Plymouth Shootings

[Elite]

1 hour ago, Dr Nowt said:

Having had a Google I’ve added this to my never ending need to buy pile. I was recommended this one by a criminal psychology lecturer, which I keep meaning to get hold of. 
 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0141046864/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_4?smid=A3A72FJ03Q9CJT&psc=1

I have loads of books sat idle in my Kindle. Doesn't help that I only read in bed and usually fall asleep after reading about 30 pages.

 

I estimate I'll get into reading that Evil book in the year 2034. 

[Dr Nowt]

4 minutes ago, Elite said:

I have loads of books sat idle in my Kindle. Doesn't help that I only read in bed and usually fall asleep after reading about 30 pages.

 

I estimate I'll get into reading that Evil book in the year 2034. 

Pretty sure I’ve rewired my brain to only be able to read an infinite amount of short chunks, each bread-crumbing off into other short chunks, on a smartphone. Can do that for hours on end without ever feeling sleepy. Give me a book with something of any great substance to read and like you I’m nodding off immediately. I was a better reader at 6 years old than I am nowadays.

[Elite]

Just now, Dr Nowt said:

Pretty sure I’ve rewired my brain to only be able to read an infinite amount of short chunks, each bread-crumbing off into other short chunks, on a smartphone. Can do that for hours on end without ever feeling sleepy. Give me a book with something of any great substance to read and like you I’m nodding off immediately. I was a better reader at 6 years old than I am nowadays.

To be fair, those Mr. Men books were captivating.

[Champ]

1 minute ago, Dr Nowt said:

Pretty sure I’ve rewired my brain to only be able to read an infinite amount of short chunks, each bread-crumbing off into other short chunks, on a smartphone. Can do that for hours on end without ever feeling sleepy. Give me a book with something of any great substance to read and like you I’m nodding off immediately. I was a better reader at 6 years old than I am nowadays.

I’m very similar. I used to read, not hugely but I did but have barely read a book since my first depressive episode nearly 10 years ago.

I try from time to time but it’s a real effort

[Dr Nowt]

1 minute ago, Champ said:

I’m very similar. I used to read, not hugely but I did but have barely read a book since my first depressive episode nearly 10 years ago.

I try from time to time but it’s a real effort

I finished one book in all of lockdown 1, and only then because I turned this thing in my hand off and buried it in the sofa cushions in the other room whenever I was reading it. 

[Champ]

On 14/08/2021 at 22:18, Elite said:

I'm confused what point you're trying to make in this thread. You don't think he's evil and you don't think he's mentally ill, so what do you think? Genuinely curious. Sent with peace (I'm not trying to antagonise you).

I’m thinking others have already covered it but my ‘point’ is about the difficulty most of us (humans) have processing appalling crimes committed by others and our need, either individually or collectively, to ‘other’ it by ascribing it to ‘evil’ or mental illness’

 

Based on my life and professional learning and experience ‘evil’ is not a term I would ever use to describe a person although, I don’t think I would ever use it myself, I can understand the use of it as a description of a crime.

 

We are all a mix of character traits and in the same way none of us are wholly ‘good’, none of us are wholly ‘evil’ either.

 

I tend to see the word ‘evil’ as one of those handy words tabloid headline writers go to describe crimes but it offers no explanation for that person/organisation’s actions and the reasons behind them.

 

And similarly, in the impulse to find reason for appalling actions, ‘mental illness’ offers a possible explanation when sometimes what has driven someone’s behaviour is a complex mix of experience, internalised beliefs and and the affirmation to break through the barriers of acceptable behaviour 

[Clem H Fandango]

22 minutes ago, Champ said:

I’m thinking others have already covered it but my ‘point’ is about the difficulty most of us (humans) have processing appalling crimes committed by others and our need, either individually or collectively, to ‘other’ it by ascribing it to ‘evil’ or mental illness’

 

Based on my life and professional learning and experience ‘evil’ is not a term I would ever use to describe a person although, I don’t think I would ever use it myself, I can understand the use of it as a description of a crime.

 

We are all a mix of character traits and in the same way none of us are wholly ‘good’, none of us are wholly ‘evil’ either.

 

I tend to see the word ‘evil’ as one of those handy words tabloid headline writers go to describe crimes but it offers no explanation for that person/organisation’s actions and the reasons behind them.

 

And similarly, in the impulse to find reason for appalling actions, ‘mental illness’ offers a possible explanation when sometimes what has driven someone’s behaviour is a complex mix of experience, internalised beliefs and and the affirmation to break through the barriers of acceptable behaviour 

In my line of work we process everything. Humans don't like seeing death or dealing with death for that matter, but someone has to. As for labelling someone evil or mentally unstable, its a crock of shit imo. I've seen enough sick shit to determine that that is a bullshit excuse and most officers would agree with me.

[Captain Howdy]

Ian Brady was evil

[mattyq]

On 15/08/2021 at 07:50, Rico1304 said:

Are all terrorists mentally ill then?  Someone who blows up a plane knowing there are kids on it? 

Definitely 

They're also evil

Maybe evil is a form of mental illness?

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Definitely 

They're also evil

Maybe evil is a form of mental illness?

I disagree. 

[mattyq]

1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

I disagree. 

In what respect?

 

[Rico1304]

11 minutes ago, mattyq said:

In what respect?

 

I think labelling someone ‘evil’ let’s them off and gives them an excuse.  
 

And ‘evil’ is very subjective.  

[mattyq]

On 14/08/2021 at 13:27, Champ said:

Where is the evidence that he had mental health issues?

The fact that he killed 5 people. I don't think that's done by somebody who's sane and rational. It's abnormal behaviour 

I don't think that this excuses the perpetrator or that he's not responsible for his actions and his actions were, no doubt, evil

 

[Rico1304]

8 minutes ago, mattyq said:

The fact that he killed 5 people. I don't think that's done by somebody who's sane and rational. It's abnormal behaviour 

I don't think that this excuses the perpetrator or that he's not responsible for his actions and his actions were, no doubt, evil

 

I’m a bit tired so would just suggest ‘Making Evil’ by Dr J Shaw.  

[Section_31]

You can have a personality disorder and that doesn't mean you're mentally ill, it just means you're not wired the same as others. Psychopaths have physically different brains to other people (smaller fear centres etc) and don't process empathy the same, if at all.

 

A psychopath would have no more trouble shooting a stranger than a 'normal' person would making a cup of tea.

[Champ]

27 minutes ago, mattyq said:

The fact that he killed 5 people. I don't think that's done by somebody who's sane and rational. It's abnormal behaviour 

I don't think that this excuses the perpetrator or that he's not responsible for his actions and his actions were, no doubt, evil

 

If you’re saying that he’s mentally ill that would indicate that he lacked capacity for rational decision and therefore possibly not responsible for his actions.

I still say that I’ve seen nothing yet to indicate that he was mentally unwell

[Mook]

I think whether he is evil is debatable but surely we can agree that the act of shooting a wee girl (or anyone else) in cold blood like that is evil.

 

The dictionary definition of evil is 'Profoundly immoral and wicked'. I don't see there can be any debate that what he did fits perfectly into that definition.

[Red Phoenix]

If a person does good things and we find out that they've got mental illness it's usually accepted. We don't need no proof we just accept what they've said. To ask for proof would often be outrageous.

 

People and groups are also campaigning around the world to increase awareness of mental illness, and it's working.

 

If a person does bad things though and the idea of mental illness comes up it's not usually accepted. We need more than their word because we're not happy with what they've done so we need proof. We don't want them "let off the hook."

 

It's not just about people that do good things, it's also about people who do bad things, and it's also about people that do some good things and some bad things. People that do bad things don't have some type of innate immunity.

 

This is one of the reasons why I don't think we're anywhere near accepting the reality of mental illness properly.

 

Our world is ran by cronies, authoritarians and fascists that parts of our populations usually elected themselves, wars are constantly waged to fuel the greed of self serving elites, people are living in poverty all around the world, we're using up the resources of the planet and destroying our environment to the point that we're not currently sure if future generations are even going to have any type of good place to live in in the future at all.

And yet we're still questioning the idea of mental illness in so many cases, when it could be said that our species is collectively ill. If you do bad things though, your claim is voided.

[Pidge]

Access to a shotgun is something he will have wanted and had to actively maintain, through and despite previously violent threats and outbursts leading to the police suspending his licence. Not sure I'd be willing to accept that this man was helplessly under the influence of a mental condition. 

 

However, I think any situation leading to someone ending the lives of others and themselves must be seated in some pretty significant trauma and mental anguish. Depression may well have played it's part in terms of the loss of perspective.

 

Guess that's why they call it tragedy. But we don't need every one played out for us, the most important issue is can innocent people be more protected from such things in the future.

[mattyq]

On 16/08/2021 at 21:43, Champ said:

If you’re saying that he’s mentally ill that would indicate that he lacked capacity for rational decision and therefore possibly not responsible for his actions.

I still say that I’ve seen nothing yet to indicate that he was mentally unwell

Not necessarily 

Yourself and myself and plenty of others on the site have had our struggles with depression and I don't think it's adversely affected our capacity for rational decision making. Think it's more affected the capacity to carry out the decision making as in I have to get up this morning... can't face it back to bed etc

Obviously, something more drastic like severe schizophrenia would affect how responsible you are for your actions and I do agree that there is no evidence in this case

[Bjornebye]

Plymouth shooting: Gunman had mental health support in lockdown https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58248391
 

 

[Section_31]

29 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Not necessarily 

Yourself and myself and plenty of others on the site have had our struggles with depression and I don't think it's adversely affected our capacity for rational decision making. Think it's more affected the capacity to carry out the decision making as in I have to get up this morning... can't face it back to bed etc

Obviously, something more drastic like severe schizophrenia would affect how responsible you are for your actions and I do agree that there is no evidence in this case

Yep. As I posted earlier, the terms personality disorder and mental illness are often conflated but they're not the same. 

 

To go wild with a gun if you're mentally ill you'd have to be extremely mentally ill I'd say, like in the grip of a deep psychosis of hallucinating or whatever.

 

If you've got a personality disorder it could be argued that there's nothing technically wrong with you, you just think differently and may not have empathy with you fellow human beings. (Pretty sure I read somewhere that a personality disorder is the only condition which a doctor isn't ethically obliged to try and treat you, because it's not technically an affliction.)

 

With a serious personality disorder, if the circumstances were such, you might shoot people the way you or I would shoot imaginary people on operation wolf, and in your own mind that'd be perfectly acceptable to you under certain circumstances.

 

Questions of good and evil are complex but in this instance it's more a case of whether said person is a danger to other people and if so, a cage is called for.

 

 

 

[Champ]

3 hours ago, mattyq said:

Not necessarily 

Yourself and myself and plenty of others on the site have had our struggles with depression and I don't think it's adversely affected our capacity for rational decision making. Think it's more affected the capacity to carry out the decision making as in I have to get up this morning... can't face it back to bed etc

Obviously, something more drastic like severe schizophrenia would affect how responsible you are for your actions and I do agree that there is no evidence in this case

Definitely. There’s a whole continuum on the mental ‘health’ spectrum, from mental ‘distress’ type conditions like anxiety and depression, which can affect a person’s perceptions of themselves and ability to function right through to psychotic type mental illness where a person may experience thought disorder and sensory hallucinations dramatically altering their sense of themselves or others