Man Utd Fans

[VladimirIlyich]

1 minute ago, dockers_strike said:

I think until a verified word for word transcript of what Souey said is produced, it's putting one's own slant on his comments saying he effectively said this or that.

 

I'll be honest and say I dont recollect him using those words about 'good owners' or putting their 'own money' in. Generalising, he said the owners have not prevented the club spending nearly a million quid. His point was the fans have used the Euro League debacle as a vehicle to resurrect the glazer out movement because they havent won a title for getting on 8 years.

 

I totally agree with him on that.

I do wholeheartedly agree on this too.

[Jockey]

The revenue has tripled under the Glazers - and that is down to the fact that they have set up regional marketing that has built on their world wide reputation. So one of the fundamental arguments underpinning the protests on Saturday 'that we don't need an oligarch' is because of the Glazers. The fact that they have spent a billion on players is relevant - it absolutely is. Their arguments are that the Glazers are hampering them through taking money out - whereas the argument is not so straightforward. How can you be hampered when you are spending so much money on the team? 

 

And those who are supporting United - are also ignoring, either deliberately or simply seeing it ass irrelevant - the  complete and utter lack of support from United supporters when we were in a much worse position, because of a leveraged buyout in 2010. That suggest to me that they are not against leverage buyouts - otherwise they would have supported us. It is just them, and their club. This isn't a wider argument for football ownership. It is them taking advantage of the current attitude towards protests (violent ones) and venting their frustrations. 

 

I am not in the slightest bit arsed about whether it was a legitimate protest or not - because if it had of been us protesting it would been laughed at, and ridiculed - and we know that because that is what happened between 2007 - 2010. If Saudi Arabia took them over tomorrow - not one United fan would protest against that. So, forgive if I don't want to include their tantrums into a wider discussion about football ownership. 

[Wezza]

Souness could have calmed things down by simply planting a flag in the centre circle 

[Josef Svejk]

54 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

The issue was why they were protesting.  Souness effectively said the Glazers were good owners and had put in their own money. All he did was talk down an issue that will see clubs go bankrupt and because critical thinking is not taught or promoted in people, the vast majority will take his point and make it their own without looking into it.  You just have to look at this thread where the amount Man Utd have spent on signings has been posted as some kind of "what are they moaning about" point?  Utterly missing the point. 

 

We all know this wouldn't have happened had Utd been where Man City are right now, but that is the case for every club and fan in the world. If we were winning the league under Hicks and Gillett we'd have seen virtually no protests either.  It's a pointless debate because we all know that's the nature of football.  Almost everyone here slaughtering Gary Neville would have absolutely loved him if he was the Liverpool right back for 16 years.  The vast majority of Liverpool fans saying he's a hypocrite and wrong, would have been backing the exact same comments to the hilt had he been "one of ours".  That's football.  As a discussion point it's meaningless.

 

The real and important point was how the Glazers had funded the buyout.  Old Trafford is falling apart due to a lack of investment, and they have paid over £1billion servicing the loans for the buyout.  THAT'S the real issue.  And Souness dismissed it.  So when someone says he was the only one talking sense, I'm quite happy that I am right to challenge that view.

That's absolute bollocks. Never in the history of broadcasting - while live mass violence is ongoing, in part directed at the actual broadcasters - have people thought: You know what, ignoring all that abuse and those flares and any potential threat to the safety of all those around us, we really ought to consider the legitimacy of these drunk fuckers' supposed grievances!

 

Souness wasn't having it. And even if he talks shite about the Man United ownership, he's under no obligation to take seriously the idea of just peaceful protest in that instance. Neville and Carragher were cultivating that lie for their own reasons. But it remains a fucking lie. As all available footage illustrates. And Souness was the only member of the Sky team who questioned it.

[dave u]

20 hours ago, JohnnyH said:

So what's the alternative? 

 

Surely if there is to be any chance of something changing then fans need to work together as much as practicable?  Do we just leave it as it is?  I'm almost done with this shitshow and so if something doesn't change I fear we all will?

 

 

 

There isn't an alternative. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

[dave u]

Also, to clarify. I get why United fans want the Glazers out and why they look at it and think "that billion quid they've trousered could have gone on signings".

 

I'm just saying, fuck them. I'm not backing their 'cause' or sympathising with their 'plight' and I'm not going to say what they did on Sunday was ok.

[Josef Svejk]

2 minutes ago, dave u said:

Also, to clarify. I get why United fans want the Glazers out and why they look at it and think "that billion quid they've trousered could have gone on signings".

 

I'm just saying, fuck them. I'm not backing their 'cause' or sympathising with their 'plight' and I'm not going to say what they did on Sunday was ok.

We should get behind Valencia fans' attempts to get rid of Neville's billionaire pal, fellow Salford City investor, and former employer, Peter Lim.

 

Any thoughts on that, Citizen Neville? 

[dave u]

2 hours ago, RedKnight said:

From a City fan so I'll take no moralising from him.

 

That being said, he has fucking nailed it.

[No2]

Another issue annoying me is the stadium. Our owners didn't pay for the rebuild, neither did Tottenham's or Arsenal's, the clubs themselves (as in the fans) paid for the work. Arsenal and Spurs and probably ourselves felt the affects of that in the transfer budget. Those scruffs wouldn't accept the Halaand money going on a new roof. They want a new roof and Halaand and Lewandowski while their at it.

[lifetime fan]

1 hour ago, dockers_strike said:

I think until a verified word for word transcript of what Souey said is produced, it's putting one's own slant on his comments saying he effectively said this or that.

 

I'll be honest and say I dont recollect him using those words about 'good owners' or putting their 'own money' in. Generalising, he said the owners have not prevented the club spending nearly a million quid. His point was the fans have used the Euro League debacle as a vehicle to resurrect the glazer out movement because they havent won a title for getting on 8 years.

 

I totally agree with him on that.

Man Utd fan Mark Ogden has criticised the fans more than any neutral I’ve heard speak about it so far. 

[JohnnyH]

1 hour ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Could it not be that both arguments have merit? But the way of dealing with them is not spewing anti scouse sentiment assaulting police officers and trying to do the same to ex Liverpool footballers?

Fine if they do.  But the significant one that the Glazers had funded the club themselves, when they've not put a penny in and instead loaded it with debt, was wrong.  Therefore, Souness was not the "only one talking sense".  That's my point.

[JohnnyH]

1 hour ago, Josef Svejk said:

That's absolute bollocks. Never in the history of broadcasting - while live mass violence is ongoing, in part directed at the actual broadcasters - have people thought: You know what, ignoring all that abuse and those flares and any potential threat to the safety of all those around us, we really ought to consider the legitimacy of these drunk fuckers' supposed grievances!

 

Souness wasn't having it. And even if he talks shite about the Man United ownership, he's under no obligation to take seriously the idea of just peaceful protest in that instance. Neville and Carragher were cultivating that lie for their own reasons. But it remains a fucking lie. As all available footage illustrates. And Souness was the only member of the Sky team who questioned it.

I'm not saying they should ignore the "mass violence" as you called it.  Report away on it all you want. In fact, just report on that and never mention the ownership issue if they want.  My issue, as I've had to say fucking repeatedly now, was that it was said Souness was the only one talking sense, when the most important part of what he said was completely and utterly factually wrong.  And I see you have even said that in your response to me?  So crack on. 

[JohnnyH]

1 hour ago, dave u said:

 

There isn't an alternative. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

 

1 hour ago, dave u said:

Also, to clarify. I get why United fans want the Glazers out and why they look at it and think "that billion quid they've trousered could have gone on signings".

 

I'm just saying, fuck them. I'm not backing their 'cause' or sympathising with their 'plight' and I'm not going to say what they did on Sunday was ok.

 

It's not about putting the genie back in the bottle.  It's about the next genie.  It's when Henry is done with us and flogs us for $2.5bn and another Glazer type buys us and then loads us with debt we can't service but this time we can't stop it in time and we end up in Administration and in League 2.  That's why this fight is important, even if it is them.  It's about forcing the PL to put a proper "fit and proper" process in place.  Nothing is ever achieved without protest.  We know that.  This is important.

 

"First they came for Man Utd, and I did nothing, because they're a bunch of cunts,

then they came for Arsenal, and I did nothing because.....etc, etc"

[Chris]

The more I think about it, the more those United fans remind me of the Trump voters on Jan 6. All they were missing were the red MUGA hats. 

Make United Great Again!
 

Let’s look at the (half serious) parallels shall we?

 

A mob whipped into a frenzy by an idol the rest of the country thinks is an absolute cunt. 
 

They’re feeling disenfranchised, they’re told they’re being ripped off, that their very identity has been taken away. 
 

They march on the seat of power, the symbolic home of the place they profess to love and want to take back from illegitimate occupants, chanting their protest songs on the way. 
 

They violently bypass a hugely undermanned security operation, gain access to the hallowed territory and proceed to wreak destruction along the way. Abusing and assaulting those who attempt to stand in their way. People are seriously hurt. Most of them are taking videos and selfies the whole time, absolutely revelling in being somewhere they shouldn’t. All the time saying “this is our house, not theirs”
 

When the cops eventually show up, the aggression is turned on them. The only reason there wasn’t deaths in this instance is because both sides weren’t armed to the teeth as they are in the US. 

The MUGA goal was to stop the football match, the MAGA goal was to prevent the certification of an election. 

 

In the aftermath, allies in the media sought to sell it as a peaceful protest, that they were simply passionate people who couldn’t take it anymore and we’re left with no other option. They just weren’t being heard!
 

The United fans actually have a lot in common with your proverbial Trump voter. They’ve been left behind. They’ve lost their identity. Once proud and dominant they’ve been surpassed by neighbours and rivals they mocked and derided throughout their lifelong era of dominance. A country/sport that once only existed to serve their needs now makes them feel like second class citizens. Now they’re just another group of disillusioned, vulnerable people seeking a figurehead that can take things back to the way they used to be. They don’t know what to do with that information. They aren’t used to it. They wanna Make United Great Again!
 

 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Chris said:

The more I think about it, the more those United fans remind me of the Trump voters on Jan 6. All they were missing were the red MUGA hats. 

Make United Great Again!
 

Let’s look at the (half serous) parallels shall we?

 

A mob whipped into a frenzy by an idol the rest of the country things is an absolute cunt. 
 

They’re feeling disenfranchised, they’re told they’re being ripped off, that their very identity has been taken away. 
 

They march on the seat of power, the symbolic home of the place they profess to take back from illegitimate occupants, chanting their protest songs on the way. 
 

They violently bypass a hugely undermanned security operation, gain access to the hallowed territory and proceed to wreak destruction along the way. Abusing and assaulting those who attempt to stand in their way. People are seriously hurt. Most of them are taking videos and selfies the whole time, absolutely revelling in being somewhere they shouldn’t. All the time saying “this is our house, not there’s”
 

When the cops eventually show up, the aggression is turned on them. The only reason there wasn’t deaths in this instance is because both sides weren’t armed to the teeth as they are in the US. 

Their MUGA goal was to stop the football match, the MAGA goal was to prevent the certification of an election. 

 

In the aftermath, allies in the media sought to sell it as a peaceful protest, that they were simply passionate people who couldn’t take it anymore and we’re left with no other option. 
 

The United fans have a lot in common with your proverbial Trump voter. They’ve been left behind. They’ve lost their identity. Once proud and dominant they’ve been surpassed by neighbours and rivals they mocked and derided throughout their period dominance. A country/sport that once only existed to serve their needs now makes them feel like second class citizens. Now they’re just another group of disillusioned, vulnerable people seeking a figurehead that can take things back to the way they used to be. They don’t know what to do with that information. They aren’t used to it. They wanna Make United Great Again!
 

 

They wanna have a war to keep us on our knees, They wanna have a war to stop us buying Japanese...

[Jockey]

8 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

"First they came for Man Utd, and I did nothing, because they're a bunch of cunts,

then they came for Arsenal, and I did nothing because.....etc, etc"

First they came for Liverpool and they did nothing, because to them we are a bunch of self pity, whinging bin dippers. What you are arguing for is a root and branch change in the ownership rules from the government down - what Manchester United fans are arguing is that they want that extra billion spent on Mbappe. They don't want rules to be tightened for everyone - they have never cared for anyone else, they want the Glazers gone because they blame them for where they are. 

 

I don't understand why you can't see the self-serving nature of their 'protest'? That in itself is fine - but the violence is being glossed over because they are pitching it as a protest against greed in football and I, and a few others don't think that is true. 

[dave u]

Just now, Jockey said:

First they came for Liverpool and they did nothing, because to them we are a bunch of self pity, whinging bin dippers. What you are arguing for is a root and branch change in the ownership rules from the government down - what Manchester United fans are arguing is that they want that extra billion spent on Mbappe. They don't want rules to be tightened for everyone - they have never cared for anyone else, they want the Glazers gone because they blame them for where they are. 

 

I don't understand why you can't see the self-serving nature of their 'protest'? That in itself is fine - but the violence is being glossed over because they are pitching it as a protest against greed in football and I, and a few others don't think that is true. 

 

I was going to reply to Johnny but there's no need as this says everything that I wanted to.

[aws]

I think the Glazers have done a great job. 

[Tony Moanero]

People are still talking about these cunts?

[JohnnyH]

Just now, Jockey said:

First they came for Liverpool and they did nothing, because to them we are a bunch of self pity, whinging bin dippers. What you are arguing for is a root and branch change in the ownership rules from the government down - what Manchester United fans are arguing is that they want that extra billion spent on Mbappe. They don't want rules to be tightened for everyone - they have never cared for anyone else, they want the Glazers gone because they blame them for where they are. 

 

I don't understand why you can't see the self-serving nature of their 'protest'? That in itself is fine - but the violence is being glossed over because they are pitching it as a protest against greed in football and I, and a few others don't think that is true. 

I'm not ignoring you.  You've just entirely missed my point and I just can't bring myself to type the same stuff over and over again if people just want to write what they think instead of responding to the point I'm making.  

 

To clarify one thing though, I don't give a fuck about Man Utd. I'll always rather they exist as without actual rivalry, then the football becomes boring.  But I'm happy for them to remain in huge debt, ideally where they can't buy any top players and always finish 12th.  It's not about that. 

[JohnnyH]

3 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

I was going to reply to Johnny but there's no need as this says everything that I wanted to.

Urgghhhhhh

 

Grand.  I'm off for a bite of lunch and will go back to the funny pics thread for a while until this thread dissapears off the front page and out of my mind.

[TheHowieLama]

38 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

Fine if they do.  But the significant one that the Glazers had funded the club themselves, when they've not put a penny in and instead loaded it with debt, was wrong.  Therefore, Souness was not the "only one talking sense".  That's my point.

The club cost them at the time I think 800 mil.

500 was debt - pretty sure they came up with the other 300.

 

 

[Jockey]

8 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

I'm not ignoring you.  You've just entirely missed my point and I just can't bring myself to type the same stuff over and over again if people just want to write what they think instead of responding to the point I'm making.  

 

To clarify one thing though, I don't give a fuck about Man Utd. I'll always rather they exist as without actual rivalry, then the football becomes boring.  But I'm happy for them to remain in huge debt, ideally where they can't buy any top players and always finish 12th.  It's not about that. 

I didn't say you had! I think you are missing everyone's point though - If this was against the Glazers ownership via the rules that allowed it to happen, we'd be supportive. But we don't think it was. And that is where we agree with Souness. 

 

I would add - that if we, or anyone else wants to come up with a policy argument for altering the ownership rules to stop leverage buyouts, I'd be very supportive and back it - even if that was written by a United fan. I just don't accept that this is what they are arguing for. 

[SlugTrail]

16 hours ago, Dave D said:

 Leave your morals at the door  

 

     

That line there Dave sums modern football up.

[Jockey]

2 minutes ago, SlugTrail said:

That line there Dave sums modern football up.

And the Grafton to be fair!