them if you like. The transitional keys were Keane and Cantona. As I said on the other thread (we should probably keep it here, because I think that thread has pissed off enough people already!), there is nobody who has brought that almost scary determination to succeed, other than G. Nev. It's like those maniacs of the past were fans as well as players. My fear is not only for United, but for football in general these days. You lot have Gerrard (maybe, but he did seem willing to go once) and Carragher that are a throwback to that attitude (oh, and Fowler of course, how could I forget? ;) ), but I think there are less and less of them around. People thought Beckham was a prima donna, and in the media sense he was, but he was gritty and determined as anyone from that early 90s bunch. Fuck, he learned[ it from them. What are any of the younger lads coming through learning from John O'Shea, or even Wes, a Manc through and through?

 

But all teams have their heart. Its not necessarily about them being fans or local, although this is a quality that raises a players game. Its about the drive and leadership qualities they have. Beckham, to site your example of fans who are players, was motivated, gritty, determined and obviously for a while a very integral part of your title wining sides but he was never the heart of your side. Keane was. Similarly, we have Carra who is a superb player who adds similar qualities, but he does not lead our side like Gerrard does. Last season we saw what a fully committed Gerrard could do and it was frightening, he was superb and I was all for selling him after his pre olympiakos outburst.

 

Carrick is a good player, but as mentioned earlier, he's nice decoration. He wont be the heartbeat of your side, the fulcrum to drive you to success. Obviously replacing these type of players is very hard but really, Klebersen a replacement for Keane, Ha! Id have thought Davids drive, playing with VDS might have been a short term solution for you last summer. For the future Id say Reo Coker could be the man you need, but until you get that type of player back i dont think you'll win the league.

 

FWIW, I think you should have moved Keane on in about 02, a key part of our succeses was moving players on at the right time and part of our demise was not being able to continue that process into the 90s. I mean Barnes being played as a holding mid was a complete joke, which carried on much similar nonsense that had gone on for the previous 5 years. The biggest crime of Souness, for me, aside from some of his signings was not using the example of the end of his own career, by moving on previous greats before they had started to decline. The likes of Rush, Barnes and Grob would have gone much sooner under Paisley.

[Guest Far and Tether]

But all teams have their heart. Its not necessarily about them being fans or local, although this is a quality that raises a players game. Its about the drive and leadership qualities they have. Beckham, to site your example of fans who are players, was motivated, gritty, determined and obviously for a while a very integral part of your title wining sides but he was never the heart of your side. Keane was. Similarly, we have Carra who is a superb player who adds similar qualities, but he does not lead our side like Gerrard does. Last season we saw what a fully committed Gerrard could do and it was frightening, he was superb and I was all for selling him after his pre olympiakos outburst.

 

Carrick is a good player, but as mentioned earlier, he's nice decoration. He wont be the heartbeat of your side, the fulcrum to drive you to success. Obviously replacing these type of players is very hard but really, Klebersen a replacement for Keane, Ha! Id have thought Davids drive, playing with VDS might have been a short term solution for you last summer. For the future Id say Reo Coker could be the man you need, but until you get that type of player back i dont think you'll win the league.

 

FWIW, I think you should have moved Keane on in about 02, a key part of our succeses was moving players on at the right time and part of our demise was not being able to continue that process into the 90s. I mean Barnes being played as a holding mid was a complete joke, which carried on much similar nonsense that had gone on for the previous 5 years. The biggest crime of Souness, for me, aside from some of his signings was not using the example of the end of his own career, by moving on previous greats before they had started to decline. The likes of Rush, Barnes and Grob would have gone much sooner under Paisley.

 

I like what I've seen of Reo Coker. It's not that I don't like Carrick, he's decent and should fit in well, but he's not the final piece of the midfield puzzle. I agree that he's not a heart and soul type, but money aside, I'm not unhappy we've got him. Local lads can be haert and soul yet not leaders, that's true. I think locals and/or true fans of the Club are more likely to be effective leaders, though.

 

Your other point about moving people on at the right time interests me. I think you're probably right about Souness (another stubborn Scot). Ferguson gets a lot of stick (from fellow Reds too) about his moving on of, say, Beckham, Stam, Yorke, Keane (more the way he did it than the timing in Keano's case) and now Ruud. But in his mind, and perhaps subsequent form has born it out at least with a few of these (Becks, Yorke, time will tell with Ruud), he's done exactly that -- moved them on when they were getting stale or ineffective or disruptive. I don't believe for one moment he gets it right every time (Stam), but you gotta admit he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this regard. And the irony of United not moving on players quickly enough isn't lost on me who (vaguely) remembers what happened to us in the early 70s.

[redrosetints]

I like what I've seen of Reo Coker. It's not that I don't like Carrick, he's decent and should fit in well, but he's not the final piece of the midfield puzzle. I agree that he's not a heart and soul type, but money aside, I'm not unhappy we've got him. Local lads can be haert and soul yet not leaders, that's true. I think locals and/or true fans of the Club are more likely to be effective leaders, though.

 

Your other point about moving people on at the right time interests me. I think you're probably right about Souness (another stubborn Scot). Ferguson gets a lot of stick (from fellow Reds too) about his moving on of, say, Beckham, Stam, Yorke, Keane (more the way he did it than the timing in Keano's case) and now Ruud. But in his mind, and perhaps subsequent form has born it out at least with a few of these (Becks, Yorke, time will tell with Ruud), he's done exactly that -- moved them on when they were getting stale or ineffective or disruptive. I don't believe for one moment he gets it right every time (Stam), but you gotta admit he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this regard. And the irony of United not moving on players quickly enough isn't lost on me who (vaguely) remembers what happened to us in the early 70s.

 

But the second point is also aimed at Keane. Not only have you not replaced Keane with Carrick as they are two different types of players, but Ferguson failed to spot the correct time to do so, which was 2 or 3 seasons ago. And thats the reason for your decline (relative of course).

 

So Carrick isnt the answer to Keanes departure for the here and now, whilst the failure to move Keane on before he started to decline has left you sliding away for the past 3 seasons. You have some great talent, many nice 'decorations' like Carrick, but until Keane is replaced, you wont win the league, bit like our teams under Evans. Some great decorations in Fowler, Macca, Redknapp and Collymore but ultimatley we never had the one inspirational driving force that could do it. We tried the Guvnor, but as you found out at United, the real Guvnor wasnt Ince at all, but Keane, hence why Ince arrival with ultimatley fruitless.

[Guest Far and Tether]

But the second point is also aimed at Keane. Not only have you not replaced Keane with Carrick as they are two different types of players, but Ferguson failed to spot the correct time to do so, which was 2 or 3 seasons ago. And thats the reason for your decline (relative of course).

 

So Carrick isnt the answer to Keanes departure for the here and now, whilst the failure to move Keane on before he started to decline has left you sliding away for the past 3 seasons. You have some great talent, many nice 'decorations' like Carrick, but until Keane is replaced, you wont win the league, bit like our teams under Evans. Some great decorations in Fowler, Macca, Redknapp and Collymore but ultimatley we never had the one inspirational driving force that could do it. We tried the Guvnor, but as you found out at United, the real Guvnor wasnt Ince at all, but Keane, hence why Ince arrival with ultimatley fruitless.

 

But when you say replace Keane, do you mean like for like? Because I fear that a Keane (or a Souness or a Robson) only comes around very rarely. It would make more sense that we don't assume we'll find a clone of Keane, but do what Fergie has been doing (with admittedly mixed results), and that is finding a system that can work with the players we've got (or plan to get, or plan to bring through the system) and that doesn't rely on the midfield dynamism of a relative super-human. You're right that Ferguson waited too long... then compounded the problem by bringing in Djx2 and Kleberson and Miller, none of whom worked out. He seems to rate Fletcher highly, which is a bit of a mystery to most Reds, but he's still younger than Keane was when he came to us, and you never know. There are signs he's finally developing. He did miss over a year with a broken leg, after all, just when he was ready to make the jump from the reserves. Please note that, in spite of this tangent, I'm not for one minute saying Fletcher will be the answer to the Keane-shaped hole in our midfield!

[Owen]

But when you say replace Keane, do you mean like for like? Because I fear that a Keane (or a Souness or a Robson) only comes around very rarely.

 

... a Gerrard, a Momo...

[Guest bigf00t]

Im hearing Senna is a done deal to united?

[Sangria]

Im hearing Senna is a done deal to united?

 

If true the midfield will be a lot better than last year - mind you that is no great shakes. Still not a patch on Alonso, Gerrard and Momo but then not many midfields are.

[Guest Far and Tether]

... a Gerrard, a Momo...

 

A Gerrard, yes, but I haven't seen enough of Sissoko to really judge. Even with Gerrard, we're too close right now. It almost needs a retrospective look before we can say definitively. I know that's probably heresy on here, but it's my opinion all the same. (What we're edging into here is one of them "who is world class?" discussions we see on footy boards all the time, only it's disguised a bit.)

[Guest Far and Tether]

If true the midfield will be a lot better than last year - mind you that is no great shakes. Still not a patch on Alonso, Gerrard and Momo but then not many midfields are.

 

Don't forget, we got Scholes back, but yeah...

[Owen]

A Gerrard, yes, but I haven't seen enough of Sissoko to really judge. Even with Gerrard, we're too close right now. It almost needs a retrospective look before we can say definitively. I know that's probably heresy on here, but it's my opinion all the same. (What we're edging into here is one of them "who is world class?" discussions we see on footy boards all the time, only it's disguised a bit.)

 

Yeah, it was slightly tongue in cheek.

 

However, Gerrard does have all the qualities Keane showed for Utd, and is becomming more vocal. He's developed into a more attacking player since Rafa's arrival though. I guess we'll have more of a chance to judge if he plays centrally this season.

 

Momo is boss. So much like a young Vieira it's scary... perhaps not as good a passer, but more aggressive yet cool-headed.

[Guest TK-421]

A Gerrard, yes, but I haven't seen enough of Sissoko to really judge. Even with Gerrard, we're too close right now. It almost needs a retrospective look before we can say definitively. I know that's probably heresy on here, but it's my opinion all the same. (What we're edging into here is one of them "who is world class?" discussions we see on footy boards all the time, only it's disguised a bit.)

 

No Gerrard = no European or FA Cup. He's that good.

 

I know it's a team game but I don't think you can say that for any of our other players.

 

As you say lets not get into the dreaded 'who is World Class' debate.

[Guest Far and Tether]

Yeah, it was slightly tongue in cheek.

 

However, Gerrard does have all the qualities Keane showed for Utd, and is becomming more vocal. He's developed into a more attacking player since Rafa's arrival though. I guess we'll have more of a chance to judge if he plays centrally this season.

 

Momo is boss. So much like a young Vieira it's scary... perhaps not as good a passer, but more aggressive yet cool-headed.

 

I'm one of a very rare breed of Manc who actually likes Gerrard. Not just rates him, but thinks he's a good lad. I think he'd do a lot better for England without that twat Lumpolard getting in his way and (usually) forcing him to sit back. Not that I'm a big England fan. He also looks like me cousin.

 

The thing is, if all your midfielders are as good as you lot say they are, you'd be world beaters by now, surely? Look at United in the 90s, Giggs, Keane, Scholes, Becks. They didn't need world class finishers, just decent strikers, and we still scored for fun back then. So why, given your class midfield (which I agree on paper is class) haven't the likes of Crouch and Cisse and Fowler and Morientes made any leeway. I mean, those players aren't significantly worse than Cole, Yorke, Ole and Sheringham. (Although I always thought Andy Cole was very underrated, even by fellow Reds.)

[Guest Far and Tether]

No Gerrard = no European or FA Cup. He's that good.

 

I know it's a team game but I don't think you can say that for any of our other players.

 

As you say lets not get into the dreaded 'who is World Class' debate.

 

Oh shite, after saying that, I just went and used the phrase in the above post. Pretend you never saw it!

[Guest TK-421]

I'm one of a very rare breed of Manc who actually likes Gerrard. Not just rates him, but thinks he's a good lad. I think he'd do a lot better for England without that twat Lumpolard getting in his way and (usually) forcing him to sit back. Not that I'm a big England fan. He also looks like me cousin.

 

The thing is, if all your midfielders are as good as you lot say they are, you'd be world beaters by now, surely? Look at United in the 90s, Giggs, Keane, Scholes, Becks. They didn't need world class finishers, just decent strikers, and we still scored for fun back then. So why, given your class midfield (which I agree on paper is class) haven't the likes of Crouch and Cisse and Fowler and Morientes made any leeway. I mean, those players aren't significantly worse than Cole, Yorke, Ole and Sheringham. (Although I always thought Andy Cole was very underrated, even by fellow Reds.)

 

Well for starters we haven't had a left-sided player (recently) of the calibre of Giggs. And last season there was a genuine crisis of confidence amongst the strikers, but then the floodgates opened near the end and Fowler was scoring regularly.

 

Plus it was Momo's first season and obviously the first season using that midfield. Watch them go this season!

[Owen]

I'm one of a very rare breed of Manc who actually likes Gerrard. Not just rates him, but thinks he's a good lad. I think he'd do a lot better for England without that twat Lumpolard getting in his way and (usually) forcing him to sit back. Not that I'm a big England fan. He also looks like me cousin.

 

The thing is, if all your midfielders are as good as you lot say they are, you'd be world beaters by now, surely? Look at United in the 90s, Giggs, Keane, Scholes, Becks. They didn't need world class finishers, just decent strikers, and we still scored for fun back then. So why, given your class midfield (which I agree on paper is class) haven't the likes of Crouch and Cisse and Fowler and Morientes made any leeway. I mean, those players aren't significantly worse than Cole, Yorke, Ole and Sheringham. (Although I always thought Andy Cole was very underrated, even by fellow Reds.)

 

They were worse in my opinion. Crouchy did really well once he'd got his feet under the table last season, but Cisse was atrocious when played up front, Robbie arrived halfway through the season unfit and unplayed, and Morientes just couldn't deal with the pace and physicality of the game over here.

 

This season will (I hope) be different, and if we get Kuyt our strike force will be very similar to yours from the late 90's:

 

Robbie ~ Solskjaer

Bellamy ~ Cole

Crouch ~ Sheringham

Kuyt ~ Yorke

 

 

You also have to consider our lack of width last season. Gerrard and Kewell cut inside a hell of a lot, so our width had to come from the fullbacks. That situation's been addressed this summer with Aureilio/Gonzales for the left and Pennant for the right. How much playing with two wingers and/or changing formation will effect our defensive solidity is another variable.

 

The reason for so much of the optimism on here this summer is that the obvious deficiencies in the team of last season have been largely addressed, and if we could win the "October onwards league" last season (despite Chelsea easing back), then why not?

[Guest Far and Tether]

Well for starters we haven't had a left-sided player (recently) of the calibre of Giggs. And last season there was a genuine crisis of confidence amongst the strikers, but then the floodgates opened near the end and Fowler was scoring regularly.

 

Plus it was Momo's first season and obviously the first season using that midfield. Watch them go this season!

 

Fowler's your Solskjaer. Both legends, loyal as fuck, and the same question currently: how long will they go?

[Guest Far and Tether]

They were worse in my opinion. Crouchy did really well once he'd got his feet under the table last season, but Cisse was atrocious when played up front, Robbie arrived halfway through the season unfit and unplayed, and Morientes just couldn't deal with the pace and physicality of the game over here.

 

This season will (I hope) be different, and if we get Kuyt our strike force will be very similar to yours from the late 90's:

 

Robbie ~ Solskjaer

Bellamy ~ Cole

Crouch ~ Sheringham

Kuyt ~ Yorke

 

 

You also have to consider our lack of width last season. Gerrard and Kewell cut inside a hell of a lot, so our width had to come from the fullbacks. That situation's been addressed this summer with Aureilio/Gonzales for the left and Pennant for the right. How much playing with two wingers and/or changing formation will effect our defensive solidity is another variable.

 

The reason for so much of the optimism on here this summer is that the obvious deficiencies in the team of last season have been largely addressed, and if we could win the "October onwards league" last season (despite Chelsea easing back), then why not?

 

Yeah, I'm not making the mistake that some of the Muppets over on Red Cafe have made, writing your lot off on the basis of a poor preseason. Actually, not many are writing you off, to be fair -- laughing at you of course, but only a true Muppet would go any further. Ronaldo cuts in a lot like Gerrard and Kewell did, and it drives me nuts. Often the momentum is lost, and it narrows the play and he's well capable of skinning the defender (or defender and midfielder as opposition teams tend to double up on him). I can see where the optimism comes from. For us, it's more a cautious optimism -- tempered by a few things (ongoing central midfield issue, Ruud gone), helped by others (some of the young lads are looking good, Carrick and maybe Senna won't exactly hurt our chances).

 

Incidentally, we just beat Oxford(!) 4-1 in a friendly, Ronnie got booed (surprise) and answered with a couple of goals, setting up Solskjaer for a beauty in the process. Our defence looked static from set pieces, apparently, but neither Rio, Wes nor Vidic played. Not sure how the midfield looked (Ronnie, Jones, Fletch, Richardson).

[Guest TK-421]

Fowler's your Solskjaer. Both legends, loyal as fuck, and the same question currently: how long will they go?

 

I think Fowler's got more gas left in the tank and has a better chance of making a telling contribution. Both have been plagued by injuries but Solskjaer's have been worse.

[Guest Far and Tether]

I think Fowler's got more gas left in the tank and has a better chance of making a telling contribution. Both have been plagued by injuries but Solskjaer's have been worse.

 

Too many injuries for Ole, too many pies for Fowler, is closer to the truth! To be fair, I think Fowler lost his motivation when he was with City, like his heart wasn't in it (the training or the games) and he managed to regain his hunger going back to Anfield. Funny player. Hates us, always made me laugh when he held up the four/five fingers since he wasn't part of any of those wins, should hate him back, but I like the game's characters, those with something a bit different. I know everyone got all high and mighty about his touchline snorting escapades, but I thought fair play to the lad. Those Everton fans could dish it but not take it. Nowhere near enough passion in many of today's players, so I welcome the Robbie Fowlers of the world, and if you follow my logic, you have to acknowledge something similar about Gary Neville (ha ha).

[Guest Ulysses Everett McGill]

My point being in order to be successful, you have to make certain compromises which aren't necessarily pleasing.

 

Do you know the Spanish consider you'll as one of theirs?

 

Tell you a little story, and im not baiting at all.

 

At the moment we are renting out one of the rooms of our apartment to a Spanish couple Sergio and Beatrice, they are from Toledo (Just south of Madrid), Sergio only speaks broken English (although its a million times better than my Spanish), but we manage to communicate quite well, anyway, obviously we talk football, he supports Madrid, possibly the biggest club in the world, and yet, all's he ever wants to talk about is Liverpool, not just post-Benitez, but he wants to know it all, the history, the stories, Heysel, Hillsborough, the glory, the heartbreak, absolutely everything, and i couldn't be more proud to be honest, and yet you stand and make your point as if its a bad thing.

 

He's read all i have on Liverpool, but still he's thirsty for more, not because he's a fan of liverpool, but because he's a fan of football.

 

I've got the lad a ticket for the game later today, and to be honest, i think he's more excited than what i am.

 

So what if the Spanish see us as one of thier own, personally i think its something to be immensely proud of.

[Gumsy]

The thing is, if all your midfielders are as good as you lot say they are, you'd be world beaters by now, surely? Look at United in the 90s, Giggs, Keane, Scholes, Becks. They didn't need world class finishers, just decent strikers, and we still scored for fun back then. So why, given your class midfield (which I agree on paper is class) haven't the likes of Crouch and Cisse and Fowler and Morientes made any leeway. I mean, those players aren't significantly worse than Cole, Yorke, Ole and Sheringham. (Although I always thought Andy Cole was very underrated, even by fellow Reds.)

 

 

The "problem" is that our three best midfielders (Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko) are all centre midfielders (although Gerrard is also our best right back and right midfielder!). But with the additions of Aurelio, Gonzalez and Pennant we have more quality on the flanks.

 

And with Bellamy, a fit and hungry Fowler and maybe Kuyt our attack will be far better than last season.

[Captain]

The thing is, if all your midfielders are as good as you lot say they are, you'd be world beaters by now, surely?

We are world beaters. We're the proud owners of the European Cup, and the last English team to win it. ;)

 

I fancy our first eleven's chances against any team in the world. All we need now is the consistency to win the league. To achieve that, we need to score more goals than we did last season.

 

Rafa has made a few changes to make sure that's exactly what's going to happen. Time will tell if he succeeds.

[Guest bigf00t]

Tell you a little story, and im not baiting at all.

 

At the moment we are renting out one of the rooms of our apartment to a Spanish couple Sergio and Beatrice, they are from Toledo (Just south of Madrid), Sergio only speaks broken English (although its a million times better than my Spanish), but we manage to communicate quite well, anyway, obviously we talk football, he supports Madrid, possibly the biggest club in the world, and yet, all's he ever wants to talk about is Liverpool, not just post-Benitez, but he wants to know it all, the history, the stories, Heysel, Hillsborough, the glory, the heartbreak, absolutely everything, and i couldn't be more proud to be honest, and yet you stand and make your point as if its a bad thing.

 

He's read all i have on Liverpool, but still he's thirsty for more, not because he's a fan of liverpool, but because he's a fan of football.

 

I've got the lad a ticket for the game later today, and to be honest, i think he's more excited than what i am.

 

So what if the Spanish see us as one of thier own, personally i think its something to be immensely proud of.

 

Most of us see ourselves as spanish aswell... :)

 

Seriously... who did you prefer to win the WC... England or Spain...

i cant stand England....

 

Vive Espana...!

[Guest Ulysses Everett McGill]

Most of us see ourselves as spanish aswell... :)

 

Seriously... who did you prefer to win the WC... England or Spain...

i cant stand England....

 

Vive Espana...!

 

See now, i ramble on and you make the point that i was trying to in a sentence.