Our midfield

[Jairzinho]

13 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I used the phrase cut our losses on Chamberlain as I wouldn't have looked for a fee. There seemed a bit of interest in him early in the summer till it was clear we wanted 10m. I'd have just got him out of the way. 

This is the flip side of our insistence on always waiting for what we consider top value. The good side is getting £15m for Ibe, etc. The bad side is you have a player in the squad contributing fuck all for four years because you believed it was possible to get an extra £1.5m or whatever.

 

It doesn't feel like we're flexible/dynamic enough with our strategy with this stuff. Does Klopp feel that he simply doesnt have enough funds to be as ruthless as he'd like? Genuinely have no idea, or whether or not it's even his call.

[Jose Jones]

Klopp treats players with respect even if he’d rather they fuck off. And he respects contracts.

Other managers might be slagging them in the media or forcing them to train with the kids to just get them out of the door.

[HBenn]

5 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

This is the flip side of our insistence on always waiting for what we consider top value. The good side is getting £15m for Ibe, etc. The bad side is you have a player in the squad contributing fuck all for four years because you believed it was possible to get an extra £1.5m or whatever.

 

It doesn't feel like we're flexible/dynamic enough with our strategy with this stuff. Does Klopp feel that he simply doesnt have enough funds to be as ruthless as he'd like? Genuinely have no idea, or whether or not it's even his call.

I think that is a fair point. Often our strategy seems on a number of things to be completely inflexible.

[VladimirIlyich]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

It's all the more reason why we should have refreshed it, have a couple in the group who hadn't been through the games and the loss at the end. We should have cut our losses on Chamberlain and not renewed milner and brought in one or two new players. With keita going next summer, thiago will then be into his last year, it wouldn't seem a jump to suggest we could still sign whoever it is we're supposed to be holding out for. 

While I have been a critic of Milner in the past I think he's had an excellent start to the season and didnt deserve to be subbed on Monday. We were better with him on the pitch. If he keeps this level up,even as cameos,he's worth his place far more than OC and Keita combined.

[Barrington Womble]

7 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

This is the flip side of our insistence on always waiting for what we consider top value. The good side is getting £15m for Ibe, etc. The bad side is you have a player in the squad contributing fuck all for four years because you believed it was possible to get an extra £1.5m or whatever.

 

It doesn't feel like we're flexible/dynamic enough with our strategy with this stuff. Does Klopp feel that he simply doesnt have enough funds to be as ruthless as he'd like? Genuinely have no idea, or whether or not it's even his call.

I'd have thought what is percieved as value is completely out of klopp's hands, but he is very happy for that to be the case. Let other people do the business and he will do the management of the footballing side of the club. So when it comes to someone like Chamberlain, I would imagine the club say "he's 10m" and klopp says he'll work with the player until the 10m comes in. Chamberlain has been finished since that injury. All he's done since is cost us his 6m per year in wages. I don't understand the maths in it, but clearly the club think that's value compared to replacing him. 

 

It's starting to look like the improved fitness records we got out of some of our players last season was maybe just a bit of luck and we're now reverting to normal. It's a big problem as last year's success was underpinned by that improved fitness record. 

[VladimirIlyich]

14 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

This is the flip side of our insistence on always waiting for what we consider top value. The good side is getting £15m for Ibe, etc. The bad side is you have a player in the squad contributing fuck all for four years because you believed it was possible to get an extra £1.5m or whatever.

 

It doesn't feel like we're flexible/dynamic enough with our strategy with this stuff. Does Klopp feel that he simply doesnt have enough funds to be as ruthless as he'd like? Genuinely have no idea, or whether or not it's even his call.

When I hear a story like this,if true,I often think about a grubby agent or agency turning these transfers down because they want their own cut to be bigger.

Also,while our transfer policy has largely been brilliant the midfield signings are where we've probably not done as well. This is probably more to do with how we use our midfielders more than anything else though.

[Barrington Womble]

3 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

While I have been a critic of Milner in the past I think he's had an excellent start to the season and didnt deserve to be subbed on Monday. We were better with him on the pitch. If he keeps this level up,even as cameos,he's worth his place far more than OC and Keita combined.

We'll have to agree to disagree about milner. His mobility is woeful and he's targeted as the part of the pitch to pass through and when he's pressing he just can't stop and turn quickly enough and it leaves big gaps. I think he's a libility when we're without the ball. All 3 of the starters last week were poor and I thought fab again this week, but he always takes games to improve and is a slow starter. I remain to be convinced about what henderson still has in the tank too. He puts himself out there, but physically he looks a shadow of the player he was. This is why we needed to freshen things up. Those two look off it physically, thiago is where he spends half his time, Jones seems to be modelling himself on that aspect of thiago, Chamberlain was done physically years ago. The midfield needs freshening up. 

[Jairzinho]

11 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'd have thought what is percieved as value is completely out of klopp's hands, but he is very happy for that to be the case. Let other people do the business and he will do the management of the footballing side of the club. So when it comes to someone like Chamberlain, I would imagine the club say "he's 10m" and klopp says he'll work with the player until the 10m comes in. Chamberlain has been finished since that injury. All he's done since is cost us his 6m per year in wages. I don't understand the maths in it, but clearly the club think that's value compared to replacing him. 

 

It's starting to look like the improved fitness records we got out of some of our players last season was maybe just a bit of luck and we're now reverting to normal. It's a big problem as last year's success was underpinned by that improved fitness record. 

Yes, in normal circumstances it probably should be completely out of his hands and almost certainly is. However, it has a big impact on his job, as you've alluded to. The club can say to him Chamberlain is worth 10m, and Klopp can reply that taking 37p for him tomorrow will probably make the club more (or lose less) money in the long term. Like you, I don't understand the maths behind the club's "philosophy". Transfers don't happen in a vacuum and the sport, and the circumstances for an individual club, can change extremely quickly. 

 

 

[Barrington Womble]

16 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Yes, in normal circumstances it probably should be completely out of his hands and almost certainly is. However, it has a big impact on his job, as you've alluded to. The club can say to him Chamberlain is worth 10m, and Klopp can reply that taking 37p for him tomorrow will probably make the club more (or lose less) money in the long term. Like you, I don't understand the maths behind the club's "philosophy". Transfers don't happen in a vacuum and the sport, and the circumstances for an individual club, can change extremely quickly. 

 

 

We've had a few players over the years, lallana, sturridge, moreno maybe even to a lesser extent origi, who just seemed to be completely out of the plans, but we just rode it out with them till their contract was done. There must be something behind it, but I'm fucked if I can work out how it works. 

[Jairzinho]

4 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

We've had a few players over the years, lallana, sturridge, moreno maybe even to a lesser extent origi, who just seemed to be completely out of the plans, but we just rode it out with them till their contract was done. There must be something behind it, but I'm fucked if I can work out how it works. 

I think something the club often does, mistakenly, is see the value of a player with them managed by Klopp. The best manager in the world.

 

Other clubs know that the relative value of most of our players would be lower (obviously by differing extents) with anyone else managing them.

[Barrington Womble]

7 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I think something the club often does, mistakenly, is see the value of a player with them managed by Klopp. The best manager in the world.

 

Other clubs know that the relative value of most of our players would be lower (obviously by differing extents) with anyone else managing them.

That seems to be getting through to people now. I think that's why we had that early success selling. Although the 17m we got for neco this year was decent. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

Going to send Jurgen a couple of my patented FM formations to help him out.

 

The Whicker Man

 

                                  Nunez

 

Diaz                            Jota                     Salah

 

                               Thiago       

 

                       Fabinho    Henderson

 

        Van Dijk           Matip           Konate

 

                               Alisson

 

 

The TIE Fighter in honour of TK

 

         Diaz      Nunez    Salah

 

                       Jota

 

              Thiago    Henderson

 

                    Fabinho

       
        Van Dijk   Matip   Konate

 

                   Alisson

 

Jurgen can feel free to make player changes but should be advised to adhere to whatever formation he may choose.

[Moo]

Klopp is incredibly loyal to his players and there's no way he'd publicly criticise them or flog 'em - but that hasn't stopped him bringing in additional players when needed.  Konate is a good example, if you go by numbers we shouldn't have needed another but we did because two existing players (who are still in the squad) are very injury prone. 

Looking back over the last few years it appears the squad has been trimmed and the balance between different areas of the pitch has changed, so I don't buy the no space in the squad excuse.  But I don't know how reliable Wikipedia is for these things.

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, Moo said:

Klopp is incredibly loyal to his players and there's no way he'd publicly criticise them or flog 'em - but that hasn't stopped him bringing in additional players when needed.  Konate is a good example, if you go by numbers we shouldn't have needed another but we did because two existing players (who are still in the squad) are very injury prone. 

Looking back over the last few years it appears the squad has been trimmed and the balance between different areas of the pitch has changed, so I don't buy the no space in the squad excuse.  But I don't know how reliable Wikipedia is for these things.

You'd be one of the few people who would say we didn't need a centre back when we brought in konate. 

[Moo]

5 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

You'd be one of the few people who would say we didn't need a centre back when we brought in konate. 

Would I? I'd be very surprised if I thought or said that at the time we bought Konate as by then we'd just had our disastrous season of CB injuries, hadn't we?  

Even if I did think that, Klopp obviously didn't.

[stringvest]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

I think something the club often does, mistakenly, is see the value of a player with them managed by Klopp. The best manager in the world.

 

Other clubs know that the relative value of most of our players would be lower (obviously by differing extents) with anyone else managing them.

I think the other thing Klopp takes into account is the influence players have off the pitch - how well they work with the youngsters, their presence in the dressing room and elsewhere.  Milner, Lallana and others have been praised for their contributions in this regard.  Henderson I have no doubt exerts far more of a positive influence off the pitch than he does on it.  

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Moo said:

Would I? I'd be very surprised if I thought or said that at the time we bought Konate as by then we'd just had our disastrous season of CB injuries, hadn't we?  

Even if I did think that, Klopp obviously didn't.

You've just said it now. "Konate is a good example, if you go by numbers"

 

[Moo]

21 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

You've just said it now. "Konate is a good example, if you go by numbers"

 

I think you've misunderstood or it wasn't clear, I said: "if you go by numbers we shouldn't have needed another but we did because two existing players (who are still in the squad) are very injury prone"

 

I don't go by the numbers at all because those numbers mean little when they're made up of 70% injury prone players or kids not ready yet. I was referring to how often it's mentioned on here. 

 

It didn't matter when we had the numbers at CB we still went out and bought another because the existing players couldn't be relied upon for different reasons.

 

 

 

[Barrington Womble]

9 minutes ago, Moo said:

I think you've misunderstood or it wasn't clear, I said: "if you go by numbers we shouldn't have needed another but we did because two existing players (who are still in the squad) are very injury prone"

 

I don't go by the numbers at all because those numbers mean little when they're made up of 70% injury prone players or kids not ready yet. I was referring to how often it's mentioned on here. 

 

It didn't matter when we had the numbers at CB we still went out and bought another because the existing players couldn't be relied upon for different reasons.

 

 

 

Yeah, but we only had 3 centre backs. Injury prone ones or not, you should have 4? 

 

 

[Moo]

16 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Yeah, but we only had 3 centre backs. Injury prone ones or not, you should have 4? 

 

 

Add in Phillips, Williams the numbers were there before we signed Konate.

The numbers without context are pretty meaningless though.

[Bobby Hundreds]

I want us to play a bit deeper. I dont want Trent going inside of Salah, he should overlap. I want better cover when our fullbacks go forward. I want Cadburys animals to taste like they used too. I want a midfielder who can run with the ball has a pair of bollocks and can take the game by the scruff of the neck. I want Fabinho to be rested and Henderson play the 6 for a while. More than anything I'd like our players to not shoot like they have electrodes on their ball bags that goes off when ever they look at the goal. 

 

Pre Klopp all I wanted was to challenge. He raised my ambitions I'm used to this life he needs to keep me accustomed to the life I'm used too now.

[VladimirIlyich]

2 hours ago, stringvest said:

I think the other thing Klopp takes into account is the influence players have off the pitch - how well they work with the youngsters, their presence in the dressing room and elsewhere.  Milner, Lallana and others have been praised for their contributions in this regard.  Henderson I have no doubt exerts far more of a positive influence off the pitch than he does on it.  

I was absolutely waiting for that last sentence. The start of the post was a great point,as often is, but any chance to have a passive aggressive dig at Hendo is never left untouched.

[Barrington Womble]

43 minutes ago, Moo said:

Add in Phillips, Williams the numbers were there before we signed Konate.

The numbers without context are pretty meaningless though.

Yes, but they were never part of our squad. They became part of squad because all the midfielders who played before them in defence broke down. They're wages will be on the U23 budget. Obviously we still needed a 4th choice who can compete with the other 3. 

[VladimirIlyich]

2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Yes, but they were never part of our squad. They became part of squad because all the midfielders who played before them in defence broke down. They're wages will be on the U23 budget. Obviously we still needed a 4th choice who can compete with the other 3. 

Philips did a great job as a stand in but was terrible in a real PL battle on Monday. I'd also add Virgil,and maybe the coaching staff too,for expecting us to play the same way with Philips at the back in the same way we would with Konate,Matip or Gomez. Add our painfully slow midfield starters and it was always going to be a slog.

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Philips did a great job as a stand in but was terrible in a real PL battle on Monday. I'd also add Virgil,and maybe the coaching staff too,for expecting us to play the same way with Philips at the back in the same way we would with Konate,Matip or Gomez. Add our painfully slow midfield starters and it was always going to be a slog.

In that run towards the end of the covid season, we dropped a little deeper which meant Phillips was slightly less exposed, I think alissons starting position was also a little higher, which means the pass to break through needs to be better. We clearly felt we didn't need any of that on Monday as vvd would sort it all, although of course we don't know when Gomez pulled out and if there was much time time to prepare. That goal they scored was as clear as day would happen. Phillips has no place in any team playing a high line.