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West Ham (A) - Sun 7th Nov 2021 (4:30pm)

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2 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

Unusually poor that from Ali - totally different game if that does not happen.

This.  The fans smelt blood in the 4th fucking minute. The ref had a narrative to help him keep the cheers in the air. Moyes' set- piece gameplan was validated and now had complete buy-in with the players.  

 

Perhaps the biggest crime was committed by Matip and Virgil after just 2mins 34 seconds where Matip had pushed 5 yards into the West Ham half while Virgil was left to watch Antonio on his own, and rather than go across shoulder-to-shoulder with him he let him advance and then gave away the corner.  

During the same move, had Fornals chosen not to use the 'Trent Highway' outball, he might have seen Bowen and Benrahma jog in-behind Fabinho as well, which was criminal from the midfield.  

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I never bought into the excuse that losing our centre halves caused us to have that terrible run of results at Anfield from the West Brom game last season. 

 

We were clueless in knowing what to do against teams keeping  everyone behind the ball and picking us off in the last 10 minutes. Everyone seen it and used it against us. 
 

We got away with it against Chelsea this season and reverted back to it today.

 

He’s got to work this out as teams will see this and set up the same again. Everyone in this league would be made up with a point against us. Let’s not make it easy for them. 

 

 

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I know it’s probably throwback, low percentage stuff, but we could do worse in games like today than trying the odd shot from distance. 

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Just now, El Rojo said:

I know it’s probably throwback, low percentage stuff, but we could do worse in games like today than trying the odd shot from distance. 

Bullseye. We had a midfielder who likes to run behind defences yet had him playing everything in front of them and then taking him off for the midfielder who could have fed him the through balls to run onto. 
 

 

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38 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Yea man I don't. 

Stating that the biggest economic downturn in history is the easiset time to borrow money is not that deep tbh.

Unfortunately the two examples you gave are exemplary of what you wouldn't do if you were investing.

 

Do you have a better example?

Let me try and make this easier for you to understand. Competing clubs who were positioned to attract financing took on significant financing at very low rates to address critical business needs -- 0.5% is low, I'm sure you can do the math, it is very low. The repayment on this loan is low, you may not be able to do the maths, but it is very low. How they spent the funds is inconsequential - the decision was taken by ownership to invest in the business to try and better the business. Had they spent well, our position would be precarious indeed.

 

LFC have been under-invested in; we have a net transfer spend of £140 million in 5 years, that is low, it is very low. As a result of this under-investment we also have critical business needs to address. We have one legitimate centre forward at the club, who is 30 and scored less than 10 league goals in his previous two seasons. We have a mid-table quality youth player drafted into the midfield with regularity such is the dearth of options there. We have the greatest player in the world about to enter the final year of his contract with his future unclear. There are numerous critical needs to address. Had the club chosen to finance to address these needs, financing was available at unprecedented levels - this is clear. The club chose not to spend and instead to embrace risk that others would not catch up to us and displace us from the Champions League places (which is FSG's raison d'etre) - this is clear. The club chose to try and patch us up with minimal investment - this is, and always has been, FSG's prerogative. To assume this was the only way forward, however, is a fallacy; there were other numerous paths to take, as demonstrated by our competition, and so if we squander the several generational-talents we do still have in the manager & the squad with another trophy-less season the club will be the only ones to blame. If our competition get their acts together and move forward while we stand still, and if as a result the club loses more than it would have stood to gain had it invested, then we will have been foolhardy indeed.

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I think you are trying to make three disparate points.

 

Debt is debt - so it is very consequential on what it is used for if you are trying to call it investment. Assuming debt to keep the doors open is not investment. That is called losing money. There were two examples mentioned, neither of which imo were good decisions and will, by definition, hamper those clubs financially moving forward. In the one case of investing in the squad there was no extraordinary value had.

 

The second point is 140 mil over 5 years on transfers is under investment. Maybe a stronger case there but it is opinion. It is tough to argue with what they have done on and off the field in the last 5 years - but you can. I think at the beginning that was what was expected - 25-40 mil a year plus outgoings. So, it is what it is - could easily be said that given the collapse of anything resembling FFP it is not enough to compete for the league year in and year out.

 

The third is there are numerous needs that all are taken care of simultaneously each and every year.

You don't take loans out every year - regardless of rate. So last summer would have been a one off, and be sure it would have been serviced out of revenue. Not swallowed or put into another spreadsheet and your argument is it was needed for transfers.

Could they have done it as you point out - sure - but as we have seen almost no one else did. Probably for good reason.

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7 minutes ago, Mathewbet1 said:

We’ve Just been on the longest unbeaten run in the clubs history 

Klopp out and he can take his players with him. 

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A weird one. Two terrible mistakes from the keeper, their first goal shouldn’t have stood, and we should have been playing 10 men for 85 minutes. Add in the fact that Mané should have equalised at the end and you can make the case for us being unlucky.  But leaving all that aside, I wasn’t really surprised by the result or the performance. West Ham were very good and we were nowhere near our best. Quite a few players are in the red zone in terms of needing a break, and it showed. They looked stronger and faster all the time. Hardly any of our players played to anything like their potential. Trent has 2 moments of brilliance - the goal and the cross for Mané at the end, but otherwise was outfought and outrun and didn’t link with Mo at all. Robbo had probably his worst game for us, but his crossing has been mediocre for ages (even then he put one on a plate for Mané at 1-1). Henderson went missing for large chunks of the game (although he played a lovely ball for Trent before Origi’s goal) and didn’t link up with Trent and Mo at all. Matip gave the ball away more than I’ve seen before, and Virgil looked incapable of keeping up with Antonio at times. Mané was hectic but ineffective and his awful control led to the second goal. Jota had one of those games where he looks useless in the middle. Fabinho was ok, but was exposed at times. Ox did a few positive things and gave us something different, but lost the ball a lot and contributed next to nothing defensively, and Mo just never had any space to operate in. This felt like 17/18 in some ways, when Virgil first arrived and we were beating City one week and losing to Swansea the next. The defensive solidity we had in the next two seasons has totally evaporated and I don’t know why. Personally, I don’t think it’s down to Gini’s absence (granted, that doesn’t help) but teams that win leagues get something from games like this. They also don’t concede 3 goals to pace-and-power merchants like West Ham and Brentford. What the fuck was going on for the third goal? A big centre half gets a clear run at the back post and nobody tracks him or gets anywhere near him.

 

I hope I’m wrong but there are some 1990/91 vibes about this team - all getting a big older at the same time. I wonder if the lack of clarity about Klopp’s future in 2 years explains a reluctance to overhaul the squad? It certainly may go some way to explaining Mo’s reluctance to commit. 
 

Beating United and Atletico and taking one point off Brighton and West Ham is the most Liverpool  1990 - 2018 thing imaginable. 
 

Not angry or despondent, but disappointed and concerned.

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Firstly fair play to West Ham. They are a very decent team and deserved the three points. I would be quietly hopeful they could take points of City and Chelsea.

 

There will rightly be a lot of eyes on FSG in the summer. To say today is on them though is wrong imo. Today is on multiple world class players being piss poor. Ali was shite but he's been really good this season. Robbo and Trent have been diabolical all season pretty much. With Trent more the defensive side to be fair. Matip and Virgil poor today though with the lack of protection from midfield and the full backs hard to be critical. 

 

We can still win the league. We just need to stop dropping silly points because we are wildly inconsistent. Brentford and Brighton were inexcusable, even more than today. Chelsea aren't the finished article and City aren't what they were. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mathewbet1 said:

We’ve Just been on the longest unbeaten run in the clubs history 

Escapes a few people that, doesnt it? I also just read we've played 7 games in the last 23 days. And now the players are off for internationals. Crazy.

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WH were incredibly narrow, basically nothing was getting through the middle for the forwards.  So Plan B, go wide and cross...but the deliveries were shit, and WH had bodies in the box anyway, with Jota occasionally getting the too of his head on a couple.  I reckon Origi could have converted one of them. 

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I think, when you consider that was our first loss since the Spring, Jurgen's response was disproportionately prickly in the post-match.  

 

And I wonder whether it was the ref or West Ham sitting deep or whatever that was really annoying him.

 

Or more, was it that he knows he's got a wafer-thin squad, which might (perhaps/maybe) be on the verge of another struggle similar to last season.

 

I would have thought he'd be more philosophical after a solitary loss.

 

The bigger picture might have been the thing getting more on his nerves after the game.  Maybe.

 

10 game unbeaten start to the season, lose one, and drop to fourth.  The margins for error are wafer-thin.  

Hopefully Chelsea and City can keep wobbling against the likes of Burnley and Palace - we're going to need it.

 

After kidding myself a little early on - and watching Salah's early form - I'm now not so sure 4-3s and 3-2s are going to be sustainable.

 

The number of goals we're conceding is getting a bit serious.

 

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22 minutes ago, s(k)aturation said:

 

I think, when you consider that was our first loss since the Spring, Jurgen's response was disproportionately prickly in the post-match.  

 

And I wonder whether it was the ref or West Ham sitting deep or whatever that was really annoying him.

 

Or more, was it that he knows he's got a wafer-thin squad, which might (perhaps/maybe) be on the verge of another struggle similar to last season.

 

I would have thought he'd be more philosophical after a solitary loss.

 

The bigger picture might have been the thing getting more on his nerves after the game.  Maybe.

 

10 game unbeaten start to the season, lose one, and drop to fourth.  The margins for error are wafer-thin.  

Hopefully Chelsea and City can keep wobbling against the likes of Burnley and Palace - we're going to need it.

 

After kidding myself a little early on - and watching Salah's early form - I'm now not so sure 4-3s and 3-2s are going to be sustainable.

 

The number of goals we're conceding is getting a bit serious.

 

He knows you can't have too many of these types of results with how strong City and Chelsea are. That's 5 non-wins in 11 games. Almost half. And it's not just the results, to be honest, there's a whole part of football we're bad at right now. 

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We've got Alisson, VVD  Matip, Trent, Robbo and Fabinho infront of them yet we are getting opened up easily by the likes of Brentford, Brighton and westham. We're playing into these sides hands. This is a top 4 challenge not a title challenge we are way to flimsy or niave.

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3 hours ago, s(k)aturation said:

 

I think, when you consider that was our first loss since the Spring, Jurgen's response was disproportionately prickly in the post-match.  

 

And I wonder whether it was the ref or West Ham sitting deep or whatever that was really annoying him.

 

Or more, was it that he knows he's got a wafer-thin squad, which might (perhaps/maybe) be on the verge of another struggle similar to last season.

 

I would have thought he'd be more philosophical after a solitary loss.

 

The bigger picture might have been the thing getting more on his nerves after the game.  Maybe.

 

10 game unbeaten start to the season, lose one, and drop to fourth.  The margins for error are wafer-thin.  

Hopefully Chelsea and City can keep wobbling against the likes of Burnley and Palace - we're going to need it.

 

After kidding myself a little early on - and watching Salah's early form - I'm now not so sure 4-3s and 3-2s are going to be sustainable.

 

The number of goals we're conceding is getting a bit serious.

 

The number of goals conceded is indeed a concern. VVD and Matip looked like they were running through treacle half the time and Alisson had a stinker. First goal was his fuck up for me and not a foul. While its only our first loss the squad is already creaking and with yet more useless internationals we are inevitably going to get an injury or three. 

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There's an awful lot of hysteria from our fans after this game. 

 

Yeah we lost, yeah we weren't at our best. 

 

But ffs lads, that's our first loss this season, we played crap, yet only for dodgy decisions and mane missing a sitter at the end we could have drawn the game. 

 

The result will give our players the required kick up the arse they probably need anyway. 

 

I'll start worrying if we go on a crap run now. 

 

But I'm guessing we'll come back from international duty and go on another run up until Christmas. 

 

Chin up, you bunch of fannies

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Thank goodness for the international break and the hiatus away from all this shit. It may also give Klopp time to reflect on the state of his squad, the loss of form of key players and the need for rotation. I would certainly like to see more of Origi and Tsimikas in place of Jota Robo respectively. Fatigue has taken a toll on Robo hence some resting. As for Jota, he is the kind of player who can make a difference from the bench rather a starter. 

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4 hours ago, s(k)aturation said:

 

I think, when you consider that was our first loss since the Spring, Jurgen's response was disproportionately prickly in the post-match.  

 

And I wonder whether it was the ref or West Ham sitting deep or whatever that was really annoying him.

 

Or more, was it that he knows he's got a wafer-thin squad, which might (perhaps/maybe) be on the verge of another struggle similar to last season.

 

I would have thought he'd be more philosophical after a solitary loss.

 

The bigger picture might have been the thing getting more on his nerves after the game.  Maybe.

 

10 game unbeaten start to the season, lose one, and drop to fourth.  The margins for error are wafer-thin.  

Hopefully Chelsea and City can keep wobbling against the likes of Burnley and Palace - we're going to need it.

 

After kidding myself a little early on - and watching Salah's early form - I'm now not so sure 4-3s and 3-2s are going to be sustainable.

 

The number of goals we're conceding is getting a bit serious.

 


Ive said so many times in the past, that I’d rather we lost 2 games than draw 4-5 and remain undefeated.

 

Four draws since the season’s start and 3 of them at Anfield. That’s twice as many as every other team in the top six. Draws cost us the title 3 seasons ago when City just edged us. The European Cup triumph although obviously very welcome, also contained evidence that we were not defending well. We conceded many late goals to get to Madrid and we were all on tinder-hooks with anxiety - I certainly was - because we were switching off late on in big games.

 

I could have taken todays loss on the chin if we’d beaten Brighton and either Chelsea or City at Anfield. We would be sitting in equal 1st place right now with Chelsea. 2 draws one loss. Today has knocked me, and probably knocked the team. The break wont exactly bring a rest for them either. It might exacerbate the injury list.

 

 

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4 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

He knows you can't have too many of these types of results with how strong City and Chelsea are. That's 5 non-wins in 11 games. Almost half. And it's not just the results, to be honest, there's a whole part of football we're bad at right now. 

But, but, but, we were unbeaten.

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I think yesterday’s defeat hasn’t really surprised anyone on here.

It was like when we were top of the league last season around Christmas/New Year time, many sensed then we weren’t playing well, despite the fact we were still top. We just knew things weren’t right and that there were issues that needed addressing that should have been addressed during the summer, and that then didn’t get sorted during the January transfer window either.

Hence we struggled and had to rely on a really late surge, and a goal from Alisson, to get us into the CL places.

That sense of deja vu has been around for a little while, remembering we hammered Palace 7-0 before starting a weak run, then seeing us hammer United 5-0 and drop points against Brighton and now West Ham, it might be playing on Klopp’s mind too, which could explain his “prickly” reaction after the game yesterday.

Whether we have the manager and players to reinforce, change or tweak tactics should be something we see after the break. I hope we do see that change as we’re conceding too many soft goals currently.

But all the tactics in the world won’t counter individual and collective mistakes such as some of those seen recently, and those mistakes might be because the players involved are not getting enough rest, or simply that they are getting older, and aren’t capable of regaining that 5% drop in performance that will happen. If that’s only happening to one or two then it’s not critical, but any more than that and it could be.

 

 

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