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West Ham 3 Liverpool 2 (Nov 7 2021)

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Also, I disagree with the "Alisson should have been stronger" argument. When our outfield players get tripped or pulled and go down in the box, we dont say "he should have been stronger there". In fact, many of us were angry that Mane was staying on his feet when fouled last season. 

 

But now people are saying Alisson should have been stronger? Fuck that. He was clearly impeded and that's a foul. Whether Ogbonna meant to do it or not is irrelevant. Lack of intent doesnt absolve the ref or VAR of their incompetence for that call.

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It does feel like we've regressed a few years and are back to everything being chaotic and the forwards having to score 3 or 4 goals to ensure we win a match. The way we've played under Klopp has always been on a basis of high reward but high risk, but at the moment we always seem to look absolutely ridiculously exposed whenever we lose possession (in which case it might be at least useful to not just keep carelessly giving it away like yesterday). Maybe it was too much to expect VVD to just seamlessly return to the player he was after such a long and serious injury, but at the moment he looks a shadow of what he was. Hopefully it's something that time will fix. 

 

I didn't really have any issues with the first goal, but I just have no idea how they can look at that Cresswell challenge on VAR and not deem it a red card. It looked like pretty much a textbook example of a dangerous and out of control tackle. 

 

This team really needs to learn how to win ugly again. Every league win we've had so far has been extremely comfortable. Every game we've dropped points in have been in the balance and in many of them we've held the lead and been unable to see it out. This felt like the sort of game our title winning team would have found a way to grind out a win in.

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6 hours ago, Erik T said:

Yes, we have failed to win 5 out of 11 league games, but in our defence 3 of them were against the teams that are currently top 3 in the table (and would have been top 4 even if we’d beaten them). Losing to a well organised West Ham side that maybe got lucky with some decisions (I don’t think they did but that’s beside the point) is not that worrying but failing to beat Brentford when we were in the lead twice and Brighton when we were 2 goals up is indeed cause for concern. We were also ahead twice against City. In The CL we’ve given away leads against both AC Milan and Atlético (2 goals) but we managed to win in the end.  Not being able to hold on to a lead and kill the game off is a major concern. We are so sloppy and casual in defending that we are close to being a soft touch. The attitude has to change - start sprinting back, put some tough tackles in, make a professional foul if need be - in short, man up FFS! And Klopp should stop complaining about the refs when the decisions are more in the «seen ‘em given» than «stonewall» category. 

Totally agree with it being a big worry that we can’t hold onto a lead. This to me is the biggest concern. It does seem like we have regressed massively and are now back to where we were in the first years of Klopp’s tenure where we relied on our attackers to win the games by out scoring other teams because we can’t hold onto a lead to save our lives. If that doesn’t change we will be back to similar results as those first years. 

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Not sure about the Allison foul I can understand it going both ways but it's funny that Craig Pawson was the ref (although it was VAR that chalked it off) when Firminho's goal was disallowed against the Mancs due to this challenge by Van Dijk on de Gea from 40 seconds

It's the fact there is no consistency we all know when the next games happen a keeper will suffer a similar challenge but will get the free-kick a bit like when Mane got sent off for the high boot against City, I've yet to see another player receive a similar punishment (apart from in Europe) and that was  over 4 years ago.

 

 

 

 

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It is great for the public at West Ham to see us. They must have been wondering what this team everyone has been going about are all about and now they've seen. We were wonderful.

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16 hours ago, Spy Bee said:

I think the foul on the keeper was by Antonio.

Yes, Alisson can’t jump properly, he’s blocked. I know we’re fannies down here, but every one on French tv ( Canal +) was amazed the goal was given. 
 

I don’t get the Alisson bashing, I mean he wasn’t great but the defending was abysmal for rye second and third goal, and he won a one to one later even though that was offside. And I can’t understand how come he got not help to deal with Antonio on corners….

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I agree Dave, i don't think that was a foul on the keeper in a million years. I don't care if 'you see them given' or 'it would be given in any other country' - they shouldn't be, as what is the attacker meant to do? Not go for the ball?

 

This game worried me, and reminded me of the Brentford game. Both centre halves were so casual and weak. We dominated possession but every time West Ham came forward they looked like scoring. Same with set pieces. The year we won the league there seemed to be a real desire and hunger to keep clean sheets and that, weirdly, seems sorely lacking at the moment. They were bullied.

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Good stuff Dave.

 

Agree with you on their first goal (nothing wrong with it) and the Cresswell challenge (clear red). 

 

Antonio's comments are pretty telling - they knew that nobody would mark whoever goes on Alisson, so they stuck on him and distracted him from the start. Staggering that they yielded two goals and a crossbar from three corners. Complete system failure from us. 

 

An evening kick off at Anfield against Arsenal is far from the worst fixture to follow the break. 

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10 hours ago, Supremolad said:

In addition to his arm being impeded by Ogbonna, Alisson also got elbowed in that incident leading to the first goal. It's a foul, simple as.

 

We've seen refs give fouls for less on goalies, even this season. Leeds goalie conceded a goal few weeks ago and barely had any contact on him. The goal was disallowed. Generally, any kind of significant contact on a goalie in the 6 yard box leads to a foul being called.

Agree with this. Having seen it again on Neil Mellor's review show, it's 100% a foul for the reason given above, quite apart from the consistency question.

And as for the Cresswell decision, that's beyond incompetence. Of course, Dopey Dermot thought it merely merited a yellow. It was fun the previous week watching him being schooled in the ways of football by Steven Warnock and the token lady ex-player over the Villa red card  - against West Ham, coincidentally. Dermot, of course, agreed with the decision that as a clear goalscoring opportuntiy it merited a red. Warnock patiently explained that, as the ball was breaking to the right of the penalty area, by the time the extremely left-footed Bowen had brought the ball under control and shifted it to his good foot, there would have been cover and therefore it wouldn't have been a clear goalscoring opportuntiy. Nailed him to the wall.

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19 hours ago, Anubis said:

I’m not sure we are the best team in the country at the moment.

 

17 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

Don’t think we’re the best team in the country mate.

 

We are the best team in the country but we haven't shown it the last couple of weeks. So if we're just talking current form, then yeah you're both right of course.

 

My point stands though. We're the best team (not necessarily best squad) and it's time we started fucking showing it more consistently.

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4 hours ago, dave u said:

 

 

We are the best team in the country but we haven't shown it the last couple of weeks. So if we're just talking current form, then yeah you're both right of course.

 

My point stands though. We're the best team (not necessarily best squad) and it's time we started fucking showing it more consistently.

 

I'm really not sure you can say we were the best team, man. Chelsea won the European Cup a few months ago and are comfortably top of the league. Us looking good in a few games now and again doesn't really give us any right to say that.

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It's the same group of players (minus Gini) that got won a CL, got 97 points and then got 99 points the following season to win the title.

 

We're the best team, but we've got to show it more consistently than we are doing.

 

If I'd said we were the best after we won 5-0 at Old Trafford (only a little over two weeks ago), who would be disagreeing with me? Not many, I'd imagine.

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12 hours ago, dave u said:

It's the same group of players (minus Gini) that got won a CL, got 97 points and then got 99 points the following season to win the title.

 

We're the best team, but we've got to show it more consistently than we are doing.

 

If I'd said we were the best after we won 5-0 at Old Trafford (only a little over two weeks ago), who would be disagreeing with me? Not many, I'd imagine.

Subliminal message there Dave...

 

0_Liverpool-v-Everton-Premier-League-Anfield.jpg

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We're not the best team. We were exceptional against the bad Mancs, but the rest of the season we've been floating somewhere been middling and gash! The midfield is pish, the defence is shaky and the forwards are wasting a lot of chances. Even our normally excellent keeper had a massive brain fart on Sunday.

 

That combination is nowhere near the best team. As for the subs, sheesh!

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That bit of Virgil defending reminded me of Ferdinand in the League Cup Final 2003 when Micheal Owen scored. I get the requirement to defend the most dangerous space but there comes a time when the guy who's about to score needs to be closed down.

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On 11/11/2021 at 00:13, dave u said:

It's the same group of players (minus Gini) that got won a CL, got 97 points and then got 99 points the following season to win the title.

Maybe that's the problem.. it's the same group of players. If you're not moving forward you're moving backwards...

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On 10/11/2021 at 22:13, dave u said:

It's the same group of players (minus Gini) that got won a CL, got 97 points and then got 99 points the following season to win the title.

 

We're the best team, but we've got to show it more consistently than we are doing.

 

If I'd said we were the best after we won 5-0 at Old Trafford (only a little over two weeks ago), who would be disagreeing with me? Not many, I'd imagine.

We are probably the best team in the league if was just about who has the best first eleven when everyone is fit and available....

 

But of course it isn't - and where we are for me not 'the best' is when you look at the depth of the squad, the suitability of the back up players to come in and do the job without too much of a drop off and (where we are really struggling) the durability and reliability of the players.

 

We have squad depth issues, a problem with the drop off in quality when fielding back up players and the suitability of back up players to make our system work and too many injury prone players/we are picking up too many injuries.

 

Our midfield this season has seen an almost constant rotation of players in and out, as a result we are struggling with cohesion and understanding in there, this is an issue IMO that is affecting our defending too and of course at times we have been forced to line up with a midfield trio that is just totally unsuited to how we want to play.....If we had better back up instead of mediocrity like Oxlade and if we had more reliable players fitness wise in there I an sure we'd be top of the league now as opposed to just off the pace.

 

It's fine margins of course, but then it often is and is often likely to be, and those fine margins for my money are where we are likely just short right now because we don't have players who offer the required back up, more suitable back up and are more durable and reliable.

 

 

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On 13/11/2021 at 13:29, piphomer said:

Maybe that's the problem.. it's the same group of players. If you're not moving forward you're moving backwards...

Think that's a very good point. We really didn't take advantage of the position of power we were in after winning the CL then the league. I know finances obviously dictate, but that's where United were so good under Ferguson. They never stood still in terms of changing and improving the squad. 

 

One of Klopp's criticisms (if it can be called that) is that he is maybe too loyal to players and I certainly think there's an element of truth in that. The fact the likes of Origi, Chamberlain, Keita etc are still here and haven't been improved upon is incredible really. But then that's what sets us apart from City, Chelsea and Man U i suppose. It's the financial situation we find ourselves in.

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Don't think the squad depth we would all like is possible for any club other than the mega rich clubs, but we won 2 major trophies. Shitteh don't seem any closer to champions league.

For me, it's the manager, he could get a tune out a knitting needle and pan.

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On 11/11/2021 at 18:45, Barnesey said:

That bit of Virgil defending reminded me of Ferdinand in the League Cup Final 2003 when Micheal Owen scored. I get the requirement to defend the most dangerous space but there comes a time when the guy who's about to score needs to be closed down.

In his review show, Neil Mellor showed how Antonio, who was in an offside position when the ball was played through to Fornals, then clearly blocked Virgil's attempt to move across to the player with the ball.. 

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3 hours ago, Barnesey said:

Different incident I think. Look at the video Dave embedded

You're quite right, had my wires crossed. It does seem to me that Virgil is still playing within himself - I don't think I've seen him do a flat-out sprint yet. Understandable given the nature of his injury.

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