Israel - A Rant

[Strontium]

11 minutes ago, Istvan Kuntstain said:

No it's about Zionism, it's always been about Zionism, do the Kurds have their own state? do the Basques? do the Catalans? do the Ughyars? do the tamils? ffs on and on

 

I mean, I'm not opposed to the national liberation movements of other people, if that's what you're asking. Albeit the Basques are probably safer in Spain than the Kurds are in Iraq and Turkey. If it was up to me I would establish Kurdistan yesterday.

[Section_31]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I mean, I'm not opposed to the national liberation movements of other people, if that's what you're asking. Albeit the Basques are probably safer in Spain than the Kurds are in Iraq and Turkey. If it was up to me I would establish Kurdistan yesterday.

That's the kind of line I used to use on first dates, I was single a while. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

7 minutes ago, Numero said:

Acknowledging that Israeli Snipers have killed teenagers in the back of the head, unarmed men, and shot young men as they are lying in the street isn’t playing into a a racist trope, it’s acknowledging video evidence of these things happening. To attempt to deflect these things as such is absolutely grim. We know how some Israeli forces act, we know the attitude they have, and we know it because they tell anyone who will listen. It’s such a shame to see criticism of these behaviours and actions dismissed as racism. 

Yes. If your average coloniser thinks in such a way as this clown does, you'd imagine that such dehumanising, psychopathic ideology runs right through the I"D"F ranks. 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1392585374053113858

[Strontium]

12 minutes ago, Numero said:

Acknowledging that Israeli Snipers have killed teenagers in the back of the head, unarmed men, and shot young men as they are lying in the street isn’t playing into a a racist trope, it’s acknowledging video evidence of these things happening. To attempt to deflect these things as such is absolutely grim. We know how some Israeli forces act, we know the attitude they have, and we know it because they tell anyone who will listen. It’s such a shame to see criticism of these behaviours and actions dismissed as racism. 

 

Oh mate, wait until you find out what the British did in Ireland.

 

Guess we should dismantle Britain. Which country are you going to move to?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

7 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Oh mate, wait until you find out what the British did in Ireland.

 

Guess we should dismantle Britain. Which country are you going to move to?

Wibble wibble. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Oh mate, wait until you find out what the British did in Ireland.

 

Guess we should dismantle Britain. Which country are you going to move to?

Right. More whataboutery and deflection and an added bonus straw man. If I had said that Israel should be dismantled and everybody should move out because of it, you might have had reason to post that strangeness. But I didn’t, I said people shouldn’t deflect from the crimes of Israeli soldiers by crying racism because acknowledging these horrible things doesn’t make you racist, it just means you have eyes. 

[Strontium]

4 minutes ago, Numero said:

Right. More whataboutery and deflection and an added bonus straw man. If I had said that Israel should be dismantled and everybody should move out because of it, you might have had reason to post that strangeness. But I didn’t, I said people shouldn’t deflect from the crimes of Israeli soldiers by crying racism because acknowledging these horrible things doesn’t make you racist, it just means you have eyes. 

 

It's fair to say that my post, while responding to you, wasn't aimed at you.

 

A little bit more general awareness of the crimes every single nation on this planet have at one point perpetrated wouldn't go amiss. It might stop people going around screaming "Baby killer!" at anyone who supports a nation's right to exist.

 

I support Britain's right to exist, and I support the right of British people to live in peace and security. It doesn't mean I think the Amritsar Massacre or Bloody Sunday or Robson & Jerome's Greatest Hits are things to be celebrated.

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

It's fair to say that my post, while responding to you, wasn't aimed at you.

 

A little bit more general awareness of the crimes every single nation on this planet have at one point perpetrated wouldn't go amiss. It might stop people going around screaming "Baby killer!" at anyone who supports a nation's right to exist.

 

I support Britain's right to exist, and I support the right of British people to live in peace and security. It doesn't mean I think the Amritsar Massacre or Bloody Sunday or Robson & Jerome's Greatest Hits are things to be celebrated.

Nobody had called you a baby killer SD have they? (Granted I may have in an angry outburst that I don’t recall but I’m pretty certain I and nobody else on here has called you a baby killer or thinks you’re a baby killer) 

[Strontium]

5 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Nobody had called you a baby killer SD have they? (Granted I may have in an angry outburst that I don’t recall but I’m pretty certain I and nobody else on here has called you a baby killer or thinks you’re a baby killer) 

 

You've said I support killing children. It's not a million miles away, is it.

 

I really, really don't want anyone to die. At the same time, I think Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks, and that is almost always going to involve lethal force against militants. Because how else would you stop them?

 

3 minutes ago, Istvan Kuntstain said:

Another fun fact is the jewish Immigrants in 1920's refused to sell to arabs and refused to hire them!

 

A bit simplified, but I'd hope we wouldn't use what was acceptable in the 1920s as an excuse for things in the 2020s.

 

Hebrew labor - Wikipedia

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

It's fair to say that my post, while responding to you, wasn't aimed at you.

 

A little bit more general awareness of the crimes every single nation on this planet have at one point perpetrated wouldn't go amiss. It might stop people going around screaming "Baby killer!" at anyone who supports a nation's right to exist.

 

I support Britain's right to exist, and I support the right of British people to live in peace and security. It doesn't mean I think the Amritsar Massacre or Bloody Sunday or Robson & Jerome's Greatest Hits are things to be celebrated.

Okay, but I’m the context of me, my posts, and this thread… I think it’s fair to say that it’s not racist for people to talk about Israeli snipers and their itchy trigger fingers. That’s the only point I made. In the Israel thread. In response to the trope of ‘Jew baby killers’.
 

Also, although I’m knowingly buying into the deflection, I don’t feel like I need to acknowledge the actions of every country has ever taken every time I post here. No more than I would post, ‘yeah but Israel shoot teens in the back of the head and snip their legs off’ in a thread about Ireland. Because that would be a fucking mental requirement. 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

You've said I support killing children. It's not a million miles away, is it.

 

I really, really don't want anyone to die. At the same time, I think Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks, and that is almost always going to involve lethal force against militants. Because how else would you stop them?

 

 

Hebrew labor - Wikipedia

So it’s not the same is it. 
 

Do you think Hamas have the right to defend themselves against Israeli rocket attacks? 

[Razoray]

4 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I have hammered terrorists on many threads for years; please don't conflate them with ordinary Palestinians, who are as much victims of Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc as anyone.

 

I don't know which of my countries you're referring to, Britain I presume. I'm doubtful that my Irish ancestors who fled Ireland in the wake of a famine, or my Jewish ancestors who fled Lithuania in the wake of Russian persecution, would agree that they personally benefitted from the British Empire. But I accept the general point.

You said:

"while remaining silent on injustices of the past from which you have personally benefitted" ....I'm going to pull you up on it"

 

 

You didn't mention anything about their ancestors (The ancestors of the posters you were talking to probably had nothing to do with the treatment of the Native Americans either).

You said that those posters are silent about the injustices of the past from which they have personally benefitted.

I'm saying that you have personally benefitted from the injustices of the country that you live in and you are silent on it. Should someone pull you up on it and use it as a strawman whenever you discuss issues like this? 
 

[Strontium]

3 minutes ago, Numero said:

Okay, but I’m the context of me, my posts, and this thread… I think it’s fair to say that it’s not racist for people to talk about Israeli snipers and their itchy trigger fingers. That’s the only point I made. In the Israel thread. In response to the trope of ‘Jew baby killers’.

 

I think if, for the sake of argument, Israel and Hamas have killed civilians, then it's questionable to single Israel out for it and to totally ignore or make excuses for when Hamas does it. Especially if Hamas are specifically trying to kill civilians and those killed by Israel were collateral deaths.

 

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Do you think Hamas have the right to defend themselves against Israeli rocket attacks? 

 

Hamas are not defending themselves against anything. They initiated the rocket attacks.

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, Razoray said:

You said:

"while remaining silent on injustices of the past from which you have personally benefitted" ....I'm going to pull you up on it"

 

You didn't mention anything about their ancestors (The ancestors of the posters you were talking to probably had nothing to do with the treatment of the Native Americans either).

You said that those posters are silent about the injustices of the past from which they have personally benefitted.

I'm saying that you have personally benefitted from the injustices of the country that you live in and you are silent on it. Should someone pull you up on it and use it as a strawman whenever you discuss issues like this? 

 

But I'm not saying that the USA/Canada/Britain/etc lack legitimacy as a result of past transgressions, am I. If I start to do those things, then you would be absolutely entitled to pull me up for hypocrisy.

[Razoray]

No, you said that people from those countries had less legitimacy to discuss injustices elsewhere. Its a stupid argument and please stop doing it.

People might disagree with your views on here but you do add to the discussion and there are things to be learned from your posts. You let yourself down massively when you do shit like this. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

6 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

So it’s not the same is it. 
 

Do you think Hamas have the right to defend themselves against Israeli rocket attacks? 

This is the wrong narrative, for me. The question should be if Hamas and the Palestinian people have the right to resist subjugation, oppressive racism, apartheid policies, war crimes, land grabs etc. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

think if, for the sake of argument, Israel and Hamas have killed civilians, then it's questionable to single Israel out for it and to totally ignore or make excuses for when Hamas does it. Especially if Hamas are specifically trying to kill civilians and those killed by Israel were collateral deaths.

I think you’re attempting to deflect and I think you are making things up. I haven’t singled out anyone. I haven’t ignored or made excuses for Hamas - a group in utterly detest, as I’ve said many times, including many times after you talk about Hamas being ignored - and Israel doesn’t only kill civilians due to collateral damage. We know this. We all know this. Nobody is sat here arguing that Hamas targeting civilians is okay because of [insert any reason]. Only some are deflecting and calling it racism when Israeli killings happen. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

This is the wrong narrative, for me. The question should be if Hamas and the Palestinian people have the right to resist subjugation, oppressive racism, apartheid policies, war crimes, land grabs etc. 

Yes, they do. But not by targeting civilians. Not by sending unguided bombs into fuck knows where they’ll land. The first way to stop terrorism is by stopping your involvement in it. I understand why some people take the actions they do, but that’s not the same as condoning it. 

[torahboy]

56 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

you can’t help yourself. Have Arab Israelis homes been bulldozed in Israel? Like I said thick or a liar. I know what it is. So do you. You’re a disgrace to humanity. Thoroughly evil selfish disgusting excuse for a man. 

 

 

He refers to me as an 'anti Semite' and if all the Jews I have encountered had been like him then I would be a rabid anti Semite.

 

Happily, my experience of Jewish people has been nothing but positive. From the lady who helped clothe my family by selling us goods 'on the drip' when I was a kid down Scotland Road, to the Schecita cutters (who explained why there were so many holidays on the Jewish calendar) when I worked in the slaughterhouse at Stanley market, to the hedge fund manager who married my niece a few years back, I have had only good interactions with followers of the Jewish faith, Orthodox or Reform. All supported the state of Israel - some of them had even been there - but I am certain none of them would view the current treatment of Palestinians and their home as being anything other than an atrocity. Maybe they'd attempt to understand it and find an explanantion for it, but, I believe, they would never excuse or condone it. 

 

It sickens me that the apologists for Netanyahu's thugs accuse those who take sides with the cause of the Palestinian people of anti Semitism, who accuse those who might reprimand and sanction Israel at a political level of anti Semitism, brand those who draw parallels with Israel and the former South Africa as anti Semites. I wonder how normally intelligent, humanity advancing, deeply humourous and caring people turn into savages at the sight of a Palestinian flag. Hitler could never diminish their lust for life and adding to its worth, so how come the sight of an Arab with a slingshot makes them willing to kill? It depends on the nature of the person.You may have captured the Dog's perfectly.

 

Shalom.

 

 

[Bjornebye]

10 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

 

Hamas are not defending themselves against anything. They initiated the rocket attacks.

No they didn’t. But you’ve answered my question. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

2 minutes ago, Numero said:

Yes, they do. But not by targeting civilians. Not by sending unguided bombs into fuck knows where they’ll land. The first way to stop terrorism is by stopping your involvement in it. I understand why some people take the actions they do, but that’s not the same as condoning it. 

True. 

 

Desperate people often behave instinctively. 

[Strontium]

7 minutes ago, Istvan Kuntstain said:

No I was pointing out that most that seek nationalist movements that seek self determination do not achieve it, and ifI oppose Catalan it's own state I'm not being anti Catalan.

I feel it is better to be more inclusive and not productive to have a state based on just ethnic nationlism and as such feel the state if Israel is the opposite, So I'd prefer the spanish to be more inclusive of the Catalans etc much like I'd prefer Israel who clearly appreciate self determination as a universal right to then deny specific people this right instead of being inclusive, it makes no sense to me and only leads one way. 

 

I think it would be great if people could live in peace without any states, let alone states along ethnic lines. It's just not always realistic.

 

I think it would be great if we didn't need women's refuges too, but I don't think the people who run them are sexists.

 

4 minutes ago, Numero said:

I think you’re attempting to deflect and I think you are making things up. I haven’t singled out anyone. I haven’t ignored or made excuses for Hamas - a group in utterly detest, as I’ve said many times, including many times after you talk about Hamas being ignored - and Israel doesn’t only kill civilians due to collateral damage. We know this. We all know this. Nobody is sat here arguing that Hamas targeting civilians is okay because of [insert any reason]. Only some are deflecting and calling it racism when Israeli killings happen. 

 

Well, I do think some people are trying to portray Hamas, who are literal Nazis, as if they were noble freedom fighters fighting for a free Palestine rather than genocidal maniacs who object to the very existence of Jewish people. And things are a hundred times worse on Twitter than they are here.

[Bjornebye]

“Literal Nazis” 

[Strontium]

3 minutes ago, Istvan Kuntstain said:

You see to me the only ones who are genocidal are those in charge of Israel.

I see israel as the oppressors where as you don't.

 

I don't see Israel as genocidal but I do see Israel as oppressive. I call Hamas genocidal because genocide is their openly stated aim.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

Skids put me on ignore and take his cock out of your mouth. He’s going round calling people racists and jew haters for calling out his lies. 

Mate, it was advice. Take it.