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Migrants

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1 hour ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Definitely the NHS with all its faults is much better than the system they use in America. But most of the developed world has universal healthcare, and our version is generally unexceptional when measured against those. 

Also, it's being broken up and flogged off as we speak, but hardly anyone - apart from full-time campaigners - are doing anything to save it. It's the prime example of what's wrong with the way we "do politics" in this country: it's all about the leaders' public personas and never about the policies.

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On 30/11/2021 at 12:16, Jairzinho said:

Decades of being ignored by the Labour party. Towns up and down the country looking like Detroit. A complete disinterest or annoyance at the focus on social policies. The complexity of left wing positions compared to those on the right.

 

Couple all of this with the worst media in western europe and you have the perfect conditions for some right wing bullshit. Some simplistic ideas that many people were primed to believe. Many of the people who did/do so are indeed complete idiots. But it shouldn't have ever got to this point. These people should have been represented by the Labour Party, and they haven't been. Hence many people who should be voting Labour don't, and should have voted remain but didn't.

 

They rolled the dice, because they felt they had fuck all to lose. As incorrect as they were.

I'd add the electoral system to the toxic mix. With a system that didn't belong in an era of rotten borough democracy, the Tories could have retained many of the trappings of relatively sane right-wing parties like the CDU/CSU in Germany and told Ukip to do their worst. Let their lunatic fringe express said lunacy in the form of a vote for the Kippers, safe in the knowledge that it would transfer to the Tories in subsequent rounds because where else was it going to go? Thanks to first-past-the-post though the Tories were terrified of Ukip taking just enough votes off them in marginal constituencies to cost them dearly in general elections that they felt obliged to humour them with the Brexit referendum. This in turn emboldened those in abandoned Labour constituencies who, for the reasons you outline, both understandably and misguidedly took the opportunity to give the body politic a right royal kick in the balls by joining those who want to destroy any form of government-led solidarity in voting for Brexit. The worst part of it all is that there is no sating the lunatic fringe, so you now have the Tories terrified of Reform taking just enough votes off them in marginal constituencies to cost them dearly in general elections etc etc. The dragging of British politics ever rightwards seems never-ending, and speaking as a migrant myself I am waiting for the day when that movement towards the right washes over me.

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9 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

Must be the slowest dismantling known to man, I’ve been hearing it for decades.

Subsequent "reorganisations" and "modernisations" have, bit by bit, led to increased marketisation, fragmentation and privatisation of the NHS. There's another phase of this going through Parliament right now.

 

Looking at the dates on Stronts's Private Eye cutting, most of those hyperbolic headlines seem to be aimed at generating a sense of urgency to get people to vote the Tories out of power or to oppose specific Tory attacks on the NHS. Sadly, we've let the Tories do what they want with the NHS and bad experiences (like Howdy's) will become more common.

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10 hours ago, Harry's Lad said:

The NHS is in crisis at the moment through chronic lack of investment and waiting lists are at an all time high due to Covid, but in the past it saved Mrs HL's life after childbirth, saved my life on more than one occasion and saved my Mum's 2 years ago after developing bowel cancer.

 

Add to that the times it saved my daughter after severe asthma attacks, or they managed to get me walking again after MS relapses, or fixed broken bones, or ferried me to hospital in an emergency, not forgetting the care given to those dying of Covid with Dr's, nurses and paramedics putting their own health and lives at risk in the process. 

 

The NHS might not get it right every time, there have been times where I have found it wanting, but abysmal?, we'd be fucked without it, and I for one appreciate and am thankful for it and those who work within it.

Spot on

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12 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I've had good experiences, bad experiences, and everything in between. It's beyond me why people talk so highly of it, but it's one of the very few examples of British exceptionalism that it appears to be okay for lefties to shout about.

I don't think many of us 'lefties' would disagree with your comments about the NHS. Most of us understand the need for it but that must be accompanied by investment in it,which is not happening in many of the right aspects of it. 

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1 hour ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I don't think many of us 'lefties' would disagree with your comments about the NHS. Most of us understand the need for it but that must be accompanied by investment in it,which is not happening in many of the right aspects of it. 

The nhs isn’t short of cash. It’s the idiots they employ to make the key decisions. They waste shit loads of cash 

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On 04/12/2021 at 08:37, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Jairz & Deiseach posting more sense here than you'll find in hundreds of pages of the EU thread.

Hmm? Was it not you failing to defend poultry workers over there Angry?

 

 OK with you to interrupt the echo chamber with an excellent letter by Ken Loaches screenwriter Paul Laverty on the European migration crises? Or does constructive criticism of the EU by the left still get your goat? 

 

The letter below the Yanis Varoufakis tweet is well informed and full of this "sense" you mention Angry but that's just my opinion.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Hmm? Was it not you failing to defend poultry workers over there Angry?

 

 OK with you to interrupt the echo chamber with an excellent letter by Ken Loaches screenwriter Paul Laverty on the European migration crises? Or does constructive criticism of the EU by the left still get your goat? 

 

The letter below the Yanis Varoufakis tweet is well informed and full of this "sense" you mention Angry but that's just my opinion.

 

 

No.

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46 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Or does constructive criticism of the EU by the left still get your goat? 

 

The letter below the Yanis Varoufakis tweet is well informed and full of this "sense" you mention Angry but that's just my opinion.

 

 

It never has.  Like Varoufakis or Corbyn, I've been known to criticise a lot of the shit the the EU does, while recognising that Brexit just made things worse for the UK working class.

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Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No.

Apologies, you were one of the posters defending the poster who blamed poor people for low wages?

 

The Laverty letter make any 'sense' to you?

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1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It never has.  Like Varoufakis or Corbyn, I've been known to criticise a lot of the shit the the EU does, while recognising that Brexit just made things worse for the UK working class.

Good sense not just reserved for one set of opinion then? Hmm.

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3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Apologies, you were one of the posters defending the poster who blamed poor people for low wages?

 

The Laverty letter make any 'sense' to you?

Skend never blamed poor people for low wages: he blamed the capitalist system, in which if you buy something cheap, it means that someone, somewhere is being exploited.  He seems to consider it hypocritical to criticise the exploiters, while simultaneously paying them for the cheap products of exploitation.  (Personally, I'm not sure I agree; the whole situation is morally more complex than that.)  You repeatedly misinterpreted that comment as Skend supporting the exploiters; it isn't.

 

The Laverty letter makes perfect sense and I've done the half-arsed 21st Century version of activism (signing onlign petitions, tweeting politicians, etc.) against abuse of asylum seekers by both the EU and the UK.

 

All of this is deflecting from Deiseach's post and the Jairz one he quoted, both of which are absolutely spot on; but this isn't the thread to argue about all that.

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18 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Skend never blamed poor people for low wages: he blamed the capitalist system, in which if you buy something cheap, it means that someone, somewhere is being exploited.  He seems to consider it hypocritical to criticise the exploiters, while simultaneously paying them for the cheap products of exploitation.

 

Bollocks, it's not what he meant at all, his other offering was the owners could pay low wages because of the situation of factorys in a poor location.

 

Lets not forget them chicken factory's showed a profit of 60mil the year before last, the owners are billionaires. Those workers could and should receive far better pay without an increase in product price, its a fucking lame excuse.

 

 

18 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

  (Personally, I'm not sure I agree; the whole situation is morally more complex than that.)  You repeatedly misinterpreted that comment as Skend supporting the exploiters; it isn't.

 

The Laverty letter makes perfect sense and I've done the half-arsed 21st Century version of activism (signing onlign petitions, tweeting politicians, etc.) against abuse of asylum seekers by both the EU and the UK.

 

All of this is deflecting from Deiseach's post and the Jairz one he quoted, both of which are absolutely spot on; but this isn't the thread to argue about all that.

 

You said their is little sense spoken on the EU thread, I've posted the veiws of the left from people like Varoufakis as you well know, I've also posted an excellent article by Sarah O'Conner on working practices in these factorys, or didnt you find her reports didn't speak 'sense'?

 

You might not agree but it's not all about the veiws from the eyes of the right and Lavertys letter doesn't deflect from anything. Their are numerous valid criticisms of our own useless governments response to the migration issue yet very little regarding the EU, wonder why?

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On 04/12/2021 at 07:12, deiseach said:

I'd add the electoral system to the toxic mix. With a system that didn't belong in an era of rotten borough democracy, the Tories could have retained many of the trappings of relatively sane right-wing parties like the CDU/CSU in Germany and told Ukip to do their worst. Let their lunatic fringe express said lunacy in the form of a vote for the Kippers, safe in the knowledge that it would transfer to the Tories in subsequent rounds because where else was it going to go? Thanks to first-past-the-post though the Tories were terrified of Ukip taking just enough votes off them in marginal constituencies to cost them dearly in general elections that they felt obliged to humour them with the Brexit referendum. This in turn emboldened those in abandoned Labour constituencies who, for the reasons you outline, both understandably and misguidedly took the opportunity to give the body politic a right royal kick in the balls by joining those who want to destroy any form of government-led solidarity in voting for Brexit. The worst part of it all is that there is no sating the lunatic fringe, so you now have the Tories terrified of Reform taking just enough votes off them in marginal constituencies to cost them dearly in general elections etc etc. The dragging of British politics ever rightwards seems never-ending, and speaking as a migrant myself I am waiting for the day when that movement towards the right washes over me.

No disrespect to your post but if you think British politics has been dragged to the right (and I don't disagree) then god help you if you think you'll find solace further east, look a little closer at the veiw of migrants, gays, socialists at the top of the EU tree and the heads of countries like Hungary/Poland, put hairs on your chest.

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Two weeks after 27 innocent men, women and children died in the English Channel disaster, the Tories voted to legalise the drowning of asylum seekers.

 

There really isn't a Hell deep enough for these unspeakable cunts.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/migrant-boats-mps-vote-channel-b1971622.html?amp

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10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Two weeks after 27 innocent men, women and children died in the English Channel disaster, the Tories voted to legalise the drowning of asylum seekers.

 

There really isn't a Hell deep enough for these unspeakable cunts.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/migrant-boats-mps-vote-channel-b1971622.html?amp

Horrible 

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1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

Horrible 

2 Tories voted to support the "don't kill people" amendment.

 

312 sitting Tories - and one "Independent" (because he's suspended from the Tory Party because of sexual assault claims) - voted against it.

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