PODCAST: Man United 0 Liverpool 5 - Match Reaction

[dave u]

1 hour ago, Vincent Vega said:

How many times did Brownie bring up the challenge on Keita that resulted in Pogba getting sent off? He must have went back to it about four times, even Paul called him out and he was equally three sheets to the wind.

 

At least a couple more that I edited out too.

[Arnaud]

As there is not any more direct flights from Paris to Liverpool, I’ll be flying through Manchester this Friday. 
 

I expect long queue at the airport because of Brexit. I was thinking maybe I could listen to the podcast out loud because I have lost my ear phone. 

[The Midnight Rambler]

Nobody think that Fernandes challenge could’ve been a red too? 
 

I’ll be listening to this on blue Monday, whenever that is. Loved it.

[KMD7]

I love the bit where ( i think it was Brownie) was asking Dave to acknowledge his silky skills and Dave told him to fuck off.  Laughed myself silly at that. 

[KMD7]

37 minutes ago, The Midnight Rambler said:

Nobody think that Fernandes challenge could’ve been a red too? 
 

I’ll be listening to this on blue Monday, whenever that is. Loved it.

Yeah defo a red 

[Kevin D]

4 hours ago, dave u said:

 

Ronaldo, Fernandes, Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Martial, Pogba.

 

In terms of 'talent' and ability to score goals out of nothing that's as good as anything out there. I agree there are major flaws there too (a lot of it because they're badly coached) but they'll always be dangerous opposition when they have that much ability at the top end of the field.

 

Even against us, Fernandes missed a great chance and Alisson had to make good saves from Greenwood and Ronaldo. They're a shite team but they still pose danger because they have.....I'll say it again... TALENT!

 

That's the reason they were 4th until a week ago (and will probably still sneak 4th this season unless Leicester or West Ham can stay the course for once) and not near the bottom which is where they would be if they didn't have that capacity to score goals to give them undeserved wins. They also have six points in the CL they wouldn't have if they didn't have the firepower they have.

 

They have no identity, they are awfully coached, the attitude of a lot of them is questionable too. They regularly get outplayed by sides with lesser players but you can't say they aren't talented in attack as that's just crazy talk.

 

Greenwood, Sancho and even Rashford would all look quality if they were playing for Klopp. At the moment they play like talented individuals and not as a team. That talent is actually the only thing going for them, and you're trying to take it away from them!

 

Manc bastard.

[grazywalker]

It was like walking into the pub to meet the lads only to find out very quickly they had been on it all day. 

[lebron]

5 hours ago, dave u said:

 

Ronaldo, Fernandes, Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Martial, Pogba.

 

In terms of 'talent' and ability to score goals out of nothing that's as good as anything out there. I agree there are major flaws there too (a lot of it because they're badly coached) but they'll always be dangerous opposition when they have that much ability at the top end of the field.

 

Even against us, Fernandes missed a great chance and Alisson had to make good saves from Greenwood and Ronaldo. They're a shite team but they still pose danger because they have.....I'll say it again... TALENT!

 

That's the reason they were 4th until a week ago (and will probably still sneak 4th this season unless Leicester or West Ham can stay the course for once) and not near the bottom which is where they would be if they didn't have that capacity to score goals to give them undeserved wins. They also have six points in the CL they wouldn't have if they didn't have the firepower they have.

 

They have no identity, they are awfully coached, the attitude of a lot of them is questionable too. They regularly get outplayed by sides with lesser players but you can't say they aren't talented in attack as that's just crazy talk.

 

Greenwood, Sancho and even Rashford would all look quality if they were playing for Klopp. At the moment they play like talented individuals and not as a team. That talent is actually the only thing going for them, and you're trying to take it away from them!

 

Hmmmm... Maybe I did't put my point across well enough,as a couple of the things you are saying is what I think too. I just disagree with your definition of "attacking talent", and to what extent that is applicable into a team structure I suppose. I too recognise that they are able to deliver killer passes (Pogba, Fernandes) and thumping finishes (Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo). Most of the forwards are also able to complete take-ons and run really fast on the counter. When it comes to the execution of team play I haven't really seen any of them do it consistently, whether it's under this manager or Mourinho (or Southgate). There's a chance Klopp could transform them, of course, but I doubt he'd want to try... They are all mavericks and seem to be stubborn and tough to coach as well. I said earlier that Greenwood is probably their best option if they want to build team play from scratch, but if you ask Utd supporters they will tell you that he's incredibly selfish and seldom chooses the right option.

 

I don't disagree that they've been badly coached, as I've said from the start of his reign, Solskjær is way out of his depth! His achievements at Molde has since been repeated and outdone, they could basically pick and choose who they wanted to sign here for a while (and had the highest turnover of players in history here in Norway under his reign). 

 

Don't really know if I'm getting my point across well enough... I think I'll leave it at this: While the defence and midfield are even bigger concerns, I also believe their front men aren't as good tactically/technically as their reputations suggest. Any manager going there will have trouble getting them to execute team play consistently. 

 

Edit: Maybe I'm just a bit euphoric over their recent struggles, but I really believe they are going to be struggling for a long time yet, and it's truly wonderful to watch!

 

 

[m0e]

@Brownie absolutely fucking smashed it.

 

Needs 17 pints before any appearance in future.

 

Forget watching the game again. Listen to this again and again and again, and you'll get something new from him every time!

[Paul]

10 hours ago, m0e said:

@Brownie absolutely fucking smashed it.

 

Needs 17 pints before any appearance in future.

 

Forget watching the game again. Listen to this again and again and again, and you'll get something new from him every time!

Except about whether it was a red card for Ronaldo on Curt…

[aws]

Brownie's overall judgement might have been impaired but he was right about Ronaldo. Excessive force when not challenging for the ball. 

[dave u]

19 hours ago, lebron said:

 

Hmmmm... Maybe I did't put my point across well enough,as a couple of the things you are saying is what I think too. I just disagree with your definition of "attacking talent", and to what extent that is applicable into a team structure I suppose. I too recognise that they are able to deliver killer passes (Pogba, Fernandes) and thumping finishes (Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo). Most of the forwards are also able to complete take-ons and run really fast on the counter. When it comes to the execution of team play I haven't really seen any of them do it consistently, whether it's under this manager or Mourinho (or Southgate). There's a chance Klopp could transform them, of course, but I doubt he'd want to try... They are all mavericks and seem to be stubborn and tough to coach as well. I said earlier that Greenwood is probably their best option if they want to build team play from scratch, but if you ask Utd supporters they will tell you that he's incredibly selfish and seldom chooses the right option.

 

I don't disagree that they've been badly coached, as I've said from the start of his reign, Solskjær is way out of his depth! His achievements at Molde has since been repeated and outdone, they could basically pick and choose who they wanted to sign here for a while (and had the highest turnover of players in history here in Norway under his reign). 

 

Don't really know if I'm getting my point across well enough... I think I'll leave it at this: While the defence and midfield are even bigger concerns, I also believe their front men aren't as good tactically/technically as their reputations suggest. Any manager going there will have trouble getting them to execute team play consistently. 

 

Edit: Maybe I'm just a bit euphoric over their recent struggles, but I really believe they are going to be struggling for a long time yet, and it's truly wonderful to watch!

 

I pretty much agree with all of that mate, I think our wires are crossed over the definition of 'talent' and how we see it.

 

You seem to define that as the total package (tactics, work rate, pressing etc) whereas I'm just talking about ability and being able to create and score.

 

Cavani is the only one who has a bit of everything and he's had his nose pushed out now by Ronaldo, whose work rate makes me look like Dirk Kuyt. 

 

I said on the first pod of the season that Ronaldo will score plenty of goals but he won't make them any better. He's actually helping to make them worse.

[dave u]

"imagine there's no ball there"

 

"but there is a ball"

 

"but if there isnt then he kicks Curtis"

 

"but there is a ball and he kicked it"

 

That was hard work trying to reason with him.

[deiseach]

1 hour ago, dave u said:

"imagine there's no ball there"

 

"but there is a ball"

 

"but if there isnt then he kicks Curtis"

 

"but there is a ball and he kicked it"

 

That was hard work trying to reason with him.

He was right though! Ronaldo wasn't kicking the ball, he was kicking the ball into Curtis. Let's put it this way: Dermot Gallagher agrees with you.

Quote

DERMOT'S VERDICT: "Ronaldo was lucky the ball was there, that is what saved him from being shown a red card. What also helped was that he stopped when he did. It wasn't the wisest thing to do, there is force behind the kicks, but the fact that the ball was there has done him a great favour.

 

"When you look at it in the end, the yellow card was the right decision. It's difficult to say if things would have been different had Jones rolled about on the floor but he didn't, he was very good and very professional."

[sir roger]

You know you are on shaky ground when you are basing your corrrectness on being backed up by the simpering arsehole that is Dermot '  Diddlydee ' Gallagher.

[dave u]

A stopped clock is right twice a day. That's one more than Dermot, but he was right on this one occasion. Had to happen eventually.

[Stu Monty]

Nothing will ever be funnier than Brownie's genuine deflation at being called a combative midfielder and trying to convince us he was "Silky".

Dave was essentially right on pretty much everything and he should get a medal for having to try to herd these two drunk cats.

[Dan Vito Corleone]

48 minutes ago, Stu Monty said:

Nothing will ever be funnier than Brownie's genuine deflation at being called a combative midfielder and trying to convince us he was "Silky".

Dave was essentially right on pretty much everything and he should get a medal for having to try to herd these two drunk cats.

Do I not get a medal for having the patience of a Saint?

[Chris]

52 minutes ago, Agt Provocateur said:

Do I not get a medal for having the patience of a Saint?

I was actually thinking statue, Dan. 

[dylstar]

That podcast reminded me of this clip on the beeb the other week !!

 

[johnsusername]

There's no contest between Salah and Suarez as far as I see it. It's Mo, hands down. He's been top scorer for multiple seasons, he's helped us win the league and European Cup, and he didn't try to force a move to Arsenal. And he didn't bite anyone. 

 

Are people judging Suarez on what he did after he left Liverpool? 

[lebron]

On 27/10/2021 at 15:19, dave u said:

 

I pretty much agree with all of that mate, I think our wires are crossed over the definition of 'talent' and how we see it.

 

You seem to define that as the total package (tactics, work rate, pressing etc) whereas I'm just talking about ability and being able to create and score.

 

Cavani is the only one who has a bit of everything and he's had his nose pushed out now by Ronaldo, whose work rate makes me look like Dirk Kuyt. 

 

I said on the first pod of the season that Ronaldo will score plenty of goals but he won't make them any better. He's actually helping to make them worse.

 

Yeah, pretty much this, appreciate the input/discussion.

 

I'm possibly too hung up on this, as the qualities you see in these United players coincide with one of my main gripes in my own footballing work. When working with other coaches trying to evaluate and select players from younger age groups and how to make them develop into elite players is that far too many coaches/people are focused on players with pure physical, dribbling and shooting skills. Then the same coaches are mystified when they can't get said players to fit into a team concept. These players have been dribbling/running past their opponents most of their young lives, surviving on superior physicality (often because of age/early development), not needing to develop the tactical side of their game. There are hundreds of these players playing in bigger leagues, often playing in the wide forward/winger positions, so I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to scout for these attributes. However, after the initial excitement of seeing them get their chance in the first team and marvelling at their skill/ability/pace etc, not many make a lasting impact. Think Jordon Ibe, Hudson-Odoi, Kingsley Coman and compare them to say Franck Ribery (a hugely underrated player outside Bayern/Germany/France).

 

I genuinely think Marcus Rashford (and possibly even Sancho) is of a similar ilk to Ibe and Odoi, even if he's achieved slightly more, and due to his status more might still come. As is Martial (he's slightly better than Rashford at operating in tight spaces). As you say, Cavani is the most complete footballer of their forward lot, and he's not exactly your typical between the lines player either, and earlier in his career he was pretty reliant on his pace. He's more well-rounded now, and for his team's sake should definitely be starting ahead of Ronaldo.

 

As an aside, Firmino is pretty much the opposite, no outstanding physical qualities (although deceptively quick), not often dribbling past people, but with a much superior football brain to the players mentioned. You and Chris have given him his dues in the latest podcast, but for me he was MOTM on Saturday, which is a pretty tough task given the level Salah operates on these days. His vision, press, ability in tight spaces, short passing, flicks etc. was truly marvellous. The reason he didn't catch the eye on first viewing to the extent Salah was is the same as why this Utd bunch are seen as talented. Most people are much too concerned with the one-on-one duels that they can measure the outcome of. Football is a team sport, and for a team to be great, you've got to have great team players. Not many of those in that Utd side......which is why they'll continue to struggle...

 

Edit: Football is about scoring more than you let in, so don't get me wrong: if you can put the ball in the net regularly it's definitely a quality you need from your players. If you're going to win trophies though, you need more than a clinical finisher. Another example could be; as great as Steven Gerrard was for us, and how many important goals he scored, it was only when Alonso came in and made everyone around him better that we went on to be a force to be reckoned with both domestically and in Europe.