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TheDrowningMan

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The balance of power hasn't moved away from the big clubs. The 12 from the ESL maybe keeping a low profile but are you taking power away from Munich, PSG? No, of course you are not. 

 

And give it time. Once memories fade and they'll remind you how big they are. I am all for individual TV rights. I don't see why we should pay for anyone else anymore. 

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41 minutes ago, navbasi said:

European Super League: Uefa under pressure to ditch Champions League coefficient safety net

 

The collapse of the Super League has led to a power shift away from Europe’s elite clubs and now the European Leagues and figures in the European Club Association — which is now without any representatives from the 12 clubs who joined the Super League — are poised to launch an effort to change the access system planned for 2024.

 

If such a system had been in place now it would have meant Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur, who finished in eighth and sixth place in the Premier League respectively, qualifying for the Champions League last season ahead of fifth-place Leicester City.

Lars Christer-Olsson, the outgoing president of the European Leagues, said before his final board meeting: “There are still open questions concerning access to the competition based on coefficients.”

 

One ECA board member told The Times that there was a strong feeling that the extra guaranteed places should be given to the likes of Celtic, Rangers and Ajax for winning their respective leagues rather than handed to the elite clubs based on historical performances over the previous five years.

 

The balance of power in the ECA — the only clubs’ organisation that Uefa recognises — has shifted significantly away from the elite teams after the 12 clubs involved in the Super League resigned en masse after joining the Super League.

 

Intriguingly, Uefa left the door open for the access plan to change when it announced the new format on Monday.

 

It said then: “Further decisions regarding matters such as the rebalancing of the access list, match dates, seeding system, format for the finals, coefficients and financial distribution will be made by the end of the year and potential adjustments to the format approved today could still be made if necessary.”

Them 12 clubs will be back in the ECA pretty quickly. It's down to UEFA who know they are the cash cows that need milked. And all the fans defending them now will be calling them cunts within months

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2 hours ago, Rushies tash said:

Punishthe6 trending on Twitter. Unsurprisingly, lots of Everton fans, but also - weirdly - West Ham, who seem to also have alot to say on the matter. They're trawling up lots of cases of fines and points docked in the past. I might be wrong, but were any rules actually broken over the past few days?

"They broke the fackin morul code"

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I would love the " big six" to fuck off the Premier League and announce we are joining the Football League. Imagine the TV contract we could get for the 72 Clubs and beyond, get Celtic and Rangers in there and leave the 14 smart arse PL  Clubs without a pot to piss in.  

 

We're all laughing at Everton ......

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4 hours ago, Rushies tash said:

Punishthe6 trending on Twitter. Unsurprisingly, lots of Everton fans, but also - weirdly - West Ham, who seem to also have alot to say on the matter. They're trawling up lots of cases of fines and points docked in the past. I might be wrong, but were any rules actually broken over the past few days?

The other PL clubs could try and punish the 6 under a rule of bringing the PL into disrepute. To be honest, I wouldnt put it past the 14 although I wouldnt be surprised if they didnt.

 

Make no mistake though, this will embolden the 14. They'll hold the 6 to randsom now until 1 or more of the 14 qualify for European football, particularly the CL until they find out how taxing it is flying off to Russia for a wednesday night game then being scheduled for a Saturday 12.30 game.

 

Wouldnt surprise me to see any of the 6 next season involved in Europe to get shitty fixtures after playing away in Europe. What's that you say, the PL clubs dont schedule the games, 2 guys do it on a laptop? Yes they do but just watch what happens. There's been too many instances in the past of blatant fixture manipulation, everton at home for 1st game of the season every year in an 7 or 8 year run? Yeah, just co incidence apparently!

 

The tail of the Premier League will make the 6 dance to their tune. And all the oppo fans will say tough shit. Yeah, whatever.

3 hours ago, Jockey said:

The balance of power hasn't moved away from the big clubs. The 12 from the ESL maybe keeping a low profile but are you taking power away from Munich, PSG? No, of course you are not. 

 

And give it time. Once memories fade and they'll remind you how big they are. I am all for individual TV rights. I don't see why we should pay for anyone else anymore. 

It might not have for the 6 European clubs although I dont know whether there was the same uproar and media orchestrated outrage as in England.

 

But this will most certainly strengthen the hand of the 14 who in my opinion have far too much power. Yo yo clubs like Norwich and Watford having the same say on things like tv rights etc? Nah, Im not having it.

 

The 14 refused 5 subs in the PL when just about every other league ok'd it. That alone tells you what a vindictive shower of bastards they are. Having cunts like steve parish preening himself on national tv and radio, can you imagine what that cunt will be like when we next visit Palace? That fat cunt allardyce who only came back to get west brom out of the shit is shouting from the rooftops deduct points and fine the 6. Oh and ban their owners too (which sadly a lot of our fans are actually on board with as well). Once a gobshite, always a gobshite.

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I'm still surprised about how badly this was managed and also how quickly they gave up.

Surely they would have known about the fan backlash, which is why they kept it quiet and went with the shock announcement.  So in that case, why the hell did they not have all the details sorted out and as ready to go as possible?

Also they knew there was going to be a fan backlash, but didn't care anyway when working through the idea, so why did they all of a sudden care so much and then give up so quickly?  They could have just said, fuck it, we're doing it anyway, and people would have had to get used to it.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

I'm still surprised about how badly this was managed and also how quickly they gave up.

Surely they would have known about the fan backlash, which is why they kept it quiet and went with the shock announcement.  So in that case, why the hell did they not have all the details sorted out and as ready to go as possible?

Also they knew there was going to be a fan backlash, but didn't care anyway when working through the idea, so why did they all of a sudden care so much and then give up so quickly?  They could have just said, fuck it, we're doing it anyway, and people would have had to get used to it.  

 

Spot on. That's how I feel too. I can't believe they didn't open up with a series of leaked stories about how shit uefa are, set the scene for why they were doing this other than greed. It has been that badly managed, you would be forgiven for thinking it was deliberate. 

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12 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

I'm still surprised about how badly this was managed and also how quickly they gave up.

Surely they would have known about the fan backlash, which is why they kept it quiet and went with the shock announcement.  So in that case, why the hell did they not have all the details sorted out and as ready to go as possible?

Also they knew there was going to be a fan backlash, but didn't care anyway when working through the idea, so why did they all of a sudden care so much and then give up so quickly?  They could have just said, fuck it, we're doing it anyway, and people would have had to get used to it.  

 

I think they fucked up not addressing where they saw the league after 2 or 3 seasons. For example, enabling promotion and relegation once the league was established, had been running 2 seasons and had increasing sponsors on board.

 

They could have pushed more on how much money would be gauranteed to other league or clubs, whether a 2nd European League would be established with further promotion and relegation and stating 80% of the crowd for their semis and final would go to the fans not the sponsors. Plus, capping ticket prices home and away for fans.

 

In other words, they were too light on detail relevant to the fans in my opinion.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I'm still surprised about how badly this was managed and also how quickly they gave up.

Surely they would have known about the fan backlash, which is why they kept it quiet and went with the shock announcement.  So in that case, why the hell did they not have all the details sorted out and as ready to go as possible?

Also they knew there was going to be a fan backlash, but didn't care anyway when working through the idea, so why did they all of a sudden care so much and then give up so quickly?  They could have just said, fuck it, we're doing it anyway, and people would have had to get used to it.  

 

It doesn’t make sense at all how it’s been done.  It seems like it was just posturing from the start to soften us up for something still to come.

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It's been a very odd two days, that's for sure.

 

On the one hand, I totally understand why Real Madrid, Barca and especially the Italian teams want to form a Super League. They are being left behind, little by little, financially, by the power of the Premier League. I don't think the average fan appreciates how vast the gulf is, but when you see a list of European teams by revenues and you realise that Sheffield United makes more money than AC Milan every year, it puts their position into stark relief.

 

What I don't understand is why the English teams went along with it, or especially drove it in the case of us and United. It is pretty clear that the eventual state of things is going to be that most fan/TV interest will be concentrated in a single league, it's always just a question of what that league is going to be. And for many years, it looked like at some point there would be a Super League of some sort, probably an expanded CL, on top of the pyramid of European football.

 

But we are probably 10-15 years away from the Premier League having a very good case that it already IS a Super League. When Wolves and Palace are making more money than Roma or Ajax, the battle is already won. It makes no sense in Liverpool's or United's position, when you can be the undisputed historical kings of a dominant Premier League as finances dictate Barca's and Real's and especially Juventus' declines, to trade that to be just another "founding member" with those clubs of a Super League. Especially if your fans are going to hate you for it.

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18 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

It's been a very odd two days, that's for sure.

 

On the one hand, I totally understand why Real Madrid, Barca and especially the Italian teams want to form a Super League. They are being left behind, little by little, financially, by the power of the Premier League. I don't think the average fan appreciates how vast the gulf is, but when you see a list of European teams by revenues and you realise that Sheffield United makes more money than AC Milan every year, it puts their position into stark relief.

 

What I don't understand is why the English teams went along with it, or especially drove it in the case of us and United. It is pretty clear that the eventual state of things is going to be that most fan/TV interest will be concentrated in a single league, it's always just a question of what that league is going to be. And for many years, it looked like at some point there would be a Super League of some sort, probably an expanded CL, on top of the pyramid of European football.

 

But we are probably 10-15 years away from the Premier League having a very good case that it already IS a Super League. When Wolves and Palace are making more money than Roma or Ajax, the battle is already won. It makes no sense in Liverpool's or United's position, when you can be the undisputed historical kings of a dominant Premier League as finances dictate Barca's and Real's and especially Juventus' declines, to trade that to be just another "founding member" with those clubs of a Super League. Especially if your fans are going to hate you for it.

It was about Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal and Spurs protecting themselves individually. The CAS exhonerating City and Saudis almost taking over Newcastle probably scared them to death. New super clubs with oil money that are bullet proof are threats to those 4 clubs. If they were in an almost closed league with stricter financial rules where they could rake in big money forever, they wouldn't have to worry about fucking Newcastle becoming maybe mega rich. Plus, they would have made lots of cash right away to lessen the effects of the pandemic.

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3 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

It's been a very odd two days, that's for sure.

 

On the one hand, I totally understand why Real Madrid, Barca and especially the Italian teams want to form a Super League. They are being left behind, little by little, financially, by the power of the Premier League. I don't think the average fan appreciates how vast the gulf is, but when you see a list of European teams by revenues and you realise that Sheffield United makes more money than AC Milan every year, it puts their position into stark relief.

 

What I don't understand is why the English teams went along with it, or especially drove it in the case of us and United. It is pretty clear that the eventual state of things is going to be that most fan/TV interest will be concentrated in a single league, it's always just a question of what that league is going to be. And for many years, it looked like at some point there would be a Super League of some sort, probably an expanded CL, on top of the pyramid of European football.

 

But we are probably 10-15 years away from the Premier League having a very good case that it already IS a Super League. When Wolves and Palace are making more money than Roma or Ajax, the battle is already won. It makes no sense in Liverpool's or United's position, when you can be the undisputed historical kings of a dominant Premier League as finances dictate Barca's and Real's and especially Juventus' declines, to trade that to be just another "founding member" with those clubs of a Super League. Especially if your fans are going to hate you for it.

The whole benefit for the English club owners was two fold - the guaranteed income, plus the increased value of the club for being part of a closed shop.

The US owners all have the history in American sport where the club values just go ever upwards because there is a limited number of teams.  They have a guaranteed income from shared revenue systems, salary caps to stop players earning too much (they still earn shitloads, because of the limited number thing) so basically it's profit and rising values without end.

There's 92 professional clubs in English football for a population of 55 million people.  There's 32 professional clubs in American Football for a population of 330 million.  The club owners want to get to a closed shop for the 750 million people in Europe, think of how much the value of the clubs could go up if there a top league of 20.   

 

On the income, we got £100 million the year we won the Champions League.  Next season we're likely looking at zero.  An average CL season where you qualify for the knockouts earns a club about £50 million.

Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs and especially Arsenal have all missed out on Champions League riches over the last few years.  You can see why the owners want to be able to guarantee they'll be taking part. 

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5 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I'm still surprised about how badly this was managed and also how quickly they gave up.

 

Also they knew there was going to be a fan backlash, but didn't care anyway when working through the idea, so why did they all of a sudden care so much and then give up so quickly?  They could have just said, fuck it, we're doing it anyway, and people would have had to get used to it.  

 

 

They misread the domestic political mood, hubris and scared of a hostile media. Johnson and Starmer to a lesser extent were always going to play the populist on football. Think Cameron I support Aston Ham and Blair I'm a Geordie I grew up watching wor Jackie. In Brexit times this was cranked up and ended with Johnson on zoom calls telling football supporter groups the bankers are shit and talking about all sorts of regulation. Starmer doing similar. I can't imagine oligarchs and venture capitalists were too thrilled to hear regulation. This emboldened the other 14 clubs to unite. I don't know how much fan backlash actually mattered to Liverpool and Manchester United. I think they were more caught out by the media whipping up a frenzy. It's also worth remembering everyone on here is looking at it from a Liverpool perspective. When smaller clubs hear Liverpool and Arsenal supporters talk about CAS, UEFA and oil money they laugh. In fact they actually enjoy seeing the big clubs who in their eyes regularly bully, and steal their best players, rig the rules in their favour getting a bloodied nose.

 It seems like they took advice from Agnelli and Perez as their "Football men" but they bully clubs and associations in Italy and Spain and are used to getting their own way. Not sure that prepared them for what was coming either. 

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28 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

 

They misread the domestic political mood, hubris and scared of a hostile media. Johnson and Starmer to a lesser extent were always going to play the populist on football. Think Cameron I support Aston Ham and Blair I'm a Geordie I grew up watching wor Jackie. In Brexit times this was cranked up and ended with Johnson on zoom calls telling football supporter groups the bankers are shit and talking about all sorts of regulation. Starmer doing similar. I can't imagine oligarchs and venture capitalists were too thrilled to hear regulation. This emboldened the other 14 clubs to unite. I don't know how much fan backlash actually mattered to Liverpool and Manchester United. I think they were more caught out by the media whipping up a frenzy. It's also worth remembering everyone on here is looking at it from a Liverpool perspective. When smaller clubs hear Liverpool and Arsenal supporters talk about CAS, UEFA and oil money they laugh. In fact they actually enjoy seeing the big clubs who in their eyes regularly bully, and steal their best players, rig the rules in their favour getting a bloodied nose.

 It seems like they took advice from Agnelli and Perez as their "Football men" but they bully clubs and associations in Italy and Spain and are used to getting their own way. Not sure that prepared them for what was coming either. 

 

I still don't think that explains it. 

I think they're smart enough to know media love to sensationalise stuff with all things to do with football.  They should have been prepared for all that as Barry says by massaging the messaging beforehand, but they didn't do anything of the sort.  FSG for example even bought the Boston Globe for Linda to run. 

  

And they are very experienced at dealing with politicians - there's no way they are scared of the Tories interfering in club ownership.  Even if they weren't fully expecting the bluster for Boris, they know a nice dinner and a few donations go a long way.

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They only backed out because a pair of shithouses who didn’t actually need to be in the ESL walked under the slightest pressure.

 

None of these clubs give a hoot about Fans, government or anything else.  The one thing they needed was to stay united and push it through. 

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I’m probably overthinking this given their track record for mishandling shit, but did they anticipate this and are they waiting for the PL to punish them before walking?

 

If they all resigned from the PL they could simply form a world league with its own governing body. I doubt the government could do much as they’d no longer be part of the domestic game.

 

It wouldn’t surprise me if this wasn’t at least the evolution of the idea, getting clubs from the American and Asian continent on board.

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2 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

It was about Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal and Spurs protecting themselves individually. The CAS exhonerating City and Saudis almost taking over Newcastle probably scared them to death. New super clubs with oil money that are bullet proof are threats to those 4 clubs. If they were in an almost closed league with stricter financial rules where they could rake in big money forever, they wouldn't have to worry about fucking Newcastle becoming maybe mega rich. Plus, they would have made lots of cash right away to lessen the effects of the pandemic.

In that case, why invite PSG, Man City and Chelsea?

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1 minute ago, joe_fishfish said:

In that case, why invite PSG, Man City and Chelsea?

Because the games against them are money-spinners and there would have been a greater measure of control. over their spending.

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2 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

It's been a very odd two days, that's for sure.

 

On the one hand, I totally understand why Real Madrid, Barca and especially the Italian teams want to form a Super League. They are being left behind, little by little, financially, by the power of the Premier League. I don't think the average fan appreciates how vast the gulf is, but when you see a list of European teams by revenues and you realise that Sheffield United makes more money than AC Milan every year, it puts their position into stark relief.

 

What I don't understand is why the English teams went along with it, or especially drove it in the case of us and United. It is pretty clear that the eventual state of things is going to be that most fan/TV interest will be concentrated in a single league, it's always just a question of what that league is going to be. And for many years, it looked like at some point there would be a Super League of some sort, probably an expanded CL, on top of the pyramid of European football.

 

But we are probably 10-15 years away from the Premier League having a very good case that it already IS a Super League. When Wolves and Palace are making more money than Roma or Ajax, the battle is already won. It makes no sense in Liverpool's or United's position, when you can be the undisputed historical kings of a dominant Premier League as finances dictate Barca's and Real's and especially Juventus' declines, to trade that to be just another "founding member" with those clubs of a Super League. Especially if your fans are going to hate you for it.

It's simple why the English clubs want it. There's 6 of them and we get 4 CL positions. There's isn't the competition in the other leagues. So the Italians and spanish want money now (and in AC Milan's case digging out of a hole).

 

Our owners have always hated the unpredictability of their revenue streams and this would address that. Their aim here is to increase the capital value of their asset - this would have done that in spades because of the guaranteed revenue it would bring, regardless of how things went on the pitch. Fsg had no interest in sporting integrity (or either Europe or our domestic league), it was just a simple economic position. They just assumed there was enough fans in their own fan base who'd be delighted with the guaranteed  ESL place and once the fan boys dragged a few others along, they'd have the support of our fan base. They must have expected the backlash elsewhere. 

 

FSG have shown consistently in their time here that they don't give 2 fucks if they think there's a buck in it. That's why they were there. 

1 hour ago, Denny Crane said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And back to the point of how badly this has been managed. I know he was probably seen as the lightening rod, but who the fuck thought it was a good idea to put this nut case at the front of the project and pretty much the only person who's tried to make a case for the ESL? It genuinely beggars belief. 

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41 minutes ago, Anubis said:

I’m probably overthinking this given their track record for mishandling shit, but did they anticipate this and are they waiting for the PL to punish them before walking?

 

If they all resigned from the PL they could simply form a world league with its own governing body. I doubt the government could do much as they’d no longer be part of the domestic game.

 

It wouldn’t surprise me if this wasn’t at least the evolution of the idea, getting clubs from the American and Asian continent on board.

You could be, but who knows with these fuckas.

I'm just loving the moral outrage of the 14.

It's a disgrace, hang on. Let's ban them, deduct points etc, this could help us.

It just stinks of last year's null and void/no relaxation shit.

Fuck the shite, ammers, Ferdinand and all the others cunts who are so outraged.

In fact, just fuck anyone who isn't us.

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It would have been interesting the see what would have happened if the ESL had been more ambitious and gone for an ESL league 1 and 2 each of 20 teams with promotion/relegation between the two? Would the likes of Everton or West Ham have turned down the chance? The big 6 could still have as the founding members negotiated a bigger slice of the pie and it might have taken the whole caboodle away from UEFA.

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3 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

It's been a very odd two days, that's for sure.

 

On the one hand, I totally understand why Real Madrid, Barca and especially the Italian teams want to form a Super League. They are being left behind, little by little, financially, by the power of the Premier League. I don't think the average fan appreciates how vast the gulf is, but when you see a list of European teams by revenues and you realise that Sheffield United makes more money than AC Milan every year, it puts their position into stark relief.

 

What I don't understand is why the English teams went along with it, or especially drove it in the case of us and United. It is pretty clear that the eventual state of things is going to be that most fan/TV interest will be concentrated in a single league, it's always just a question of what that league is going to be. And for many years, it looked like at some point there would be a Super League of some sort, probably an expanded CL, on top of the pyramid of European football.

 

But we are probably 10-15 years away from the Premier League having a very good case that it already IS a Super League. When Wolves and Palace are making more money than Roma or Ajax, the battle is already won. It makes no sense in Liverpool's or United's position, when you can be the undisputed historical kings of a dominant Premier League as finances dictate Barca's and Real's and especially Juventus' declines, to trade that to be just another "founding member" with those clubs of a Super League. Especially if your fans are going to hate you for it.

Worth remembering that Real and Barca receive a massive portion of the Spanish TV rights. And no matter how much the top 6 have pushed for more the other clubs vote against them as a block and they can't get shit past by votes. 

 

I mean they couldnt even get additional subs added as the other 14 knew it would be a advantage to deny them. 

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1 minute ago, DalyanPete said:

You could be, but who knows with these fuckas.

I'm just loving the moral outrage of the 14.

It's a disgrace, hang on. Let's ban them, deduct points etc, this could help us.

It just stinks of last year's null and void/no relaxation shit.

Fuck the shite, ammers, Ferdinand and all the others cunts who are so outraged.

In fact, just fuck anyone who isn't us.

I think lots of us keep saying it, but the game is absolutely rotten to the core. With the disparities created in the game with the PL and the CL, it makes more and more teams just desperate to cling on in there. Just get the money.

 

Do you rememeber a time if a team was shit in the top flight , it was a thing to suggest going down for a year and rebuilding was a good thing? Now it's just a disaster. Everyone needs to cling onto their position at all costs. Just look at the club Newcastle have become (and Everton to a lesser extent before moshiri's cash h the school of science accepting that anti-football of Joe royal and David moyes). Life is survival and nothing else, it doesn't even have to be good to watch, just survive. No cups, no ambition to improve, just survive.

 

Theres a number of clubs (may I suggest ours too, in fact probably most of the "6") that would prefer not to play in the EL because of the damage it will do to your squad and as a consequence impact your domestic targets. It's fucking mental, especially as a fan because these games are great. There's so much cash in the very top competitions, the rest have become nothing. I grew up with winning the league cup was a good thing - not with everything else, but a good thing. The fa cup was up there with the league and in many ways more glamouruous. And there were 3 European competitions and it was a great achievement to win any of them and people wanted to take part in them. Cash and greed has destroyed it all. Year by year the game is geared to have the joy sucked out of it to make some people rich. 

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