Israel - A Rant

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Em City said:

Well, as long you don't "believe" it, I'm sure that's everybody else's opinion on the matter invalidated.

Please state in plain terms the reason you think "people get so "het up" on the issue?

I'll admit I don't know why people get so much more het up about this than they do about other similar or worse issues elsewhere. I'm at a loss to explain it. Don't kill me for it.

[Captain Turdseye]

“Shaking like a leaf” and “Reduced to tears” yet still coming on to this thread and others acting the knob. 

 

I’m calling bullshit. 

[Strontium]

10 minutes ago, Captain Turdseye said:

“Shaking like a leaf” and “Reduced to tears” yet still coming on to this thread and others acting the knob. 

I’m calling bullshit. 

I don't care what you think. I don't need your approval to validate how I feel. This shit is real for me in a way you would never understand, and could never understand.

[moof]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog said:

I'd love nothing more than a civil discussion. Do you think negging me every time I dare to disagree with you is conducive to civil discourse? Because it looks like an attempt to bully me into silence. The idea that the incivility is something that originates with me is risible to me. I am petrified to post here, and I'd bet that nobody else feels that way.

However, let's assume you are serious, and proceed in that manner. Yes, I made a snarky comment. There are three main reasons I did this. Firstly, I didn't have time for anything more than a pithy one liner. Secondly, because I think this entire topic is set up to be an echo chamber, where anyone who doesn't concur with the central pillar - that the only liberal democracy in the Middle East is a uniquely evil regime in the region - is taking a big risk by even contributing.

But thirdly, and most pertinently, if I post about an Israel settler being murdered by a Palestinian, then it opens me up to the lie that I care more about Israeli lives than I do about the lives of others. It's an accusation you've made of me before, so you can hardly be surprised if I am wary.

You can't create a situation where I dread even looking at a topic because it causes me to physically shake like a leaf and then complain that my contribution is limited to a bit of hit-and-run sarcasm. Sorry, but no. This is a hostile environment, and I didn't create that.

To answer your other points: yes, Israel violates international law, never denied it. No, I'm not trying to deflect from anything, how could I when everyone is so set in their opinions, that nothing I post would make the blindest difference.

So far as people not being racists is concerned, I'd have a bit more faith in that notion if we could get some kind of general acceptance of the idea that Jews in Israel actually have some kind of right to be there, instead of having them painted as white European colonisers. Other than me and Rico, not one person pulled Angry up when he described Jewish refugees to Palestine as conquerors. It reduced me to tears, and nobody gave a shit.

Whether people like it or not, the principle underpinning Jewish claims to the land of Israel is the same principle that underpins Arab claims to their land.

 

 

This is absolutely risible. Nothing more, nothing less. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, moof said:

This is absolutely risible. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I'd love to be allowed to type dismissive one liners like you.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

When you have people who would rather talk about a massacre 36 years ago simply because Israel happens to bear indirect responsibility for it, ignoring the fact that similar bloodshed is being perpetrated right at this very moment in Yemen, Syria etc, then you have to start drawing obvious conclusions - people just aren't arsed unless it's something they can pin on Israel.

Once you've established that, then it's just a matter of establishing why. If you have an alternative explanation for why certain people are incensed by Israel in a way that they aren't by anyone else, let's hear it.

If you start from a false premise  (that people are ignoring the bloodshed in Syria, Yemen, etc.) then you're bound to end at a false conclusion. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

If you start from a false premise  (that people are ignoring the bloodshed in Syria, Yemen, etc.) then you're bound to end at a false conclusion. 

Is there a boycott movement against Saudi Arabia?

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

Is there a boycott movement against Saudi Arabia?

Yes.

[moof]

6 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

I'd love to be allowed to type dismissive one liners like you.

You are free to do whatever you like. 

[Strontium]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yes.

Good. I've never heard of them, but good.

[ZonkoVille77]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog said:

So far as people not being racists is concerned, I'd have a bit more faith in that notion if we could get some kind of general acceptance of the idea that Jews in Israel actually have some kind of right to be there, instead of having them painted as white European colonisers.

I think you'll find 'most' people have no issue with Jews being in Palestine. Those that do believe Jews should be there, believe the state of Israel should treat Palestinians that were living there before them with the utmost humanity - not destroy their homes, livelihoods, infrastructure etc.

Jews absolutely have a right to live there also. The historical links to the land for Jews cannot be argued against. I've never heard anyone argue against the Jews not having a valid claim to the land.

Those that don't want Jews there usually fall into 2 categories:

1 - Palestinians who have been driven from their homes and have had their families murdered, land taken. Their lives destroyed.

2 - Real Anti-Semites who just hate Jews full stop. These are usually the same numbskulls who don't like anyone who isn't white.

Quote

Whether people like it or not, the principle underpinning Jewish claims to the land of Israel is the same principle that underpins Arab claims to their land.

I've never seen anyone argue against that.

I've also never seen Palestinian Arabs drop chemical weapons and cluster bombs onto Israeli children from fighter jets.

[Anubis]

I've read some of the replies above regarding mansion of Syria, Yemen and Saudi Arabia.

Let's fire up the Delorean and go back to 2015.

 

 

It carries on throughout the thread.

[Strontium]

19 minutes ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

I think you'll find 'most' people have no issue with Jews being in Palestine. Those that do believe Jews should be there, believe the state of Israel should treat Palestinians that were living there before them with the utmost humanity - not destroy their homes, livelihoods, infrastructure etc.

Jews absolutely have a right to live there also. The historical links to the land for Jews cannot be argued against. I've never heard anyone argue against the Jews not having a valid claim to the land.

Those that don't want Jews there usually fall into 2 categories:

1 - Palestinians who have been driven from their homes and have had their families murdered, land taken. Their lives destroyed.

2 - Real Anti-Semites who just hate Jews full stop. These are usually the same numbskulls who don't like anyone who isn't white.

I've never seen anyone argue against that.

I've also never seen Palestinian Arabs drop chemical weapons and cluster bombs onto Israeli children from fighter jets.

But you understand, when I see so many people opposing "Zionism", which in its most essential form is merely the right of self-determination for the Jewish people, where the confusion comes in? And when you have organisations like Hamas, who hold the destruction of Israel as a founding principle, being defended, it obviously causes confusion too.

Bad things happen in war. I don't think anyone claims otherwise. I'd like to get to a point where there isn't a war any more.

[Jairzinho]

Love the Saudi regime, me. But only because they're Muslims.

[Numero Veinticinco]

I'm going to take a minute and step back from replying to that. At this point I want to go in with both feet, because I think it's pretty disgraceful, so I'll take a breath and reply when I can do so without being as destructive as I can. 

[Strontium]

27 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I'm going to take a minute and step back from replying to that. At this point I want to go in with both feet, because I think it's pretty disgraceful, so I'll take a breath and reply when I can do so without being as destructive as I can. 

I'm very sorry you feel that way. I can only be honest about how I feel. I find this topic very, very hard to deal with, and if you think I have been unfair in some way, I want to know. If it's too hot for TV, feel free to PM it to me instead.

EDIT: If you want context for my feelings, maybe you should go back to page 1 of the thread. One poster refers to Israelis as "rats" and another calls for Israel to be relocated. And that's just the first page.

[ZonkoVille77]

34 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

But you understand, when I see so many people opposing "Zionism", which in its most essential form is merely the right of self-determination for the Jewish people, where the confusion comes in? And when you have organisations like Hamas, who hold the destruction of Israel as a founding principle, being defended, it obviously causes confusion too.

Bad things happen in war. I don't think anyone claims otherwise. I'd like to get to a point where there isn't a war any more.

If 'Zionism' was merely a means to 'repatriation' of Jews to Palestine, without violence or mass expulsion of Palestinians, it would be easier to swallow. Unfortunately it isn't. It has many forms, many of which are racist, isolationist, and inherently violent. 

I've no time for Hamas. But I can see why they exist. Just as the IRA, ETA etc. came to exist. I'd suggest it's quite easy to nullify Hamas. Militarily they haven't a patch on the IDF. If Israel treated Palestinians better then Hamas' position would be considerably weakened. 

I'm also not impressed with your statement that bad things happen in war. There isn't a war. There's one strong IDF side bullying a weaker side into submission. Ironically, a David v Goliath situation except David gets fucked up big time.

Does Israel think that as soon as they get rid of all Palestinians from the land that they will live in peace for eternity? History tells us that aggressors eventually fall, and fall hard. 

[cloggypop]

I've just formed TLW Friends Of SD and will be writing a letter to the Times demanding that NV is removed from the website for his dogged pursuit. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by cloggypop

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

There's quite a few disturbing patterns of behaviour early on in this thread. 

Some unacceptable terminology and language. And some shrinking, petrified violets who post in here (while doing their utmost not to involuntarily empty their bladder due to the fear that merely reading posts in here causes them) whipping out their go to card at the earliest opportunity and waving it around with the reckless abandon that you normally associate with Martin Atkinson's yellow card at a Goodison derby.

It's inspiring that some people can be so ruddy, bloody brave in the face of such a hostile and terrifying environment. 

 

[Strontium]

10 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

I've just formed TLW Friends Of SD and will be writing a letter to the Times demanding that NV is removed from the website for his dogged pursuit. 

I don't want him removed, I just want to understand him. I can't rationalise any of it and it's very perturbing.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

I don't want him removed, I just want to understand him. I can't rationalise any of it and it's very perturbing.

Bullshit.

[Jairzinho]

No-one else is having a problem understanding him.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

20 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

I've just formed TLW Friends Of SD and will be writing a letter to the Times demanding that NV is removed from the website for his dogged pursuit. 

John Mann is on his way round to NV's house  (with a camera crew in tow, of course) to scream in his face.

[Strontium]

3 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Bullshit.

It most certainly isn't. Why would I admit to not understanding something if I understood it? It's the worst thing I could ever admit about myself.

[Captain Turdseye]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog said:

I'm very sorry you feel that way. I can only be honest about how I feel. I find this topic very, very hard to deal with, and if you think I have been unfair in some way, I want to know. If it's too hot for TV, feel free to PM it to me instead.

EDIT: If you want context for my feelings, maybe you should go back to page 1 of the thread. One poster refers to Israelis as "rats" and another calls for Israel to be relocated. And that's just the first page.

 

So it’s posts on a message board from 13 years ago that are making you tremble and cry?

Or is it the more recent stuff, like the responses to you calling you out on bullshit like falsely labelling Jeremy Corbyn an anti-semite?

I’ve seen been absolutely nothing racially charged thrown at you on here since this whole ‘Labour is anti-semetic’ row erupted. If it had happened everyone would have condemned it, like they have done before. What I have is seen plenty of you being a snarky cunt with an obvious agenda but now you’re playing the victim card. Why? Who are the racists on here? Who’s making you quiver in your boots?