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Israel - A Rant


Rashid
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2 hours ago, an tha said:

I am no supporter of Israel but this is wrong.

 

It is a falsely attributed quote and is inconsistent with Gurion's attitude towards the issue.

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/assassination-quote-falsely-attributed-to-ex-israeli-pm/

He was a renowned terrorist. Read Ilan Pappés Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, he was the prime instigator.

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9 minutes ago, Planet Origi said:

He was a renowned terrorist. Read Ilan Pappés Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, he was the prime instigator.

Those quotes are not his from what i have found online on the matter.

 

Happy to be proven wrong like - but as i say not from what i have read.

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On 10/11/2023 at 04:18, Red Shift said:

Wow. Plan D. In all the journalism on Palestine through the years, only Pilger seems to reference Plan D.

  • Plan Dalet (also known as Plan D) was the blueprint used by the new Israeli army and its militia forerunner to expel indigenous Palestinians from their homeland during Israel’s establishment in 1948. As right-wing Israeli historian Benny Morris noted in his landmark book on the events of 1948, Plan Dalet was "a strategic-ideological anchor and basis for expulsions by front, district, brigade and battalion commanders" providing "post facto a formal persuasive covering note to explain their actions." Today, this act of mass expulsion would be called ethnic cleansing.

https://imeu.org/article/explainer-plan-dalet-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine#:~:text=Plan Dalet (also known as,during Israel's establishment in 1948.

 

4 hours ago, an tha said:

I am no supporter of Israel but this is wrong.

 

It is a falsely attributed quote and is inconsistent with Gurion's attitude towards the issue.

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/assassination-quote-falsely-attributed-to-ex-israeli-pm/

 

 

Writing in the latest edition of the New Statesman, columnist John Pilger launches a scathing diatribe against British PM Tony Blair’s Mideast policies, blaming him for the proliferation of home-grown terrorists and “collusion with the Israeli state in its deliberate, criminal attacks on civilians.” Indeed, Pilger takes the opportunity to viciously attack Israel, describing it as a “racist regime” of “Biblio-ethnic cleansers”.

To back up his case, Pilger relies on quotes that he attributes to Israeli leaders:

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population,” said Israel’s founding prime minister, David Ben-Gurion.

In fact, this fabricated quote is attributed by a number of anti-Israel websites to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig. Even then,

the Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written….As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using “terror,” “assassination,” “intimidation” or “land confiscations.”

 

In another quote, Pilger claims that Ariel Sharon said:

It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion … that there can be no Zionism, colonisation or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.

Yet again, Pilger has falsely attributed a quote. In this case a simple Google search reveals that even anti-Israel websites claim that this quote is from Yoram Bar Porath in Yediot Aahronot of 14 July 1972. In others, it has simply been updated and attributed to Ariel Sharon decades later with the sole intent of promoting demonisation of Israel, a trap that Pilger is evidently only too pleased to fall into.

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5 hours ago, an tha said:

I am no supporter of Israel but this is wrong.

 

It is a falsely attributed quote and is inconsistent with Gurion's attitude towards the issue.

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/assassination-quote-falsely-attributed-to-ex-israeli-pm/


I have no doubt that you are not biased. You are one of the few users on this forum that I highly respect and appreciate.

 

Thank you for sharing that link. I stand to be corrected if that particular quote was not correct. Although I have to say there are is lot of Zionist propaganda aimed at dispelling and burying the truth.
 

The fact that Ben Gurion had that attitude towards the issue has been documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” using official Israeli documents and direct quotes from Ben Gurion’s own diary.

 

https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf

 

Here are some of the quotes from his own diary:

 

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html#David Ben-Gurion

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1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

 

 

Writing in the latest edition of the New Statesman, columnist John Pilger launches a scathing diatribe against British PM Tony Blair’s Mideast policies, blaming him for the proliferation of home-grown terrorists and “collusion with the Israeli state in its deliberate, criminal attacks on civilians.” Indeed, Pilger takes the opportunity to viciously attack Israel, describing it as a “racist regime” of “Biblio-ethnic cleansers”.

To back up his case, Pilger relies on quotes that he attributes to Israeli leaders:

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population,” said Israel’s founding prime minister, David Ben-Gurion.

In fact, this fabricated quote is attributed by a number of anti-Israel websites to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig. Even then,

the Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written….As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using “terror,” “assassination,” “intimidation” or “land confiscations.”

 

In another quote, Pilger claims that Ariel Sharon said:

It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion … that there can be no Zionism, colonisation or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.

Yet again, Pilger has falsely attributed a quote. In this case a simple Google search reveals that even anti-Israel websites claim that this quote is from Yoram Bar Porath in Yediot Aahronot of 14 July 1972. In others, it has simply been updated and attributed to Ariel Sharon decades later with the sole intent of promoting demonisation of Israel, a trap that Pilger is evidently only too pleased to fall into.


I admire your diligent pursuit of the truth. I hope you’ve had a great time relaxing at the swimming pool. 

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9 hours ago, Jurgen Knows said:


I have no doubt that you are not biased. You are one of the few users on this forum that I highly respect and appreciate.

 

Thank you for sharing that link. I stand to be corrected if that particular quote was not correct. Although I have to say there are is lot of Zionist propaganda aimed at dispelling and burying the truth.
 

The fact that Ben Gurion had that attitude towards the issue has been documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” using official Israeli documents and direct quotes from Ben Gurion’s own diary.

 

https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf

 

Here are some of the quotes from his own diary:

 

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html#David Ben-Gurion

I appreciate the kind words.

 

I need to research Gurion a bit further - but from what I knew already (not a lot) and what I have read so far (not enough to be totally sure) those comments don't seem to fit.

 

For example i found this quote of his interesting:

 

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

 

But as I say i'll dig a bit deeper....

 

 

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dig a bit deeper....

 

Have a read up on the Peel Commission.

The quote in question appeared in many forms decades before Pappe's book and has been dissected by scholars of every faith.

 

there were several words crossed out in the middle of the relevant sentence, rendering what remained as “We must expel the Arabs …” But Ben-Gurion rarely made corrections to anything he had written, and this passage was not consonant with the spirit of the paragraph in which it was embedded. It was suggested that the crossing out was done by some other hand, later — and that the sentence, when the words that were crossed out were restored, was meant by Ben-Gurion to say and said exactly the opposite (“We must not expel the Arabs … ”).

 

 

The pool is crystal clear.

 

Surprising that with all this talk about Pappe there is no mention of current events.

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Karim Khan ICC prosecutor in Sunday Times “I am not saying that Israel with its democracy and its supreme court is akin to Hamas, of course not. I couldn’t be clearer, Israel has every right to protect its population and to get the hostages back. But nobody has a licence to commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. The means define us. “There were attempts to kill Margaret Thatcher, Airey Neave was blown up, Lord Mountbatten was blown up, there was the Enniskillen attack, we had kneecappings … But the British didn’t decide to say, ‘Well, on the Falls Road [the heart of Catholic Belfast] there undoubtedly may be some IRA members and Republican sympathisers, so therefore let’s drop a 2,000lb bomb on the Falls Road.’ You can’t do that. “Law must have some purpose, that’s what separates states that respect the law from criminal groups and terrorists. And that’s all I have been trying to do, apply law based on facts, and that’s what we must do whatever condemnation we get.” 

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32 minutes ago, an tha said:

I appreciate the kind words.

 

I need to research Gurion a bit further - but from what I knew already (not a lot) and what I have read so far (not enough to be totally sure) those comments don't seem to fit.

 

For example i found this quote of his interesting:

 

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

 

But as I say i'll dig a bit deeper....

 

 


That quote you cite was said when he was discussing with his people whether they should accept the 1948 UN partition plan or not. The Zionists weren’t happy with what they were given by the UN partition plan. They wanted more. Ben Gurion was reassuring them that they don’t have to declare their rejection of it because the Arabs won’t accept it anyway, hence that quote. He was convincing them to wait for the Arabs to reject it so Zionists could claim later that it was the Arabs’ fault all along that a peaceful agreement was not reached.

 

If you’re interested in facts and the truth then I suggest you read Ilan Pappe’s book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”.

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5 minutes ago, Jurgen Knows said:


That quote you cite was said when he was discussing with his people whether they should accept the 1948 UN partition plan or not.

 

The quote that was cited was from a personal letter written in 1937.

 

Maybe you should read a couple different books.

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16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

The quote that was cited was from a personal letter written in 1937.

 

Maybe you should read a couple different books.


The discussions I mentioned happened in 1948 as well as in 1937 during the British days when they were trying to find solutions. The idea is the same. He didn’t say these words out of compassion for the Palestinians.

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Not sure what you are on about here - he never said the quote in any setting - it was written to his son. Once, in 1937. The misused quote very well may have had additions to it as the written letter shows - that is what Pilger, and Pappe have quoted.

 

This may be a good time to point out I have never stated any belief/opinion about policies in this thread - every instance has been in debating misinformation. Not because of support for any "side".

Just because it is wrong. There has been quite a bit.

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I’m not too interested about your personal opinion to be honest.

 

I’m interested in facts, and have no problem in stating that I was wrong about the year and the setting but not about the motive, which is the key point here. My memory didn’t serve me well. It was indeed not the time of the 1948 UN partition plan that brought up this quote. It was the 1937 Peel Commission partition plan. The motive remains the same though: he didn’t say these words out of sympathy with the Palestinians.

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