How good are we?

[dockers_strike]

I really dont think our squad is too thin. Yeah city and chelsea have spent fortunes on individual players and their squads. You may as well say their bank account is financed by oil and gas. The question has to be, how many and which squad players at city and chelsea would you take to replace our squad players? Im not talking their regular first teamers, Im talking their accepted back ups like Phillips, Origi, Ox, Curtis 'squad players.'

 

Im not up to date with the squads of united, spurs, arsenal or, even the likes of villa, norwich and brighton, all of who Im regularly told have 'outspent us' again.

 

van der beek, when did he last get a game, Sancho, over 300k a week they're playing him. How's he getting on.

[stringvest]

I think our 77-82 team was the best ever.  I've never seen a team dominate and frighten the shit out of opponents the way they did.  We were never beaten by a better side, we were beaten because we were complacent or we just weren't on it.

The late 80's team was fantastically entertaining to watch, but we weren't quite the machine we were from the late 70s. 

Having said all that, I am enjoying the current team immensely.

 

[TheHowieLama]

6 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

 Im not talking their regular first teamers, Im talking their accepted back ups like Phillips, Origi, Ox, Curtis 'squad players.'

 

Im not up to date with the squads of united,

Depends who you think that 11 are - certainly one of the likes of Foden/Silva/Gundogan or Mahrez/Torres/Jesus are a cut above what we have depthwise.

Any of the 5 forwards United have would be an improvement as well.

[VladimirIlyich]

55 minutes ago, Arnaud said:

What about the opposition ? Unfortunately that team did not play against the Great Milan.  Domestically, were  Everton, Forest or Arsenal as good as City or Chelsea ? It’s a genuine question.  

I'd say that the opposition teams were much better across the board back then and not so to heavy. In the 1980s we'd had Forest,end of 70s,Ipswich,Villa,Tottenham all winning European trophies,Villa and Forest winning the European Cup. Some reaching finals and losing,Arsenal and West Ham,I think? There were fewer lame ducks back then too.

PS I obviously forgot our Blue neighbours zenith in beating Rapid Vienna in 85 too.

[aws]

11 minutes ago, stringvest said:

I think our 77-82 team was the best ever.  I've never seen a team dominate and frighten the shit out of opponents the way they did.  We were never beaten by a better side, we were beaten because we were complacent or we just weren't on it.

The late 80's team was fantastically entertaining to watch, but we weren't quite the machine we were from the late 70s. 

Having said all that, I am enjoying the current team immensely.

 

Agree with this. The 77 -82 side was the best in the world by a margin. I'd put this team second only to them but they could challenge for that best ever spot if they win the CL or Prem a couple more times. Best ever sides win things consistently. 

[dockers_strike]

18 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Depends who you think that 11 are - certainly one of the likes of Foden/Silva/Gundogan or Mahrez/Torres/Jesus are a cut above what we have depthwise.

Any of the 5 forwards United have would be an improvement as well.

But that's my point. I mentioned squaddies not selective forward lines. united arent playing all 5 forwards at once so 2 of those 5 have to be squad players Im talking about.

 

Then you compare that to us and say who are our first choice front 3? Mo, Sadio and one of Jota \ Bobby so then one of Jota and Bobby  become our squad player along with Origi and Taki. Cavani is better than Origi or Taki but is he better than Jota? Martial? Id say no. When Rashford's back, who do you think the gimp will drop to accommodate him?

 

Yes, I agree about city. They paid £50m for Marhez. Torres, dont know, jesus they got for £20m+ I think. Similar for the rest, financed by unlimited oil. And it still doesnt mean our squad is too thin.

[VladimirIlyich]

11 minutes ago, aws said:

Agree with this. The 77 -82 side was the best in the world by a margin. I'd put this team second only to them but they could challenge for that best ever spot if they win the CL or Prem a couple more times. Best ever sides win things consistently. 

Its very difficult to gauge today's team given how our main rivals are so much richer than us,yet around a dozen teams are here to make up the numbers only. Back in 77-92 everybody was theoretically trying to win and beat everybody else. That's probably what makes our 77 or 80s teams the best.

[Bjornebye]

34 minutes ago, stringvest said:

I think our 77-82 team was the best ever.  I've never seen a team dominate and frighten the shit out of opponents the way they did.  We were never beaten by a better side, we were beaten because we were complacent or we just weren't on it.

The late 80's team was fantastically entertaining to watch, but we weren't quite the machine we were from the late 70s. 

Having said all that, I am enjoying the current team immensely.

 

How do the back to back title winning 1921/22, 22/23 side compare mate? 

[TheHowieLama]

25 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Jota and Bobby  become our squad player along with Origi and Taki. Cavani is better than Origi or Taki but is he better than Jota? Martial? Id say no. When Rashford's back, who do you think the gimp will drop to accommodate him?

 

They have been playing with Pogba there more often than not. In any case I would have Greenwood or Sancho.

[Arnaud]

35 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I'd say that the opposition teams were much better across the board back then and not so to heavy. In the 1980s we'd had Forest,end of 70s,Ipswich,Villa,Tottenham all winning European trophies,Villa and Forest winning the European Cup. Some reaching finals and losing,Arsenal and West Ham,I think? There were fewer lame ducks back then too.

PS I obviously forgot our Blue neighbours zenith in beating Rapid Vienna in 85 too.

That’s a good point indeed. I’m also not old enough to have seen the 70’ team but anyway I’ve always though it’s a bit pointless to compare what’s not comparable ( it’s not a dig at you, Lebron mate). I just enjoy what they deliver week after week. 
 

As far as I’m concerned, I’m so grateful to Jurgen, Hendo, alll the lads for the title they at last brought  back home. I think I cried when Mo scored that goal vs United in January 2020. And I’m tuning 50 within a year …

[RobbieOR]

1 hour ago, stringvest said:

I think our 77-82 team was the best ever.  I've never seen a team dominate and frighten the shit out of opponents the way they did.  We were never beaten by a better side, we were beaten because we were complacent or we just weren't on it.

The late 80's team was fantastically entertaining to watch, but we weren't quite the machine we were from the late 70s. 

Having said all that, I am enjoying the current team immensely.

 

 

What about Dave Ashworth's back to back league winners in the 20's which you would have seen?

[Bjornebye]

39 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

How do the back to back title winning 1921/22, 22/23 side compare mate? 

 

2 minutes ago, RobbieOR said:

 

What about Dave Ashworth's back to back league winners in the 20's which you would have seen?

 

 

[dave u]

I voted 'yes by a tiny margin' because I didn't want to go as strong as to say 'by far'.

 

Disregarding last season, what if I'm judging this team on the previous two years plus what I expectr from us this year, then it's the best I've seen by a fairly comfortable margin.

[KMD7]

3 hours ago, stringvest said:

I think our 77-82 team was the best ever.  I've never seen a team dominate and frighten the shit out of opponents the way they did.  We were never beaten by a better side, we were beaten because we were complacent or we just weren't on it.

The late 80's team was fantastically entertaining to watch, but we weren't quite the machine we were from the late 70s. 

Having said all that, I am enjoying the current team immensely.

 

Agree with all of this. 

[Razoray]

3 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I'd say that the opposition teams were much better across the board back then and not so to heavy. In the 1980s we'd had Forest,end of 70s,Ipswich,Villa,Tottenham all winning European trophies,Villa and Forest winning the European Cup. Some reaching finals and losing,Arsenal and West Ham,I think? There were fewer lame ducks back then too.

PS I obviously forgot our Blue neighbours zenith in beating Rapid Vienna in 85 too.

In the past 5 years, Arsenal, Chelsea (twice), us (twice), City, United (twice) and Spurs have reached European Cup finals with 2 CL wins and 2 EL wins. The 4 English teams are in the 6 favourites to win the champions league. The 76 to 85 period was a glorious era for English teams but the times we are in currently are just as good. It's no joke to be winning the league at the moment. 

 

 

[VladimirIlyich]

12 minutes ago, Razoray said:

In the past 5 years, Arsenal, Chelsea (twice), us (twice), City, United (twice) and Spurs have reached European Cup finals with 2 CL wins and 2 EL wins. The 4 English teams are in the 6 favourites to win the champions league. The 76 to 85 period was a glorious era for English teams but the times we are in currently are just as good. It's no joke to be winning the league at the moment. 

 

 

The problem here,in my view,is that most of these teams are achieving this because of the wealth of the PL rather than any hard work.

[TheHowieLama]

4 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

The problem here,in my view,is that most of these teams are achieving this because of the wealth of the PL rather than any hard work.

If you are talking about the late 70's other we were always at or thereabouts the top of the money pile.

For the FSG hawks on selling your best player/sell to buy -

Keegan out - Dalglish, Souness and Hansen in. Net spend = 0

[No2]

The current side is brilliant but they need to win more, what they are being compared with is not to be fucked with. Salah, as good as he's been still has tonnes of players ahead of him which says it all. We need another big trophy to be compared with the others.

 

[VladimirIlyich]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

If you are talking about the late 70's other we were always at or thereabouts the top of the money pile.

For the FSG hawks on selling your best player/sell to buy -

Keegan out - Dalglish, Souness and Hansen in. Net spend = 0

Forest and Villa didnt pay fortunes,nor our blue brethren. The London clubs and Man U did though,although foreign clubs eclipsed all English clubs in wages. We competed because we earned it on the pitch. Chelsea and City didn't.

[TheHowieLama]

20 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

The London clubs and Man U did though,although foreign clubs eclipsed all English clubs in wages. 

I cannot remember many except for Wilkins and Jordan - both sold on to AC Milan, so probably correct bout wages.

[dockers_strike]

Through the 70s and 80s, we were the go to club for most players wanting to win trophies. We didnt pay big transfer fees, Toshack £110,000, Cormack £120,000 etc. I remember a number of clubs paying ever closer to £1m transfer fees while Liverpool were still doing £500,000 or thereabouts. How much did 'fatty' Robbo, BUPAman Gillespie, Johnny Wark and a few others cost? Even Lawro cost less than £1m.

 

Francis went to Forest for a £1m and Bob nearly fainted. City paid nearly £1.5m for Daley who was a complete flop. You look through this list from the 60's onwards and we dont appear as a record breaking buyer until Collymore in 95.

 

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/england_footy/english-domestic/british-football-player-transfer-records/

 

Im sure our players had relatively good wages but dont think we were top payers by any stretch. Collymore said the shite offered him a grand a week more than us. It's reputed the club doubled Keegan's wage every year or so without him asking. Admittedly we did sign him for peanuts and paid him them for his first season at least! Emlyn Hughes said when we won the European Cup for the first time, he came out with about 450 quid after tax for the feat.

 

chelsea fans in particular are fond of saying old man Moores bankrolled our success through the 60s to the 90s which is just bollocks. They would say that wouldnt they, despite the fact Moores' team was the shite and he only held a handful of shares in Liverpool.

 

All of it paid for by big crowds and 20+ years of continuous European football, something chelsea fans pre Abramovic would have been totally unfamiliar with. Sorry, went a bit off piste there!

 

 

 

 

[stringvest]

39 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Through the 70s and 80s, we were the go to club for most players wanting to win trophies. We didnt pay big transfer fees, Toshack £110,000, Cormack £120,000 etc. I remember a number of clubs paying ever closer to £1m transfer fees while Liverpool were still doing £500,000 or thereabouts. How much did 'fatty' Robbo, BUPAman Gillespie, Johnny Wark and a few others cost? Even Lawro cost less than £1m.

 

Francis went to Forest for a £1m and Bob nearly fainted. City paid nearly £1.5m for Daley who was a complete flop. You look through this list from the 60's onwards and we dont appear as a record breaking buyer until Collymore in 95.

 

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/england_footy/english-domestic/british-football-player-transfer-records/

 

Im sure our players had relatively good wages but dont think we were top payers by any stretch. Collymore said the shite offered him a grand a week more than us. It's reputed the club doubled Keegan's wage every year or so without him asking. Admittedly we did sign him for peanuts and paid him them for his first season at least! Emlyn Hughes said when we won the European Cup for the first time, he came out with about 450 quid after tax for the feat.

 

chelsea fans in particular are fond of saying old man Moores bankrolled our success through the 60s to the 90s which is just bollocks. They would say that wouldnt they, despite the fact Moores' team was the shite and he only held a handful of shares in Liverpool.

 

All of it paid for by big crowds and 20+ years of continuous European football, something chelsea fans pre Abramovic would have been totally unfamiliar with. Sorry, went a bit off piste there!

 

 

 

 

We spunked £110K on Alun Evans, the biggest fee for a teenager at that time.  Bit of a disappointment he was.  But overall, we've never had the biggest wallets.

[an tha]

I love and partake in the arguments about how the squad is or isn't deep enough etc and i think it is an interesting debate - but it is very much one that is unique to modern day football and it of course never took place in the 70's/80's.

 

Of course it was a different time, a different age - only 1 and then eventually 2 subs allowed and players who weren't playing 1st team footy played in the Central League for the reserves....but you never heard people debate the 'back up' at centre half like we do in todays age of a 'squad'.

 

Take for example when Colin Irwin was brought in to play away at Bayern Munich in 81 in the European Cup Semi...Richard Money also started that game in defence - there are two players who with the all due respect were never going to be Liverpool stalwarts and who both had very mediocre careers....but they came in when needed (not often) and it was just accepted they were reserves who came in to plug gaps.....Howard Gayle of course famously played in that game too 1 of a career 5 appearances for us. I think back then in Europe you could name 5 subs unlike in domestic competition so we saw players from the reserves on the bench in Europe.

 

Avi Cohen who only made a handful of appearances is another mediocre player that comes to mind...he famously scored an O.G. and for us in one of his rare appearances against Villa.

 

For a couple of years or so David Hodgson was pretty much our back up striker in the early 80's... I had to look it up to see how many games he featured in - it was 48, scoring the grand total of 4 goals....his career when he left and he was only 24 years old did not get any better.

 

But there was no squad mentallity really then and people didn't debate the depth/quality of the back up like we do now in this different era with different demands and of course where squads are bigger and utilised more.

 

The resting players and giving minutes to those who 'need them' or just playing a 'weakened' team in the domestic cups did not exist either, even with replays - it was pretty much the 'first 11' even for 2nd and 3rd replays.

 

It would have been great if here existed in 1981 to read and get stuck in to the discussion about Irwin and Money starting away in Munich v Bayern and Gayle being on bench!...or when Hodgson was starting games enjoying the debate about his lack of goals!

 

Of course it is a squad game now and it has all changed massively - the days of the same small group of players playing pretty much every week are long gone and the focus of people discussing squad balance, depth etc is totally reasonable and relevant - things are totally different to days when 1 sub was named and if you lost a centre half in a game and you had a striker on bench you just adapted...but it is also a part of why (there are many, many other reasons too of course) it is so hard to compare teams from different eras.

 

Here's a great example of what would have been called 'squad depth' in the 87/88 season.....Who was our forward back up to the brilliant Beardsley and Aldridge?....

 

Answer: John Durnin, Alan Irvine and for half the season Paul Walsh....Not exactly sparkling was it! OK Dalglish could just about still do a turn then (but think he made about 2 or 3 appearances tops) and maybe Craig Johnston could slot in there - but again imagine if here existed and it was an attacking depth conversation!

 

 

[JoeBuck01]

I was lucky enough to watch us in the 70s and 80s and I would say it's the best team ever. My  Dad, who has been going since the mid 50s, thinks the same.

 

The late 70s team was sublime but people would get on Ray Kennedy's back for being lazy, or David Johnson's back for being crap. Even Souness got stick in his first few seasons.

 

The 87-90 team soon became  out muscled and therefore outplayed by the likes of Arsenal ( remember when they came to Anfield in the League Cup and blew us away).

 

Last season aside, can't see it happening with this team,  but they need to follow up with more of the same trophies over the next 3 years to make this valid.

[dockers_strike]

4 hours ago, stringvest said:

We spunked £110K on Alun Evans, the biggest fee for a teenager at that time.  Bit of a disappointment he was.  But overall, we've never had the biggest wallets.

Yes, it was. He did score a hattrick against half the West Germany side when we played Bayern at Anfield in the Fairs Cup and his goal in the away leg was voted as the goal of the season by West German viewers. He'll always have that.